Northern Penalty Fares.

[AlterEgo]

Nope, on the Northern app (at least of my phone) e-tickets often fail to load/show correctly. I'll go to open the ticket for the guard/ticket barriers and the page will get stuck after pressing view ticket and it'll either just change the box I've just pressed so it goes grey (like it's thinking about it but doesn't do anything further than that) or it'll say there's been an issue loading it. They've all been activated so it shouldn't be a WiFi issue, just a poorly designed app issue.

If it needs activation and lives in an app it's not an e-ticket, it's an m-ticket.

E-tickets do not need activating.

 

[lrailadventure]

If it needs activation and lives in an app it's not an e-ticket, it's an m-ticket.

E-tickets do not need activating.

Either way, it's a poor system that doesn't work. Never have an issue with a paper ticket, always have issues with e-tickets/m-tickets/whatever they want to be called.

 

[Starmill]

E-tickets do not require tickets to be loaded in an app. WHat you are describing here is an M-ticket which is an awful, outdated format and in the process of being phased out.

While this is correct in general sadly ScotRail are still rolling out m-tickets. S-tickets (long period seasons on M-tickets) and Flexi Season Mtickets are also still being expanded. Etickets for classic seasons from Avanti West Coast ticket offices are still available for Avanti West Coast priced flows but further rollout of this is blocked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

If it needs activation and lives in an app it's not an e-ticket, it's an m-ticket.

E-tickets do not need activating.

To be fair until recently a number of apps refused to allow people to print their etickets or made them device locked, and others sold Mtickets but used the term Etickets to describe them. So I'm not surprised there are serious trust issues.

 

[Hadders]

Nope, on the Northern app (at least of my phone) e-tickets often fail to load/show correctly. I'll go to open the ticket for the guard/ticket barriers and the page will get stuck after pressing view ticket and it'll either just change the box I've just pressed so it goes grey (like it's thinking about it but doesn't do anything further than that) or it'll say there's been an issue loading it. They've all been activated so it shouldn't be a WiFi issue, just a poorly designed app issue.

An e-ticket does not require activation. This is an m-ticket.

An e-ticket is simply a PDF that is emailed to you as part of your booking confirmation. You simply open it on your phone (no activation or app required) or print it out.

 

[lrailadventure]

To be fair until recently a number of apps refused to allow people to print their etickets or made them device locked, and others sold Mtickets but used the term Etickets to describe them. So I'm not surprised there are serious trust issues.

Didn't think I was imagining it, so just looked at my tickets on the Northern app and clear as day at the top it says it's an e-ticket..

When I'm going through checkout it also says under ticket options e-ticket, not m-ticket. If the TOC can't even agree what type of ticket I'm buying.. it doesn't provide much confidence..

 

[AlterEgo]

Didn't think I was imagining it, so just looked at my tickets on the Northern app and clear as day at the top it says it's an e-ticket..

When I'm going through checkout it also says under ticket options e-ticket, not m-ticket. If the TOC can't even agree what type of ticket I'm buying.. it doesn't provide much confidence..

But that doesn’t need to be activated. A screenshot will suffice, or printing the code on A4, or just showing it in the app, or an email browser or whatever.

 

[Hadders]

When I'm going through checkout it also says under ticket options e-ticket, not m-ticket. If the TOC can't even agree what type of ticket I'm buying.. it doesn't provide much confidence..

Absolutely agreed! The rail industry seems to specialise in making things ambiguous and then wonders why passengers get confused...

You've already done the hard work here, what you attached to your post is the ticket, and that's all you need to show. Nothing to activate. Just use that square shaped barcode to open the ticket barriers (if there are any), and show the guard during a ticket inspection - they will scan the barcode and move on to the next passenger!

 

[lrailadventure]

Absolutely agreed! The rail industry seems to specialise in making things ambiguous and then wonders why passengers get confused...

You've already done the hard work here, what you attached to your post is the ticket, and that's all you need to show. Nothing to activate. Just use that square shaped barcode to open the ticket barriers (if there are any), and show the guard during a ticket inspection - they will scan the barcode and move on to the next passenger!

