Voyager experience not as bad as expected

[TT-ONR-NRN]

222 interior is better.

The 222s suffer from the same short saloons (a consequence of the long vestibules) and thus waste of space and reduction in seating. But I find the squashy, winged seats, the extremely warm lighting, and the warm red colour scheme in general to give them an absolutely fantastic ambience. I'd argue it to be, in my opinion, possibly the nicest atmosphere of any standard class in the UK, though I know few would agree.

First class I find weakened by the cheap looking blue pleather, and the same goes for Avanti's Voyagers in that respect, but the chunky armrests and thick firm head wings are great.

I totally agree that the reserver is entitled to it, but I don't recommend using TMR on a busy XC service to "reserve a seat from under someone" (as would likely be the case) because it is likely to result in conflict. People are less likely to take seats marked "reserved" rather than "may be reserved", or are more likely to be aware that they are. I personally find such conflict much more stressful than the question of whether I might get a seat or not if I just rock up.

Thus as I said I don't recommend using TMR.

Yes, do you see how that is rather different from saying to use the fifteen minute reservation system is to enjoy conflict?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2023 ==

I just spat my coffee out at that. Superb rail-foruming!

 

[ValleyLines142]

There is nothing wrong with CrossCountry Voyagers. They're just not long enough (unless they're a double set).

Prefer them over the XC HSTs anyday.

 

[DarloRich]

As soon as I saw this thread had been created I knew you would be along to leave a message about "pooh fumes." This is the eighteenth complaint you have made about them! (I will admit I was weak with laughter by the end of quoting them all) I cannot for the life of me understand why you seem to get so unlucky with Voyager toilets, because while I definitely notice it on Pendolinos sadly (more so under Virgin, so maybe Avanti have began tackling this), I've been on all 105 of the Bombardier Voyager family countless times and don't believe this to be a problem at all. Like the Intercity 225s and former LNER HSTs, what I do notice is the sickly sweet smell of the air fresheners which continue into the carriage.

I think the issue for me is that my XC voyager use tends to be out of Brum to the north east on Friday and back on a Sunday. This is peak time for congestion on trains that have been chugging up and down the country all day. That means the tanks are already full without the Friday evening users adding to the load!

I suspect your travel is more likely to be at less congested time, on shorter distance runs and more likely to be in first class. I am sure the train is jolly nice in those circumstances. My last XC experiance was a 4 car train (instead of the HST) out of Brum on a Friday. I stood from Brum to Leeds. In a corridor. On the Sunday I stood from Wakefield to Brum but this time in a doorway!

If you are in the corridor on a busy train for any length of time and stand near the toilet it smells. Surely the point is it shouldn't happen and we shouldn't stand for the fact it does. They are awful trains.

The pendolinos also smell but I spend less time wedged in a doorway on those so don't get to enjoy it much. The worst place of all is the seat backing onto the toilet cubicle. You can hear everything. I will let you imagine that for a bit...............

( It might not happen in first class mind)

Prefer them over the XC HSTs anyday.

Of course you do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is nothing wrong with CrossCountry Voyagers. They're just not long enough (unless they're a double set).

Prefer them over the XC HSTs anyday.

Lack of luggage space is a very real problem due to the stupid design of the overheads and the large number of people making multiday trips.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Lack of luggage space is a very real problem due to the stupid design of the overheads and the large number of people making multiday trips.

Agreed. I find the legroom, seat heights and ride quality marginally better on a Voyager than compared to a HST.

For those reasons, this is why I'm not majorly bothered about their withdrawal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. I find the legroom, seat heights and ride quality marginally better on a Voyager than compared to a HST.

For those reasons, this is why I'm not majorly bothered about their withdrawal.

For clarity, the luggage space issue is on a Voyager. HSTs aren't much better but they are better.

 

[ValleyLines142]

For clarity, the luggage space issue is on a Voyager. HSTs aren't much better but they are better.

I know....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Prefer them over the XC HSTs anyday.

So do I Mind you, I find the XC HSTs very nice - I do like them, whereas I don't really like travelling in GWR's or Scotrail's, and I hated EMTs.

 

[AJDesiro]

I totally agree that the reserver is entitled to it, but I don't recommend using TMR on a busy XC service to "reserve a seat from under someone" (as would likely be the case) because it is likely to result in conflict. People are less likely to take seats marked "reserved" rather than "may be reserved", or are more likely to be aware that they are. I personally find such conflict much more stressful than the question of whether I might get a seat or not if I just rock up.

Thus as I said I don't recommend using TMR.

