How could Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) services be improved/extended?

[DynamicSpirit]

The Thameslink’s should be diverted via Lewisham & Blackheath then onto Woolwich and beyond, it’s the only metro route of SE that is 2tph and was used for outer suburban services to Gillingham, so the Thameslink via Lewisham/Woolwich to Rainham is a much better fit.

But by terminating it at Abbey Wood you’d be mucking up services north of the river, and as I said earlier I doubt that all EL trains would be running to Dartford since a few would terminate at Abbey Wood still.

Why would terminating Thameslink at Abbey Wood muck up services North of the river?

 

[mr_jrt]

Disclaimer: I don't know the area in the slightest

Could you realign Mill Pond road over the pond on a bridge, freeing up the current alignment to widen the station? Looking at the wider area, you could conceivably widen the nearby William Mundy Way and then you wouldn't need Mill Pond road at all. You'd need to pull down some very modern-looking buildings either way, though.

Would enable you to straighten the existing platforms considerably, too.

 

[London Trains]

If Dartford station needed to be rebuilt, I think it would be easier to move the station slightly to the east. On the eastern side of the River Darent bridge, there is space north of the railway, and past the Overy Street bridge, the land north of the railway is owned by Network Rail.

 

[Horizon22]

I'd argue it would be a considerable improvement: Belvedere and Erith can typically see gaps of up to 20 minutes between trains. Last Sunday - admittedly an unusual timetable because of engineering works - they had 4 tph to Cannon Street, with regular 24 minute gaps! If they were instead served by EL trains only, then they would have a service every 7-8 minutes during the day and every 6 minutes at rush hour. And if that recast allows SouthEastern to actually provide a decent fixed 10-minute interval Abbey Wood-Cannon Street instead of the mess we currently have, then journeys like Erith-Charlton or Slade Green-Deptford would still be convenient to do with one single change.

That’s a problem with the current NK timetable - at even gaps it would be much more reasonable.

 

[ATS3]

Nippy, electric, all-stations trains which get into the city centre are the future. This is best practice now across Europe and Japan - vs fast services which end up at a Victorian-era terminus on the fringe of the city. False economy.

I would say Dartford to Canary Wharf in 25 mins is extremely fast, compared to the previous options (via Lewisham or Greenwich perhaps). The stopping pattern is irrelevant, that's an excellent, rapid service. Without need for a timetable either. And with Liverpool St being 5 mins more, that's superb. Much further into Kent, HS1 becomes a thing, so Dartford and environs (plus Erith etc) is the absolute sweet spot. And also has a ton of home building along the Thames, which EL makes far more appealing and viable.

A 'fast pattern' train from Dartford getting caught behind the stoppers on all three lines, checked all the way to London Bridge - would be far inferior. And wouldn't happen either. The Sidcup line has something relatively fast, I suppose.

Slough has a far superior rail service with the Elizabeth line than Surbiton or Bromley South do. It does has those legacy fasts to Paddington though, too. But one-seat rides beat that, as does frequency - unless you work at a singular spot right by your terminus. Which people historically did - but no longer need to be tied to, opening up much greater opportunities and frankly, freedom.

Exactly this, its all tosh with rail capacity but economic benefits are never realized on here. Make it 4 tracks and start building

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2023 ==

Disclaimer: I don't know the area in the slightest

Could you realign Mill Pond road over the pond on a bridge, freeing up the current alignment to widen the station? Looking at the wider area, you could conceivably widen the nearby William Mundy Way and then you wouldn't need Mill Pond road at all. You'd need to pull down some very modern-looking buildings either way, though.

Would enable you to straighten the existing platforms considerably, too.
View attachment 136375

Or if not it could be built over the road?

 

[telstarbox]

The Dartford Local Plan includes a tentative plan to move the station *west* into the retail park.