I know, the struggle is getting it to that stage. Once it's open on the app it's fine assuming I leave the app running in the background and don't close it until after I finish travelling. The issue is getting it open to that bit, it seems to enjoy breaking the app. I don't always get the email copy of it either for some reason so I can be left quite stuck.

Unless I'm traveling on an advanced ticket (rare since I normally need the flexibility and options for break of journeys etc), I still avoid using this ticket type. I'd rather stand in a queue at the ticket office/machine and get a paper ticket. I've missed a few trains doing this (which was the original point of this thread that I seem to have led off track slightly) but that's normally my own fault for turning up 2-3 minutes before the departure time (hence the need for flexible tickets.. oops).

 

[Wallsendmag]

E-tickets do not require tickets to be loaded in an app. WHat you are describing here is an M-ticket which is an awful, outdated format and in the process of being phased out.

In fact LNER are disabling mTickets for all the flows they own on Monday as they are more trouble than they are worth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2023 ==

Didn't think I was imagining it, so just looked at my tickets on the Northern app and clear as day at the top it says it's an e-ticket..

When I'm going through checkout it also says under ticket options e-ticket, not m-ticket. If the TOC can't even agree what type of ticket I'm buying.. it doesn't provide much confidence..

With Ormskirk being operated by Merseyrail that shouldn't be available as an e or mTicket

 

[Hadders]

In fact LNER are disabling mTickets for all the flows they own on Monday as they are more trouble than they are worth.

That is good news. Perhaps someone can have a word with Scotrail....

 

[lrailadventure]

With Ormskirk being operated by Merseyrail that shouldn't be available as an e or mTicket

It's an advanced ticket travelling on the Northern service to Preston and then onward to York. No Merseyrail services are being used.

When purchasing the ticket the only option is to buy it as an e-ticket (if purchasing through the Northern app). They've removed the option to collect tickets from the station, so if Merseyrail have an issue with that, it's not exactly the customers fault, is it?

Same thing occurs at Southport on the Northern Manchester/Stalybridge service. Completely valid to have an e-ticket, only difference there is there are ticket barriers at Southport, whereas Ormskirk there are not. Although I noticed the last time I was at Southport, the new ticket barriers have the QR scanner.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Last time I bought tickets via Northern’s app (late March) I also got an email with a pdf of the tickets attached, so there was no need to go near their awful, clunky app whilst travelling

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's an advanced ticket travelling on the Northern service to Preston and then onward to York. No Merseyrail services are being used.

When purchasing the ticket the only option is to buy it as an e-ticket (if purchasing through the Northern app). They've removed the option to collect tickets from the station, so if Merseyrail have an issue with that, it's not exactly the customers fault, is it?

Same thing occurs at Southport on the Northern Manchester/Stalybridge service. Completely valid to have an e-ticket, only difference there is there are ticket barriers at Southport, whereas Ormskirk there are not. Although I noticed the last time I was at Southport, the new ticket barriers have the QR scanner.

It's not the services it's the infrastructure, any station operated by Mersyrail shouldn't be enabled.

 

[lrailadventure]

It's not the services it's the infrastructure, any station operated by Mersyrail shouldn't be enabled.

If you purchase a Merseyrail daysaver online, it gets sent to you as an e-ticket/ PDF with a QR code. A ticket designed solely for use on the Merseyrail network comes with a QR code... Are you suggesting that you shouldn't be able to use that ticket either?

Also, why if they shouldn't be enabled have they just installed ticket barriers at Southport that are capable of scanning the tickets?

Anyways, this is way off topic. The original issue was ticket machines are stations being too complex to use, causing a queue and meaning people have to chose between missing their train and risk getting on the train without a valid ticket and ending up with a penalty fare. E-tickets might seem like a simple solution to some people (as was suggested by the comment that started this tangent), but they're still largely flawed and the only thing that can really reduce queues at stations is by adding more ticket office counters or machines. In my opinion the former is preferable as the counter staff have the knowledge, and typically work much quicker than 76 year old Dorris who doesn't understand technology, trying the use the poorly designed TVMs and can't find the ticket she is looking for, therefore causing a queue.