It was just a thought, I think it's ridiculous that we even need such a thing, it seems like a subtle acknowledgement that XC are failing in providing enough capacity. The only thing I could say with conflict is that there are notices in the TMR carriage which say something along the lines of "This seat may be reserved, even if displayed as available." I think it's awful that we need such a thing, but if people are that desperate, then they may as well take it. I'm just fortunate that 9/10 times, Avanti's voyagers run with sufficient capacity.

 

[stuu]

if you never get a voyager on a busy section of the XC route they are just about tolerable trains. If, like me, your only use of XC Voyagers is on that busy core route out of Brum they are awful. Hideous at times.

I am sick and tired of being squashed in a corridor next to a toilet breathing in another's pooh fumes. I am sure the fumes from the cooking pooh in the saloon have been solved. They havent in the corridor where I always seem to travel. They are horrible trains and want shunting in to the sea.

Pooh? Are you AA Milne or is spelling it like that an in-joke of some sort?

 

[DarloRich]

Pooh? Are you AA Milne or is spelling it like that an in-joke of some sort?

I thought it might otherwise trip the naughty word filter!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Pooh? Are you AA Milne or is spelling it like that an in-joke of some sort?

That is precisely why I always find it so funny, even more so than the repetition

 

[stuu]

I thought it might otherwise trip the naughty word filter!

Oh ok! As you were

 

[class397tpe]

Tbh I do find them to be quite nice trains when they are quiet - smooth ride, comfy seats. Love the big windows for journeys south of Exeter.

Although the thick seats are a real issue when I need to get work done - I'd take an 80x over a Voyager any day for the simple fact I can get my laptop out in an airline seat.

My other gripe is how loud they are (and 222s) when idling at stations - the HSTs are like a whisper in comparison. Especially at Sheffield where EMR have their Meridians idling for 20 minutes - it drowns out the whole station.

Of course the main issue is the pitiful capacity. The comment about the SRA not letting Virgin extend the 4-cars while still on order is interesting - hadn't heard that before. Did the SRA ever make any good decisions? Can't recall hearing any on here - every time the SRA are mentioned it's in a bad light, usually making awful decisions that severely stunted growth and caused overcrowding for years to come.

 

[Mike Machin]

There's intrinsically nothing wrong with the voyagers other that from the get-go they all needed to be nine cars long with much more luggage/bike space.

 

[JonathanH]

Platform seven can take ten plus!

I was referring to the old platform 7 bay at Reading before the rebuilding. Obviously the new platform 7 can accommodate something much longer.
Access to the bay platforms at Reading was a key advantage (for the operator) of short trains on CrossCountry.

My first journey on a Voyager was from the old platform 7 at Reading in July 2001.

Sorry for the lack of clarification.

 

[stevieinselby]

My biggest issue with the (XC) Voyagers is that they seem to act as a Faraday cage - I have never been able to reliably get mobile internet signal on one. I have no idea why this is the case; it's not an issue I've had on any other trains and I can't think of any obvious reasons why you'd get signals being blocked by the train.

Yes, I have the same problem. Phone signal is appalling, and WiFi is dismal (although at least it is now free). It was so bad yesterday that I didn't manage to get through a 1h30 podcast in a 2h journey ... and when you know how little data is needed to stream a podcast and how far ahead they will buffer, that shows just how bad it is.

 

[Krokodil]

The issue here is mostly that there shouldn't be any 5-car intercity trains. A 5-car train is pretty much never suitable for an intercity journey. Even TPE are finding this with their 802s now, but Voyagers have a far less efficient interior layout and are equivalent to between a 3 and 4-car 802.

Indeed, I can't think of any country in Europe operating four car units on IC services.

If the displays are broken and off, fair enough, you can't rightfully insist on taking the seat.
If the display is working, absolutely are you entitled to the seat you have reserved.

You may be within your rights to uproot someone who occupied a seat in good faith, but I view it as a rotten thing to do. Walk up seat reservations ought to only be available where compulsory reservations are in use. Then no old grannies are going to be turfed out halfway along their journey.

My other gripe is how loud they are (and 222s) when idling at stations - the HSTs are like a whisper in comparison. Especially at Sheffield where EMR have their Meridians idling for 20 minutes - it drowns out the whole station.

Have you ever heard what a 68 is like under an overall roof? The whole of Lime Street rattles.

 

[stevieinselby]

Does anyone know if the 220s once needed their 4 car length to fit somewhere (they have SDO don't they?)

It would be surprising if they did, given that they replaced HSTs and loco-hauled sets that would all have been longer than 5 carriages ... unless the introduction of Voyagers saw any new stations added to their network?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, I can't think of any country in Europe operating four car units on IC services.

Spain does, but RENFE is mostly an example of how not to operate a railway.

 

[185143]

I've had some lovely journeys on Voyagers. Both TOCs.