 

[Mikey C]

That's potentially doable, though would mean yet another rebuild for the station after it was rebuilt in the 70s with a horrible new building when the 4th platform was added, and that building in return was replaced with a nicer one 10 years ago!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's potentially doable, though would mean yet another rebuild for the station after it was rebuilt in the 70s with a horrible new building when the 4th platform was added, and that building in return was replaced with a nicer one 10 years ago!

By comparison, how many rebuilds has Abbey Wood had? The original station would have been on the level crossing that originally existed there. At some point (I'm guessing in the 1970s or 80s) the Harrow Manorway flyover was constructed, replacing the level crossing - which I would think must therefore have necessitated a rebuild of the station. On the other hand, by around 2010, when I first started using it, the station building was a beautiful house-style brick construction, which had a distinct 1990s feel, which I therefore can't imagine would have been built at the same time as the flyover - so I wonder if I'm missing a rebuild in the history there. Then a temporary (but still very substantial) ticket office was built in the car park when work on Crossrail started, to be replaced with the current one on the flyover a couple of years ago.

Rebuilding Dartford station is going to be expensive, but I can see a good argument that it's going to need to be done at some point anyway if we are to provide a better rail service in the area: As I understand it, the 'rounder' trains only exist because there isn't enough capacity at Dartford to terminate anything else there, which is what would've been more sensible. I've occasionally used the rounders (admittedly mostly pre-Elizabeth line) and the impression I've had is that almost no-one uses them to actually do the loop between Slade Green and Crayford/Barnehurst - whereas running everything to Dartford would give much better frequencies for a wide range of connecting journeys. And that's before you consider the long-standing aspiration to extend the Elizabeth line through Dartford.

To my mind the current layout just doesn't have enough platforms, and the platforms that are there are pretty cramped anyway (although as you say, the ticket office is nice).

On the upside, it is very conveniently sited for the town centre, although it really could do with a Northern entrance to provide better access to the rather huge amount of housing on that side.

(EDITED for clarity)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

Disclaimer: I don't know the area in the slightest

Could you realign Mill Pond road over the pond on a bridge, freeing up the current alignment to widen the station? Looking at the wider area, you could conceivably widen the nearby William Mundy Way and then you wouldn't need Mill Pond road at all. You'd need to pull down some very modern-looking buildings either way, though.

I'm not sure you'd need to realign it significantly. My first thought for a 'poor man's' way to add capacity to Dartford would be to simply build a new bay platform above Mill Pond Road. The tracks are sufficiently elevated there that it should be possible in principle. At the Eastern end, where Mill Pond Road becomes Temple Hill, the road starts going up a slope, but by then it's veered sufficiently away from the railway tracks that that shouldn't be an issue. You'd need to demolish the rail depot building and you'd presumably want to rebuild the (horrible, claustrophobic) station passenger footbridge to add capacity. But otherwise you could probably leave the existing station as it is. And you get to keep the nice lake (which would otherwise disappear if you tried to realign New Pond Road away from the station).

Getting back on topic, if the Elizabeth line were extended, the new platform could then be the Elizabeth line platform, with the existing platforms used to support more SouthEastern trains from London, with all the rounders now routed to Dartford.

 

[PGAT]

I'm not sure you'd need to realign it significantly. My first thought for a 'poor man's' way to add capacity to Dartford would be to simply build a new bay platform above Mill Pond Road. The tracks are sufficiently elevated there that it should be possible in principle. At the Eastern end, where Mill Pond Road becomes Temple Hill, the road starts going up a slope, but by then it's veered sufficiently away from the railway tracks that that shouldn't be an issue. You'd need to demolish the rail depot building and you'd presumably want to rebuild the (horrible, claustrophobic) station passenger footbridge to add capacity. But otherwise you could probably leave the existing station as it is. And you get to keep the nice lake (which would otherwise disappear if you tried to realign New Pond Road away from the station).

Getting back on topic, if the Elizabeth line were extended, the new platform could then be the Elizabeth line platform, with the existing platforms used to support more SouthEastern trains from London, with all the rounders now routed to Dartford.