 

[Grumpy]

I think everyone here knows what the legal situation is

Well I didn't know what the legal position was, nor did my colleagues earlier this week. They were travelling within West Yorkshire, mainly on Northern or TPE, and probably use trains once or twice/month. They were shocked at what had happened. I have since discussed with other local users who were similarly unaware. All thought if you couldn't use a machine or ticket office then it was ok to pay the guard.
What is the point of guards on local services carrying ticket machines if you're not supposed to use them?

 

[AlterEgo]

Well I didn't know what the legal position was, nor did my colleagues earlier this week. They were travelling within West Yorkshire, mainly on Northern or TPE, and probably use trains once or twice/month. They were shocked at what had happened. I have since discussed with other local users who were similarly unaware. All thought if you couldn't use a machine or ticket office then it was ok to pay the guard.
What is the point of guards on local services carrying ticket machines if you're not supposed to use them?

You can use the guard if the ticket you need isn’t available on the machine - many aren’t.

If the ticket office is closed and the machine is out of order then you may board without a ticket. The point is, one has to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Didn't think I was imagining it, so just looked at my tickets on the Northern app and clear as day at the top it says it's an e-ticket..

When I'm going through checkout it also says under ticket options e-ticket, not m-ticket. If the TOC can't even agree what type of ticket I'm buying.. it doesn't provide much confidence..

When I buy tickets on the Northern app I always get an email with the tickets. You can easily download this as an offline backup.

I would always prefer a paper ticket, though sometimes needs must.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Well I didn't know what the legal position was, nor did my colleagues earlier this week. They were travelling within West Yorkshire, mainly on Northern or TPE, and probably use trains once or twice/month. They were shocked at what had happened. I have since discussed with other local users who were similarly unaware. All thought if you couldn't use a machine or ticket office then it was ok to pay the guard.
What is the point of guards on local services carrying ticket machines if you're not supposed to use them?

The machines also serve a validation as well as retail function and may well be needed in case of TVM failure

 

[Gaelan]

The point is, one has to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity.

I'd argue there's no "available opportunity" if one arrives at the station in plenty of time but there's a long queue! But, as discussed, the TOCs disagree.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd argue there's no "available opportunity" if one arrives at the station in plenty of time but there's a long queue! But, as discussed, the TOCs disagree.

Yes, this is the grey area indeed!

 

[lrailadventure]

When I buy tickets on the Northern app I always get an email with the tickets. You can easily download this as an offline backup.

I would always prefer a paper ticket, though sometimes needs must.

I dont always receive the email for some reason. I've tried it on 2 different accounts and sometimes I get the email, sometimes I don't. Not sure if it's a problem at Northern's end or mine.

I always get the payment confirmation email though, is there a specific reason Northern don't just send them in the same email?

I'm the same, prefer the paper ticket. Only annoying bit of the paper tickets is I can't take advantage on Northern's on the day advanced ticket prices when buying at a ticket office. £9.90 advanced vs £37 walk up for OMS to YRK. Give ticket offices the chance to sell on the day advanced ticket prices and I will be happy to stand in the queue (assuming I don't miss the train).

I'd argue there's no "available opportunity" if one arrives at the station in plenty of time but there's a long queue! But, as discussed, the TOCs disagree.

It might have been discussed already, but do TOCs dictate a reasonable time to arrive at a station before departure with consideration to time spent in queues? Or is just a hard line of "tough, you should have turned up earlier, but we're not going to tell you how much earlier".

 

[Starmill]

Or is just a hard line of "tough, you should have turned up earlier, but we're not going to tell you how much earlier".

Yes.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I dont always receive the email for some reason. I've tried it on 2 different accounts and sometimes I get the email, sometimes I don't. Not sure if it's a problem at Northern's end or mine.

I always get the payment confirmation email though, is there a specific reason Northern don't just send them in the same email?

I'm the same, prefer the paper ticket. Only annoying bit of the paper tickets is I can't take advantage on Northern's on the day advanced ticket prices when buying at a ticket office. £9.90 advanced vs £37 walk up for OMS to YRK. Give ticket offices the chance to sell on the day advanced ticket prices and I will be happy to stand in the queue (assuming I don't miss the train).

I'm sorry to say it's most likely a "you" problem - either with Spam filters on the account or your ISP. Even though it's a Northern App, sending emails will be a core function. Something in the chain is breaking after it's left them.

