Retention of tickets

[penaltyfines]

I wonder when you stop needing to retain your ticket, i.e. if you are stopped with it and say you've destroyed it, is it ok?

(a) When you step from the train into a non-CTA
(b) When you exit the barriers, when they are taking tickets
(c) When you exit the barriers, when they are open
(d) When you exit the station

Quoting relevant parts of law/byelaws.

Also can anyone explain the need for a CTA over the byelaws, as I think it's relevant to the above.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't help wondering what the story behind this and your other thread is. The fact that you've suddenly named the station after several days. Has something new happened?

I'm no expert on laws/byelaws which probably means that you'll dismiss my opinions, but as an honest fare-paying passenger I can hand-on-heart say that I never get rid of a ticket before clearly leaving railway property unless it is collected by staff or swallowed by a barrier as finished with. In fact I usually end up emptying my wallet every so often at home and putting old tickets in the recycling. That's also the reason that I'll often put tickets in the gates even if they're locked open, so I know they will go for recycling.

 

[yorkie]

When I last got a train to London, there were loads of tickets left behind by Sunderland supporters going to the Arsenal game (including some airline style ones!), I did bring a couple in case anyone had problems at the barrier, but saw no evidence of that. I left them on the machine in case anyone realised they'd left theirs behind. I see loads of discarded tickets on trains, it's normal where people don't expect annoying barriers.

Obviously in Penalty Fare areas (Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTAs) exist for that purpose) it's a quite different matter and you need to be careful, after all those RPIs are out to catch people out, so I would be extremely careful to keep my ticket with me at all times in such an area. I find such travel more stressful as you're always worrying about losing your ticket, knowing there are RPIs just hoping you'll do that so you can pounce (and before anyone moans, yes I know some nice RPIs and I know only a minority want to catch people out, but they certainly do exist so don't try to tell me they don't!!!)

 

[penaltyfines]

I can't help wondering what the story behind this and your other thread is. The fact that you've suddenly named the station after several days. Has something new happened?

I'm no expert on laws/byelaws which probably means that you'll dismiss my opinions, but as an honest fare-paying passenger I can hand-on-heart say that I never get rid of a ticket before clearly leaving railway property unless it is collected by staff or swallowed by a barrier as finished with. In fact I usually end up emptying my wallet every so often at home and putting old tickets in the recycling. That's also the reason that I'll often put tickets in the gates even if they're locked open, so I know they will go for recycling.

Whilst true, I think ticket barriers, ticket checks, RPIs, CTAs, Penalty fares, etc etc are enough without being hassled for tickets once you've actually left the station!

 

[yorkie]

Also can anyone explain the need for a CTA over the byelaws, as I think it's relevant to the above.

This may answer your questions about CTAs

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst true, I think ticket barriers, ticket checks, RPIs, CTAs, Penalty fares, etc etc are enough without being hassled for tickets once you've actually left the station!

Agreed. They should be checking at the barrier line. However unless I see some photographs of the exact place in question it is difficult to comment.

 

[Old Timer]

This may answer your questions about CTAs

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed. They should be checking at the barrier line. However unless I see some photographs of the exact place in question it is difficult to comment.

Yorkie.
There is a smallish booking hall with a booking office. The booking hall open directly onto a standard sized pavement, where there is a Pelican crossing across the road.

The barrier line which used to be at the entrance to the passenger footbridge has been removed.

The station premises end at the front doors which face into the street. The RPIs stand immediately outside the doors, on the street. Leaving through the doors constitutes leaving Railway premises, and is considered sufficient to prove Intent under the 1889 Act.

The station building is situated on a railway overbridge.

Southall Station front

 

[yorkie]

If the RPIs are literally hiding around the corner, then it looks to me like entrapment. I'd also suggest that, if they are standing on the street, they'd need a police presence to have any authority to check tickets on a public street, and if not, then to detain people? (I'm not a legal expert though!)

I've never known anything like that before and do find it rather concerning.

I would certainly be reluctant to show tickets to RPIs on a public street, out of principal.

If RPIs do, as the OP alleges, barge into people and block their path, then I think that is totally unacceptable. If the RPIs merely ask to see the ticket and take no action if the customer declines (as they have no authority to act on a public street, surely?) then it does seem pointless without a police presence.

 

[premier01]

Yorkie.
There is a smallish booking hall with a booking office. The booking hall open directly onto a standard sized pavement, where there is a Pelican crossing across the road.

