Could we see freight on the Cambrian Coast line?

[The Planner]

You would be taking passenger trains out the timetable to run freight down there. The infrastructure is purely to deliver TfW services.

 

[stuu]

Thanks for that Gloster. I had not thought of axle weight. Its a shame they did not run to Newtown or Machynlleth As they are ideally sited to provide a rail freight terminal for mixed goods containers. There is no railfreight in mid Wales and it would take many lorries of the roads.

​

The issue with rail freight in somewhere like mid Wales is that there is no single large flow. What you have is lots of lorries going between lots of different origins and many destinations, which is extremely difficult to economically move to rail.

 

[richard_S]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/loading-gauge-shrewsbury-to-aberystwyth-and-pwllheli.249740/

Just interested on what freight could use the line.

 

[zwk500]

Just interested on what freight could use the line.

The RA will be a bigger problem by far - Loading gauge only really affects things like car carriers or intermodal containers, neither of which are potential traffics for the Cambrian. Most normal wagons like Timber will be W6 compliant (i.e. can fit where standard passenger stock can), the issue will be the axle weights. RA5 is quite low, so freights will either need to have limited loadings, or go very slowly over the problem bridges.

And, as was said above, the main problem is paths. The Cambrian would need additional passing loops to run freight on it.

 

[richard_S]

There have been trials with timber from Aberystwyth to Chirk. It would be nice to see a good old fashioned mixed goods train using the line with wagons for the co op, Tesco etc not forgetting important supplies for the pubs. The wagons could be unloaded close to where they will be delivered and could utilize EV delivery lorries for the last mile. This would cut the greenhouse gas emissions. Along with taking many lorries of the roads.

 

[swt_passenger]

There have been trials with timber from Aberystwyth to Chirk. It would be nice to see a good old fashioned mixed goods train using the line with wagons for the co op, Tesco etc not forgetting important supplies for the pubs. The wagons could be unloaded close to where they will be delivered and could utilize EV delivery lorries for the last mile. This would cut the greenhouse gas emissions. Along with taking many lorries of the roads.

It’s never going to happen, is it.

 

[richard_S]

One can dream

 

[zwk500]

There have been trials with timber from Aberystwyth to Chirk. It would be nice to see a good old fashioned mixed goods train using the line with wagons for the co op, Tesco etc not forgetting important supplies for the pubs. The wagons could be unloaded close to where they will be delivered and could utilize EV delivery lorries for the last mile. This would cut the greenhouse gas emissions. Along with taking many lorries of the roads.

These companies would use containers to delvier supplies and, as mentioned, the line cannot accept containers. You need W8 to even be able to use well wagons, and there is not a chance of the line being rebuilt for that. Realistically the traffic you might get on the line is going to be timber or aggregate/stone. And you come up against length limits for the passing loops - overlength trains are possible but slower to clear so you'd need time in the passenger services that really isn't there.
Also at the moment you've only got a handful of locos that can use the line because of ETCS and the RA5 - 66s would need specific clearance as they're RA6.

 

[richard_S]

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used. Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work. All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

 

[The Planner]

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used. Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work. All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

They would all have to be over night depending on where they are going. The first train off Mach to Aberystwyth is 0450 with the last one at 2303. Even the track recording trains have to stay overnight and all day at Mach before it goes up to Pwllheli and back to Derby. No one is going to run a train with a few wagons on it, there is no money in it.

 

[zwk500]

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used.

Not at the distribution level, I imagine.

Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work.

It's a very early train if it needs to get clear of the line before the first train leaves Shrewsbury.

All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

And to have sidings and a loading pad with a forklift to transfer pallets from the Wagon to the van, a loco with ETCS and a driver.

 

[Gloster]

Have a large unloading depot at Bow Street. That will really please the resident of the nearby house.

 

[richard_S]

They dont use pallets for local deliveries they use cages with wheels.

 

[The Planner]

They dont use pallets for local deliveries they use cages with wheels.

It would be cheaper to just deliver with electric lorries and vans.

 

[David57]

Have a large unloading depot at Bow Street. That will really please the resident of the nearby house.

'Welcome to Hell!'

 

[Bald Rick]

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used. Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work. All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

And a complete redesign of the relevant companies’ supply chain operations. Which will be very expensive.