With and without being under the influence

A particularly good one was one morning from Birmingham to Bristol, we had double Voyager (possibly vice HST IIRC) and I was sat in a carriage that "didn't exist" in the reservations. There were about four of us until Cheltenham when it got busier, I had a table to myself for the whole journey. I seem to recall the journey back being pretty pleasant too.

Done Birmingham to Exeter and back a few times without issues. My last Manchester-Birmingham journey on an 8 car was lovely too, sat in the unreserved carriage and didn't have to wait long for a friendly member of staff to appear with the trolley and go and get me a bacon roll. No complaints at all.

Coach D on the Avanti units is lovely to travel in unless it's really busy, had a very pleasant journey to Holyhead a couple of weeks back and from Glasgow a few months ago sat there.

Of course, I've had some truly awful Voyager journeys. Haven't we all! But then again, I could probably think of a lovely journey and a horrific journey I've had on every class of rolling stock in fairness. The main issues with Voyagers are lack of capacity for the routes they serve, plus the fact the XC ones can be rather tatty. The toilet issue is I suspect both exaggerated and not as bad as it was when the units first entered service-you could say the reputation has stuck around like a bad smell!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2023 ==

Spain does, but RENFE is mostly an example of how not to operate a railway.

Irish Rail certainly do too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Irish Rail certainly do too.

To be fair CIE's so-called Intercity services are more like the sort of regional express DMU service Northern would operate. The only "true InterCity" service Ireland has is the Enterprise, and even that is a bit borderline.

 

[Krokodil]

Irish Rail certainly do too.

Stretching the definition of "intercity" rather far there. Dublin-Belfast is served by seven coach (plus DVT) LHCS sets - that's an intercity service. If XC Voyagers were seven coaches, you'd see far fewer complaints.

Next largest city on the island is Cork, with a population smaller than Blackpool. A Manchester-Bristol XC Voyager serves a greater population than the whole of the IÉ network. Services operated by class 22000s are more equivalent to those which other countries might brand "regional express" and BR once called "Alphaline".

 

[43096]

Stretching the definition of "intercity" rather far there. Dublin-Belfast is served by seven coach (plus DVT) LHCS sets - that's an intercity service. If XC Voyagers were seven coaches, you'd see far fewer complaints.

Next largest city on the island is Cork, with a population smaller than Blackpool.

But which also justifies 7-car LHCS sets on many services. Just shows what an utter fiasco XC has been for the last two decades.

 

[Devonian]

Pooh? Are you AA Milne or is spelling it like that an in-joke of some sort?

At the risk of being an annoying little turd, pooh is the main British English spelling for this childish word; poo is a secondary variant (and poop is reserved for infantile Americans).

Back to Voyagers: I fear that one of the reasons that people now may find Voyagers better than their reputation is that they failed to live up to their promise when launched, and were simply disappointing trains that quickly developed a bad reputation that has been difficult to shift - rather like the APTs being "the train that made people sick" even though it probably wasn't. The Voyagers were launched with enormous fanfare by Virgin promising to transform the 'Cinderella service', then embroiled in Operation Princess and ended up on a service pattern they weren't designed for. Breaking down at Dawlish every five minutes didn't help either.

There may now be "rose tinted spectacles on when it comes to the old stock before Voyagers", but however nice Voyagers may be, delayed passengers in 2001 finding their old rake of seven tatty but spacious Mk2s replaced with four cramped, crowded coaches with nowhere to stash a suitcase were unlikely to be wowed by the undoubted improvements of modern styling, electric sockets for laptops, an audio entertainment system, retention lavs, carefully designed lighting or whiplash-preventing seats.

On CrossCountry they became, and remain, synonymous with overcrowding, but with an extra coach, better seat pitch, better use of interior space, more luggage space and a few smaller lavatories they would be perfectly fine, and would have enjoyed a better reputation than they developed and retain. Very much like the IETs are Not As Good As They Could Be, largely thanks to the seats.

One very good thing about Voyagers: their failings have informed UK train procurement and design ever since. IETs, for all their faults, have no four-carriage sets, a better mix of table and airline seating, automatic saloon doors and automatic, interlinked inter-carriage doors, flatter corridor connections, lavatories that take up less space, luggage racks large enough for suitcases and a reservation system that does not require you to watch ... a ... scrolling ... display ... for ... ages ... to ... work ... out ... if ... a ... seat ... is ... free. All these are clearly influenced by the perceived shortcomings of the Voyager experience.

 

[InTheEastMids]

222 interior is better.

*was

The 222 are nice inside

*were
They are generally pretty grotty inside now with stained, threadbare seat covers the rule, rather than the exception.