The barrier line which used to be at the entrance to the passenger footbridge has been removed.

The station premises end at the front doors which face into the street. The RPIs stand immediately outside the doors, on the street. Leaving through the doors constitutes leaving Railway premises, and is considered sufficient to prove Intent under the 1889 Act.

The station building is situated on a railway overbridge.

Southall Station front

On the streetmap view available on Google Maps it looks like there could be an RPI standing in the doorway of the station : -)

 

[Old Timer]

If the RPIs are literally hiding around the corner, then it looks to me like entrapment. I'd also suggest that, if they are standing on the street, they'd need a police presence to have any authority to check tickets on a public street, and if not, then to detain people? (I'm not a legal expert though!)

I've never known anything like that before and do find it rather concerning.

I would certainly be reluctant to show tickets to RPIs on a public street, out of principal.

If RPIs do, as the OP alleges, barge into people and block their path, then I think that is totally unacceptable. If the RPIs merely ask to see the ticket and take no action if the customer declines (as they have no authority to act on a public street, surely?) then it does seem pointless without a police presence.

Yorkie,

There is nothing new in this whatsoever.

We used to do this 40 years ago. Under the 1889 Act an authorised officer or railway servant can request to see a ticket at any time. There is no requirement for this to be done on Railway premises, and indeed where a booking office or other entrance opens out onto a public highway then there may be no way of staying on Railway premises.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have known successful Prosecutions where a person has been followed into the street. Indeed this is sometimes necessary in order to make a watertight Intent case under the 1889 Act, simply because a defence could be offered that the pseron had NOT left Railway premises and thus had NOT completed their journey. The passenger is still deemed to be "travelling" until the leave the station, otherwise they have no legal right to be there in Law.

I would also point out that our Plain Clothes observations involved following people to and from home as well as observing their homes.

Whilst you may not agree with this, it was necessary to in order to prove consistent Intent, and was accepted without question by the Magistrates.

The presence of a Police Officer is not required as the RPI has the same powers of detention as a Police Officer under the 1889 Act. Note however that under recent changes the Police no longer have the power under the 1889 Act and now arrest under the guise of the PACE Act although the RPI retains the 1889 Act authority.

Again the arrest may be made on the public highway.

 

[penaltyfines]

We used to do this 40 years ago. Under the 1889 Act an authorised officer or railway servant can request to see a ticket at any time. There is no requirement for this to be done on Railway premises, and indeed where a booking office or other entrance opens out onto a public highway then there may be no way of staying on Railway premises.

How about you add something useful to this thread.

The question is - when do you no longer need to retain your ticket.

Presuming the answer is the most liberal of the possibility, "whilst you're on railway premises", then, the question is whether they have the right to request a ticket outside of railway premises.

(a) IF THEY CAN - I can say "I no longer have it in my posession". If they arrest/caution me (again presuming that they have these powers), how exactly do you think they can prove I've committed any crime? I've got not requirement to hold a ticket, the burden of proof is on them to prove (1) I've travelled, and (2) done so without a ticket. Good luck with that.

(b) If they can't - trying to obstruct me/stop me passing isn't going to help the situation.

I would also point out that our Plain Clothes observations involved following people to and from home as well as observing their homes.

I think that has interesting RIPA implications, but I digress...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How about you add something useful to this thread.

The question is - when do you no longer need to retain your ticket.

Presuming the answer is the most liberal of the possibility, "whilst you're on railway premises", then, the question is whether they have the right to request a ticket outside of railway premises.

(a) IF THEY CAN - I can say "I no longer have it in my posession". If they arrest/caution me (again presuming that they have these powers), how exactly do you think they can prove I've committed any crime? I've got not requirement to hold a ticket, the burden of proof is on them to prove (1) I've travelled, and (2) done so without a ticket. Good luck with that.

(b) If they can't - trying to obstruct me/stop me passing isn't going to help the situation.



I think that has interesting RIPA implications, but I digress...

the RRA does not provide any geographical limits.

 

[moonrakerz]

This may answer your questions about CTAs

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

The "problem" with the DfT rules is that some TOCs (SWT for a start) have set up CTAs but don't actually call them that. Their logic being that if they don't call it a CTA then they don't have to follow DfT's rules..........
"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's - NOT a duck !"