Whilst I don’t know the details, the big supermarkets (Tesco and Morrisons appear to be the only big supermarkets down there) will be getting several deliveries a day each. The smaller local supermarkets (co op) will be receiving rather less than a ‘wagon full’ delivered each day, and again often through multiple deliveries. That means unloading part loads and then transshipping to lorries for the ‘last mile’ (or rather, multiple miles) - lorries that would be used for a couple of hours a day rather than 12-15 hours. As well as small fleet of specialist rail vehicles. It becomes grossly inefficient, which means Higher prices for everybody.

 

[SuspectUsual]

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used. Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work. All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

And a rail connection to their warehouses

And some form of refrigeration

They dont use pallets for local deliveries they use cages with wheels.

Generally yes. Coop use cages for virtually everything on the mainland. The only exception I can think of is the temporary pop-up stores at festivals

Channel Islands goes on pallets as do some of the Scottish islands.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

The smaller local supermarkets (co op) will be receiving rather less than a ‘wagon full’ delivered each day, and again often through multiple deliveries

Coop delivery frequency varies by store size, sales volume, and the amount of backup space. Typically:

Direct to store:
- bread 6x per week
- any “ultra local” stuff by local agreement

Via their network:
- fresh / meat / milk / produce between 5 and 7 days per week
- local (faster moving) ambient 3x to 5x
- national (slow moving) ambient and tobacco 2x to 4x
- frozen 3x to 4x

There will be loads of exceptions to that, and a lot of stores in coastal / tourist areas get a greater frequency in the summer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

That means unloading part loads and then transshipping to lorries for the ‘last mile’ (or rather, multiple miles) - lorries that would be used for a couple of hours a day rather than 12-15 hours. As well as small fleet of specialist rail vehicles. It becomes grossly inefficient, which means Higher prices for everybody

Indeed. The most inefficient bit of all is repeated loading and unloading. It’s entirely non-value adding

 

[Bald Rick]

Coop delivery frequency varies by store size, sales volume, and the amount of backup space. Typically:

Direct to store:
- bread 6x per week
- any “ultra local” stuff by local agreement

Via their network:
- fresh / meat / milk / produce between 5 and 7 days per week
- local (faster moving) ambient 3x to 5x
- national (slow moving) ambient and tobacco 2x to 4x
- frozen 3x to 4x

There will be loads of exceptions to that, and a lot of stores in coastal / tourist areas get a greater frequency in the summer

Sounds like the Cambrian will have to give up its passenger services to fit all these trains in

 

[SuspectUsual]

Sounds like the Cambrian will have to give up its passenger services to fit all these trains in

Indeed. Let’s hope none of the customers want to use a train to get home after doing their shopping

 

[Llanigraham]

There have been trials with timber from Aberystwyth to Chirk. It would be nice to see a good old fashioned mixed goods train using the line with wagons for the co op, Tesco etc not forgetting important supplies for the pubs. The wagons could be unloaded close to where they will be delivered and could utilize EV delivery lorries for the last mile. This would cut the greenhouse gas emissions. Along with taking many lorries of the roads.

To do all of those things you would need to firstly build freight facilities in each town along the line, with the problems of land acquisition and then integrate that into the unique signalling system. Secondly there will be a large problem pathing freight trains into the current passenger service.
Whilst a grand idea it is economically not viable!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

My local Co op and Spar use small lorries with cages on them not containers. So standard wagons could be used. Train runs early morning before passenger traffic starts dropping off full wagons and taking back the empties from the day before. In theory it could work. All that's needed is for a company to get all the shops to co-operate and all use the same train splitting the costs between them.

No it's not! The first thing you need to do is build the railway infrastructure.

 

[Dr_Paul]

There's also the fact that not all towns with chain shops are on the railway these days; in this area, Ruthin, Denbigh, Corwen, Llangollen, Dolgellau, Bala, Llanidloes, Rhayader are no longer on the railway, so a van would be required to serve the shops in those towns, travelling some way from a railway depot. Blaenau Ffestiniog and Betws y Coed still have a station, but on a completely different line, so a different train would be needed to one that went along the Cambrian line. I really don't think the economies of scale would make building the facilities worthwhile. Economies of scale and the more convenient mode of transport offered by vans put paid to the pick-up goods and local goods-yards 60 years back.

 

[SuspectUsual]

There's also the fact that not all towns with chain shops are on the railway these days; in this area, Ruthin, Denbigh, Corwen, Llangollen, Dolgellau, Bala, Llanidloes, Rhayader are no longer on the railway, so a van would be required to serve the shops in those towns, travelling some way from a railway depot. Blaenau Ffestiniog and Betws y Coed still have a station, but on a completely different line, so a different train would be needed to one that went along the Cambrian line. I really don't think the economies of scale would make building the facilities worthwhile. Economies of scale and the more convenient mode of transport offered by vans put paid to the pick-up goods and local goods-yards 60 years back.