 

[Titfield]

I'd argue there's no "available opportunity" if one arrives at the station in plenty of time but there's a long queue! But, as discussed, the TOCs disagree.

Take a photograph of the queue in the same way you would do of a TVM out of order.

I would take a photograph of the queue when I joined it (the queue) and would take another / more as the queue moved forward.

If I had to abandon the queue and get on the train without a ticket the time stamps would provide proof of both the time I arrived to buy a ticket and the length of the queue (and how slow moving it was).

 

[Watershed]

I dont always receive the email for some reason. I've tried it on 2 different accounts and sometimes I get the email, sometimes I don't. Not sure if it's a problem at Northern's end or mine.

I always get the payment confirmation email though, is there a specific reason Northern don't just send them in the same email?

I'm the same, prefer the paper ticket. Only annoying bit of the paper tickets is I can't take advantage on Northern's on the day advanced ticket prices when buying at a ticket office. £9.90 advanced vs £37 walk up for OMS to YRK. Give ticket offices the chance to sell on the day advanced ticket prices and I will be happy to stand in the queue (assuming I don't miss the train).

It's worth noting that you could buy tickets from another retailer if you're having trouble getting the emails. Many retailers will sell you tickets fee-free (all of the TOCs, plus several third party retailers) - the question is what additional benefit they're offering you. For instance, some retailers offer fee-free refunds (obviously not for Advance tickets) or changes.

It might have been discussed already, but do TOCs dictate a reasonable time to arrive at a station before departure with consideration to time spent in queues?

When BR was forced to introduce a Passenger's Charter in the early 90s (as part of John Major's drive to introduce Charters across the public sector), it included a section on queuing time. Penalty Fares were first introduced around the same time; one of the key measures that various Parliamentarians insisted on as a safeguard against the newly reversed burden of proof was that you couldn't be penalised if the queue exceeded this duration, or at least you could quickly and easily obtain a Permit to Travel from a separate machine.

This protection was essentially kept under the post-privatisation Strategic Rail Authority's Penalty Fares Rules, but with the introduction of the new Penalty Fares Regulations in 2018, all that was removed.

Though some TOCs still put down "aims" for queue times in their Charters, many don't bother anymore. Certainly none say that you can buy on board because of a long queue, and the facility to obtain a Permit to Travel has been removed from most stations. Northern introduced their own Promise to Pay Notice scheme, but this is only available from a ticket machine - the queue for which you may be waiting in!

Or is just a hard line of "tough, you should have turned up earlier, but we're not going to tell you how much earlier".

That is the nonsensical position the industry currently maintains, yes.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I always get the payment confirmation email though, is there a specific reason Northern don't just send them in the same email?

Probably because they originate from different systems

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact LNER are disabling mTickets for all the flows they own on Monday as they are more trouble than they are worth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2023 ==


With Ormskirk being operated by Merseyrail that shouldn't be available as an e or mTicket

Ormskirk is not gated, and e-tickets are issued for and valid on the Northern service. Same at Southport (though it is gated), Kirkby/Headbolt, Hunts X/South Parkway (the latter gated) and Ellesmere Port.

 

[skyhigh]

I dont always receive the email for some reason. I've tried it on 2 different accounts and sometimes I get the email, sometimes I don't. Not sure if it's a problem at Northern's end or mine.

I'm sorry to say it's most likely a "you" problem - either with Spam filters on the account or your ISP. Even though it's a Northern App, sending emails will be a core function. Something in the chain is breaking after it's left them.

It's actually a Northern branded Trainline app and emails come from them.

 

[bob007]

Northern treat their customers as scum compared to how customers would be treated in almost any other industry. You are entitled to think it's disgusting but I can assure you that Northern won't be at all bothered and don't care what their customers think.

…


That suits Northern just fine; they are bankrolled by taxpayers. Customers appear to be seen by train companies as an inconvenience to the running of the service, and as potential criminals, rather than customers in the sense that the service sector would see customers.

Yorkie, tell us how you really feel about Northern. Don’t hold back

Totally agree

 

[ricoblade]

I noticed today that on their on-board electronic screens, Northern describes the £100 PF as a "fine"...