I must confess that I usually carry a copy of the bit your link references - with Para 4.10 ringed in red, whenever I visit my "favourite" SWT station

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Moonrakerz- either it's a CTA or it isn't. There is no middle ground. I would be interested to see how you have come to the conclusion that there is and SWT are using it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Moonrakerz- either it's a CTA or it isn't. There is no middle ground. I would be interested to see how you have come to the conclusion that there is and SWT are using it.

Moonrakerz's logic appears to be that if he cannot get on a platform because of barriers then it is a de facto CTA, and he can henceforth refer to it as one.

AIUI the staff are simply using their discretion not to let him on the platform, which seems OK as far as the byelaws go?

 

[b0b]

The question is - when do you no longer need to retain your ticket.

so the answer appears to be you need to retain your ticket forever (* statue of limitations). If not it seems like you have to give the TOC back their property (the paper ticket) somehow. Not sure how you do that if the barrier does not retain the ticket - I guess turn it in at the ticket window if/when open. Ask them for a receipt so you can prove you turned in the ticket.

 

[Yew]

Threads like this annoy me, Railways staff rights should surely end at the end of railway property, except in 'hot persuit' scenarios?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Threads like this annoy me, Railways staff rights should surely end at the end of railway property, except in 'hot persuit' scenarios?

You seem to be saying they should end at the railway premises unless the shouldn't. You have to make your mind up. Evidently the government have decided there should be no geographical limits to the powers, but obviously that doesn't mean an RPI can choose someone at random in Westfield shopping centre and demand to see any tickets they have.

 

[Flamingo]

Wouldn't "reasonable suspicion" on the part of the RPI be acceptable in court as an excuse to stop?

If someone is observed coming off a train, and not observed to discard anything between leaving the train and the railway premises, then a case could be made that they were not in possession of a ticket, if stopped outside the railway premises by an authorised person (who under the 1889 act is an RPI).

I'm sure the old "I left it on the train" chestnut is so worn at this stage that it wouldn't stand up.

 

[b0b]

Presumably some level of "off premises" work does go on to catch people who donut hole or deliberately buy short tickets, to verify that they are continuing to do it.

And presumably a defence against donut holing is to produce tickets for the whole journey, however that could be many days/weeks of tickets to produce.

so it seems in that case, you have no choice but to retain any rail journey ticket until the statue of limitations runs out.

 

[Old Timer]

Presumably some level of "off premises" work does go on to catch people who donut hole or deliberately buy short tickets, to verify that they are continuing to do it.

And presumably a defence against donut holing is to produce tickets for the whole journey, however that could be many days/weeks of tickets to produce.

so it seems in that case, you have no choice but to retain any rail journey ticket until the statue of limitations runs out.

Looking at this with common sense and in a logical manner, a person leaving a station will have their ticket with them unless it has been collected (in which case there would be NO RPI), or they are inconsiderate litterers who choose to discard their ticket during the journey or on the floor at the station.

Any challenge would happen in the immediate vicinity of the station entrance, rather than down the High St or the shopping centre. On that basis once a person has left Railway premises and not been challenged then they are free to discard their ticket.

I can tell you now that asking someone to produce a valid ticket in the local Tesco or Sainsbury's is not a scenario contemplated other than in the mind of the complainant. The Magistrates would consider that the journey had long ended at that stage, and are unlikely to deal with the situation unless the person had run away and was apprehended away from the station. Remember that as fare evasion is a Criminal Offence, pursuit is permitted in such cases.

Knowing Southall as well as I do, I can anticipate that there were a number of people passing out through the entrance, and the challenge was made in the immediate vicinity of the station, which given the possible scenario would be seen as being reasonable.

It really is not the case that RPIs hang around in shop doorways further along the street waiting to trap unwary passengers. I anticipate that there was a group of RPIs outside the doors, and to be frank with you the whole subject is actually a non-issue turned intom a drama because the person who complained in the first place was in a bad humour, and took exception to being asked for their ticket as they left.

 

[alloneword100]

Sorry, I've just posted re this on the other thread, but quick version - surely the issue is when you cease to be a passenger? With no definition section the answer would normally be the dictionary definition, and that would end when you got off the train.

Is there any precedent on this in a reported case (meaning ones that got onto the law reports, rather than the newspapers)?

 

[yorkie]

Moonrakerz- either it's a CTA or it isn't. There is no middle ground. I would be interested to see how you have come to the conclusion that there is and SWT are using it.