But to be fair it’s handy for the Coop in Tywyn and Barmouth

 

[Bald Rick]

There's also the fact that not all towns with chain shops are on the railway these days; in this area, Ruthin, Denbigh, Corwen, Llangollen, Dolgellau, Bala, Llanidloes, Rhayader are no longer on the railway, so a van would be required to serve the shops in those towns, travelling some way from a railway depot. Blaenau Ffestiniog and Betws y Coed still have a station, but on a completely different line, so a different train would be needed to one that went along the Cambrian line. I really don't think the economies of scale would make building the facilities worthwhile. Economies of scale and the more convenient mode of transport offered by vans put paid to the pick-up goods and local goods-yards 60 years back.

if the economies of scale don’t work for supplying large supermarkets by train in major cities, they sure as hell aren’t going to work for mini-marts in rural Wales.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The RA will be a bigger problem by far - Loading gauge only really affects things like car carriers or intermodal containers, neither of which are potential traffics for the Cambrian. Most normal wagons like Timber will be W6 compliant (i.e. can fit where standard passenger stock can), the issue will be the axle weights. RA5 is quite low, so freights will either need to have limited loadings, or go very slowly over the problem bridges.

And, as was said above, the main problem is paths. The Cambrian would need additional passing loops to run freight on it.

RA was always a problem for locomotives but not so clear cut. Class 40s were cleared for the lines even though RA6 (I think). Class 47s were cleared as far west as Newtown but 47/0 received dispension subject to restrictions to run as far west as Dovey Jn - back in 1979 in order to haul the mole plough for burying lineside cables. A WR slow speed 47 was worked light to Machynlleth every friday night for weeks in order to do weekend jobs.

 

[zwk500]

RA was always a problem for locomotives but not so clear cut. Class 40s were cleared for the lines even though RA6 (I think). Class 47s were cleared as far west as Newtown but 47/0 received dispension subject to restrictions to run as far west as Dovey Jn - back in 1979 in order to haul the mole plough for burying lineside cables. A WR slow speed 47 was worked light to Machynlleth every friday night for weeks in order to do weekend jobs.

Plenty of examples of locos operating below their normal RA with restrictions over bridges or whatnot. However the slower passage this then forces also makes finding paths for them extremely hard.

 

[richard_S]

Gloster it would be ideal to put in a short line to the industrial estate with sidings there. At the present the log train uses the station area to load with HGV movements in and out of the town center a siding at the industrial estate would take the HGV's out of the town. This also could be used by a mixed goods train. Then an EV local lorry could deliver to the various stores in the area. If stores could be persuaded to use shared wagons ( 3 or 4 might fill a single wagon) if they cannot fill one. Potential sites in Aberystwyth are The pubs, Marks and Spencer, Tesco, Lidl, pets at home, home bargains, next, Morrisons, B&M store, Iceland, and Halfords.

 

[zwk500]

Gloster it would be ideal to put in a short line to the industrial estate with sidings there.

@richard_S it would be helpful if you could use the reply button in the lower right corner so we can see which post you're replying to! You can also put @ before a username and it will tag them, which you can use in conjunction with a post number for the same goal.

 

[richard_S]

@richard_S it would be helpful if you could use the reply button in the lower right corner so we can see which post you're replying to! You can also put @ before a username and it will tag them, which you can use in conjunction with a post number for the same goal.

Thanks for that I was unsure how to do it.

 

[Gloster]

Gloster it would be ideal to put in a short line to the industrial estate with sidings there. At the present the log train uses the station area to load with HGV movements in and out of the town center a siding at the industrial estate would take the HGV's out of the town. This also could be used by a mixed goods train. Then an EV local lorry could deliver to the various stores in the area. If stores could be persuaded to use shared wagons ( 3 or 4 might fill a single wagon) if they cannot fill one. Potential sites in Aberystwyth are The pubs, Marks and Spencer, Tesco, Lidl, pets at home, home bargains, next, Morrisons, B&M store, Iceland, and Halfords.

I was being tongue in cheek.

 

[richard_S]

I was being tongue in cheek.

There is also all the sites on the industrial site. It makes you wonder if it would work as its a long way to the distribution depots and how many lorries make the trip each day carrying part loads.