You could probably fit an island platform instead of just one in that case

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You could probably fit an island platform instead of just one in that case

Oh yes sorry I actually meant, island platform. I always get confused about the terminology between island and bay platforms

 

[NorthKent1989]

In which case, for the Blackheath-Charlton route, maybe a Abbey Wood-Victoria 2tph? Victoria-Lewisham was always touted as 4tph, maybe one day, with Hayes mentioned as well as the Sidcup change. It's not dissimilar to the Millennium Dome Vic-Plumstead service!

In a era where they can’t/won’t run Charing Cross services from the Woolwich line I don’t think there’ll ever be a Victoria service ever again on that line.

Although a Victoria to Rainham in place of Thameslink does sound good in theory, although I have heard that the Woolwich line summer specials to the Thanet coast will be running from Victoria this year rather than Cannon Street and Charing Cross.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

As for the Dartford extension, how about tunneling from Slade Green to Dartford? And having underground platforms there?

 

[PGAT]

As for the Dartford extension, how about tunneling from Slade Green to Dartford? And having underground platforms there?

Already been suggested. Too expensive.

 

[Mikey C]

Although a Victoria to Rainham in place of Thameslink does sound good in theory, although I have heard that the Woolwich line summer specials to the Thanet coast will be running from Victoria this year rather than Cannon Street and Charing Cross.

What route will they take?

 

[NorthKent1989]

What route will they take?

I think it’ll be Victoria, Denmark Hill, then Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton then the same stopping pattern as Thameslink as far as Dartford, then onward to Gravesend, Medway and beyond.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

Already been suggested. Too expensive.

Ah fair enough.

I’ve noticed all talk of extending further tie Gravesend/Ebbsfleet has appeared to have been dropped

 

[Mikey C]

I think it’ll be Victoria, Denmark Hill, then Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton then the same stopping pattern as Thameslink as far as Dartford, then onward to Gravesend, Medway and beyond.

Sorry was being lazy. In fact checking National Rail Enquiries for Saturday 12th August, shows 2 Cannon Street to Ramsgate services (08:25, 09:25) which are all stations to Dartford via Lewisham before continuing to Ramsgate

 

[Stephen42]

Sorry was being lazy. In fact checking National Rail Enquiries for Saturday 12th August, shows 2 Cannon Street to Ramsgate services (08:25, 09:25) which are all stations to Dartford via Lewisham before continuing to Ramsgate

It's different on Saturdays to during the week. Weekdays from 24th July there is a 0922 Victoria to Ramsgate via Lewisham and Charlton. That train would normally go to Slade Green empty from Victoria and instead does the trip to Ramsgate first.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sorry was being lazy. In fact checking National Rail Enquiries for Saturday 12th August, shows 2 Cannon Street to Ramsgate services (08:25, 09:25) which are all stations to Dartford via Lewisham before continuing to Ramsgate

No Worries, , there was actually a Cannon Street to Thanet service due to today but cancelled due to strikes

I also made an incorrect statement? The Victoria service will be fast to Lewisham, no stops at Denmark Hill

 

[Trainguy34]

What would be running this, I'm guessing 465s but night be wrong

 

[Mikey C]

It's different on Saturdays to during the week. Weekdays from 24th July there is a 0922 Victoria to Ramsgate via Lewisham and Charlton. That train would normally go to Slade Green empty from Victoria and instead does the trip to Ramsgate first.

Until now has a Victoria train ever run via Woolwich before? Thins were so much easier when the semi fast "62" trains between Charing X and Gillingham ran, which would then be extended!

What would be running this, I'm guessing 465s but night be wrong

I'm not sure Southeastern have ever run 375s via Dartford before?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Until now has a Victoria train ever run via Woolwich before? Thins were so much easier when the semi fast "62" trains between Charing X and Gillingham ran, which would then be extended!