My understanding is that SWT have no (official) CTAs, however they treat several of their stations in a manner in which one would expect a CTA to be treated, and not only that but they go even beyond that and do not adhere to the guidelines that state that arrangements must be made for people seeing friends/relatives onto the trains, by refusing to issue platform tickets.

SWT have some appalling practices that are not consistent with various guidelines, for example many of their staff apparently do not even know of the existence of the Routeing Guide, let alone adhere to it.

However this is not a surprise when you consider that SWT are part of the Stagecoach group, and when you look at Brian Souter's record, it's consistent with the sort of behaviour you expect from someone who treats his customers with contempt.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

My understanding is that SWT have no (official) CTAs, however they treat several of their stations in a manner in which one would expect a CTA to be treated, and not only that but they go even beyond that and do not adhere to the guidelines that state that arrangements must be made for people seeing friends/relatives onto the trains, by refusing to issue platform tickets.

So this is a complaint of the management of a station, not of nCTA's and CTA's?

And where are these rules that state platform tickets have to be issued? I;m not disbelieving you - just interested.

 

[MikeWh]

This may answer your questions about CTAs

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

4.10 At stations with a CTA, operators must make arrangements for people who are not travelling to be allowed into the part of the station covered by the CTA, if they have a good reason. This includes people who are meeting passengers, seeing passengers off or helping them with luggage, people helping passengers with disabilities, and people such as railway enthusiasts. The arrangements might include making platform tickets available at the ticket office or from a machine. People who are helping passengers with disabilities should not be charged to enter a CTA.

The above is from the link yorkie provided.

 

[Stigy]

I think that has interesting RIPA implications, but I digress...

Following somebody covertly dopesn't require RIPA authorisation

I can tell you now that asking someone to produce a valid ticket in the local Tesco or Sainsbury's is not a scenario contemplated other than in the mind of the complainant. The Magistrates would consider that the journey had long ended at that stage, and are unlikely to deal with the situation unless the person had run away and was apprehended away from the station. Remember that as fare evasion is a Criminal Offence, pursuit is permitted in such cases.

Unless the RPI suspects that a spouse/dependent pass is being used by spouses or dependents going to a place of work of course...

If the staff has seen an individual alight a train etc, I see no problem with asking them to produce a ticket off station premises. Bear in mind also that by the time the RPI has caught up with the person, it might just happen to be off the premises, not as a deliberate thing,l but just because the RPI might be built for comfort, not for speed!

Also, it bugs me somewhat that where ever a train route is discussed, it's called "Routeing" even ATOC say it! Surely proper English would be to lose the "e" and spell it as "Routing"...?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The above is from the link yorkie provided.

But Yorkie has stated SWT have no CTA's, so 4.10 does not apply.

Edit - even if 4.10 were to apply, it does not state that platform tickets HAVE to be sold - just that they are a suggested method of implementing 4.10.

 

[MikeWh]

Also, it bugs me somewhat that where ever a train route is discussed, it's called "Routeing" even ATOC say it! Surely proper English would be to lose the "e" and spell it as "Routing"...?

Rout becomes Routing, so Route becomes Routeing.

 

[b0b]

If the staff has seen an individual alight a train etc, I see no problem with asking them to produce a ticket off station premises. Bear in mind also that by the time the RPI has caught up with the person, it might just happen to be off the premises, not as a deliberate thing,l but just because the RPI might be built for comfort, not for speed!

Which is why the only safe answer is to retain tickets until the statue of limitations runs out, or return them to the TOC (as it is their property) and get for a receipt.

 

[MikeWh]

But Yorkie has stated SWT have no CTA's, so 4.10 does not apply.

Edit - even if 4.10 were to apply, it does not state that platform tickets HAVE to be sold - just that they are a suggested method of implementing 4.10.

I imagine that the intention is that without a CTA the rights protected by 4.10 should exist anyway. 4.10 protects those rights where a CTA is in place. SWT don't call what they do a CTA, but enforce the usual rules associated with a CTA without the protection granted by 4.10.

Or have I misinterpreted what is being said?

 

[Stigy]

Rout becomes Routing, so Route becomes Routeing.

I don't think it does to be honest. Can you think of any other words whereby you can have an "ing" after an "e"? All English words I know of you should remove the "e" to make way for the "ing". Achieveing? Achieving? The latter, obviously is correct.

I think the Americans have something to do with "routeing" so I'll let them off on this occasion. Dictionary.com.