My biggest issue with the (XC) Voyagers is that they seem to act as a Faraday cage

Yes, this is actually a major pain-point for 22x, as it also hammers battery life (and the on-train WiFi is dreadful)

There is nothing wrong with CrossCountry Voyagers. They're just not long enough

Agree with this sentiment, Did Birmingham - Bristol on one that was not terribly crowded and it was absolutely fine.

My other gripe is how loud they are (and 222s) when idling at stations

And the exhaust fumes, e.g. under the roof at St Pancras if it's not windy. Bristol Temple Meads, with a 22x and various other DMUs chuntering away feels hopelessly dated in comparison to, say, Paddington where nearly everything is electric.

 

[Master29]

At the risk of being an annoying little turd, pooh is the main British English spelling for this childish word; poo is a secondary variant (and poop is reserved for infantile Americans).

Back to Voyagers: I fear that one of the reasons that people now may find Voyagers better than their reputation is that they failed to live up to their promise when launched, and were simply disappointing trains that quickly developed a bad reputation that has been difficult to shift - rather like the APTs being "the train that made people sick" even though it probably wasn't. The Voyagers were launched with enormous fanfare by Virgin promising to transform the 'Cinderella service', then embroiled in Operation Princess and ended up on a service pattern they weren't designed for. Breaking down at Dawlish every five minutes didn't help either.

There may now be "rose tinted spectacles on when it comes to the old stock before Voyagers", but however nice Voyagers may be, delayed passengers in 2001 finding their old rake of seven tatty but spacious Mk2s replaced with four cramped, crowded coaches with nowhere to stash a suitcase were unlikely to be wowed by the undoubted improvements of modern styling, electric sockets for laptops, an audio entertainment system, retention lavs, carefully designed lighting or whiplash-preventing seats.

On CrossCountry they became, and remain, synonymous with overcrowding, but with an extra coach, better seat pitch, better use of interior space, more luggage space and a few smaller lavatories they would be perfectly fine, and would have enjoyed a better reputation than they developed and retain. Very much like the IETs are Not As Good As They Could Be, largely thanks to the seats.

One very good thing about Voyagers: their failings have informed UK train procurement and design ever since. IETs, for all their faults, have no four-carriage sets, a better mix of table and airline seating, automatic saloon doors and automatic, interlinked inter-carriage doors, flatter corridor connections, lavatories that take up less space, luggage racks large enough for suitcases and a reservation system that does not require you to watch ... a ... scrolling ... display ... for ... ages ... to ... work ... out ... if ... a ... seat ... is ... free. All these are clearly influenced by the perceived shortcomings of the Voyager experience.

The thing is with the IET barring the seats they are far roomier and as you say probably influenced by the Voyagers shortcomings however, The Daft and Hitachi forgot about build quality

 

[RailWonderer]

The issue here is mostly that there shouldn't be any 5-car intercity trains. A 5-car train is pretty much never suitable for an intercity journey. Even TPE are finding this with their 802s now, but Voyagers have a far less efficient interior layout and are equivalent to between a 3 and 4-car 802.

When the 180s, Voyagers and Meridians were being built those services from London to Leicester, Notts and Chester were more like glorified regional services than the IC services that Virgin and GNER ran at the time in terms of ridership and capacity needed (although the XC ones were overcrowded shortly after entering service). The DfT followed the same principle with 5 car 800s for the hourly Cotswolds service and the Bedwyn hourly, where they could couple up for some IC routes. The 802s on TPE were intended as regional units than IC in my view, given they were preceeded by 3 car 185s, and before then 3 car 158s.

Without getting into an endless what is and isn't IC debate, 9 car IC trains have mainly only been ordered for services between London and the main cities in the UK and anything else doesn't warrant it as far as TOCs and the DfT are concerned.

 

[stuu]

At the risk of being an annoying little turd, pooh is the main British English spelling for this childish word; poo is a secondary variant (and poop is reserved for infantile Americans).

Is it? I suppose it's the sort of word that doesn't get written down very often anywhere definitive, but the NHS don't use that spelling. The OED and Collins don't give one as the more common I have never seen it written that way apart from with reference to fictional bears - perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the 180s, Voyagers and Meridians were being built those services from London to Leicester, Notts and Chester were more like glorified regional services than the IC services that Virgin and GNER ran at the time in terms of ridership and capacity needed (although the XC ones were overcrowded shortly after entering service). The DfT followed the same principle with 5 car 800s for the hourly Cotswolds service and the Bedwyn hourly, where they could couple up for some IC routes. The 802s on TPE were intended as regional units than IC in my view, given they were preceeded by 3 car 185s, and before then 3 car 158s.

Without getting into an endless what is and isn't IC debate, 9 car IC trains have mainly only been ordered for services between London and the main cities in the UK and anything else doesn't warrant it as far as TOCs and the DfT are concerned.

9x26m I'd agree isn't warranted for XC, but 7 certainly would be.