All three Dartford routes (sans Greenwich obviously since this is a different branch) have had some occasional Victoria service until around 1990 when they were routed via Bexleyheath at peaks initially, then off peak in the 2000s, from 1999 up until around 2002/2003, there was a Victoria to Plumstead service, which was started due to the Millennium Dome being expected to attract more visitors than planned, by 2003 this service was re routed to Cannon Street, this was also during the era when the 62s ran via Greenwich.

It does seem odd that the seaside specials on a weekday would run from Victoria via Woolwich rather than Bexleyheath though.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure Southeastern have ever run 375s via Dartford before?

Have they not done so when the line via Bromley South is shut?

This video shows a pair of 375s at Gravesend back in December.

 

[Basil Jet]

Until now has a Victoria train ever run via Woolwich before?

For years or decades around the end of the 20th century the trains on the Blackheath / Charlton line ran to and from Victoria, serving Woolwich Arsenal but running fast through most of that line.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm not sure Southeastern have ever run 375s via Dartford before?

Many times on diversion to get to Rochester via Lewisham / Dartford / Strood when the Chatham Main Line is closed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

Although a Victoria to Rainham in place of Thameslink does sound good in theory, although I have heard that the Woolwich line summer specials to the Thanet coast will be running from Victoria this year rather than Cannon Street and Charing Cross.

They've run from Victoria before.

 

[PGAT]

I saw a video where 375s were used for the summer Ramsgate special services. I will try and find the link.

I’ve noticed all talk of extending further tie Gravesend/Ebbsfleet has appeared to have been dropped

It’s less favourable imo than Dartford as a terminus. Also I believe that the extension to Ebbsfleet International specifically is a bit of a misconception because of a lack of suitable connection. The serious proposals suggest turning around 4tph each at Northfleet and Gravesend.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Many times on diversion to get to Rochester via Lewisham / Dartford / Strood when the Chatham Main Line is closed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==



They've run from Victoria before.

I think in the 90s and early 00s a few may have started from Victoria.

The last four years saw them start from Cannon Street and via Greenwich.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2023 ==

I saw a video where 375s were used for the summer Ramsgate special services. I will try and find the link.

It’s less favourable imo than Dartford as a terminus. Also I believe that the extension to Ebbsfleet International specifically is a bit of a misconception because of a lack of suitable connection. The serious proposals suggest turning around 4tph each at Northfleet and Gravesend.

Dartford probably makes more sense as a EL terminal than Gravesend, this creates a similar situation to, plus in regards to Ebbsfleet, no more international trains until 2025 at the earliest, and I’m not sure how the “Garden City” development is going, is there much in the way of a proper district around there?

 

[cle]

They also have service into Stratford (Int) in about 7 minutes and St P in another 7. So yea different destinations - but diminishing need for a fast London service. Put another way, they already got something new and shiny.

Whereas stations to Dartford, itself, and arguably Greenhithe - would be much better EL routes. Ebbsfleet/Gravesend/Northfleet might be worth it for connectivity / terminus / network factor, and maybe journeys to Canary Wharf, but I can’t see tons of folks going to the West End that way, Vs via St P and a rocket on the Victoria line in half the time.

 

[PGAT]

Problem with extending to Gravesend is you would have to kick nearly everything else out to give room to the Elizabeth Line, and you would have to upgrade Dartford to terminate all the cutback services

 

[NorthKent1989]

but I can’t see tons of folks going to the West End that way, Vs via St P and a rocket on the Victoria line in half the time.

Or use Victoria, which is the heart of the West End plus Kings Road, everything is walking distance from there, St. Pancras is the other side of the West End, it’s neither city nor West End really (maybe North Central?)

 

[frediculous]

I'm not sure Southeastern have ever run 375s via Dartford before?

Many times on diversion to get to Rochester via Lewisham / Dartford / Strood when the Chatham Main Line is closed.

I've also been on a 375 that due to some kind of incident was routed that way in the morning from Medway to Victoria

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Why can't South Eastern have regular say 10-15 min gaps in the timetables like over on Southern/South Western instead of the larger 20-30 min gaps? It seems like that SE suburban services are the poor relation of the three railways south of the river.