TPE franchise to move to OLR

[Parjon]

I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked.

Then they should be raising grievances, potentially even so far as to going on strike until the grievances are dealt with. Not day in day out taking it out on those that need the trains to run by not doing their jobs normally. Strikes would also be disruptive, but at least bring matters to a head.

The staff might be being treated shabbily, but that's nothing compared to the misery, stress and worry being collectively dumped on those trying to get to work. Who also have to pay for the staff wages.

 

[driver9000]

Then they should be raising grievances, potentially even so far as to going on strike until the grievances are dealt with. Not day in day out taking it out on those that need the trains to run by not doing their jobs normally. Strikes would also be disruptive, but at least bring matters to a head.

The staff might be being treated shabbily, but that's nothing compared to the misery, stress and worry being collectively dumped on those trying to get to work. Who also have to pay for the staff wages.

Grievances has been raised and ignored so staff have been balloted and a strike mandate for ASLEF at least now exists to be used if necessary. Day in day out front line staff are doing their jobs normally too and it is not their actions that are causing the disruption. Maybe OLR will be able to make the breakthrough First either couldn't or wouldn't make.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...In my field one of the most toxic working environments occurred when two parallel departments were put together and the different working practices and cultures clashed...

For context, what (without going into details) was the field of work? Presumably, it was outside the rail industry.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

OLR management hasn't been able to resolve the strike action at its other TOCs (LNER, Northern, Southeastern).
Mick Whelan, who has just been on R4 Today, called it a Tory dispute, not a union dispute, noting the settlements at TfW, Scotrail, TfL etc.
He doesn't appear to have the presentational skills of Mick Lynch though, and came over rather incoherent at times in his interview with Nick Robinson.
He said there had been no contact with the new TPE management, and that nothing would change until there was a different management approach.
He also defended striking on days of major national events.

 

[Bantamzen]

For context, what (without going into details) was the field of work? Presumably, it was outside the rail industry.

It was government, public facing departments.

 

[josh-j]

2015 to 2022 TPE has received over £610m of government subsidy. We will need to wait for an update in November for 2023. But even in the good years the franchise only paid the government £55m. So I'm not seeing the alledged revenue extraction.

I did word that poorly - I didn't mean revenue, just money in general. Basically trying to cut everything to the bone rather than provide proper funding for a public service.

We lease what should be "our" trains from companies based in tax havens; that's the extraction of money from the railway, and wastage of public money which the government are happy to enable. Then they say subsidies must be reduced, which is just another way of saying they want to cut public transport funding.

Anyway I've ranted enough about that!

 

[muz379]

Then they should be raising grievances, potentially even so far as to going on strike until the grievances are dealt with. Not day in day out taking it out on those that need the trains to run by not doing their jobs normally. Strikes would also be disruptive, but at least bring matters to a head.

The staff might be being treated shabbily, but that's nothing compared to the misery, stress and worry being collectively dumped on those trying to get to work. Who also have to pay for the staff wages.

What when the greivances are ignored . Another dispute to add onto the pile , it would just be a total paper exercise .

I am not even convinced that individually raising greivances is the most appropriate resolution to staff collectively being treated badly .

 

[driver9000]

What when the greivances are ignored . Another dispute to add onto the pile , it would just be a total paper exercise .

I am not even convinced that individually raising greivances is the most appropriate resolution to staff collectively being treated badly .

They have been raised collectively.

 

[EZJ]

Then they should be raising grievances, potentially even so far as to going on strike until the grievances are dealt with. Not day in day out taking it out on those that need the trains to run by not doing their jobs normally. Strikes would also be disruptive, but at least bring matters to a head.

The staff might be being treated shabbily, but that's nothing compared to the misery, stress and worry being collectively dumped on those trying to get to work. Who also have to pay for the staff wages.

Sorry but your post just shows how little knowledge you have about what's going on.
People come in everyday and go beyond what they should do "normally"
Trying to put any sort of blame at the workers door is very ignorant of you.

 

[Parjon]

Trying to put any sort of blame at the workers door is very ignorant of you.

Given how unionised the industry is, there is no question in my mind that you all bear collective responsibility for what's been going on. Rumbling intransigence for months on end isn't resolving anything and isn't what people pay any of you for.

 

[baz962]

Given how unionised the industry is, there is no question in my mind that you all bear collective responsibility for what's going on. Rumbling intransigence for months on end isn't resolving anything and isn't what people pay any of you for.

So what do you think staff aren't doing that they should be?

 

[Parjon]

So what do you think staff aren't doing that they should be?

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

 

[baz962]

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

Well I don't know why there wasn't any running, what was the reason? Pretty sure that any staff booked to work would be working.

 

[muz379]

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

Im sure in your mind it sounds as easy as the traincrew rocking up to the depot and picking up a train of their choice and taking it wherever they want to go .

But the job really doesn't work like that

 

[Parjon]

Well I don't know why there wasn't any running, what was the reason? Pretty sure that any staff booked to work would be working.

Well they were all p coded cancelled so there you have it. And yes, I too am certain the staff were turning up to work, physically, and doing precisely what they are told to do. And only that.

If they are at all bothered about the trains not running, however, passengers are yet to see any evidence of them trying to do anything about it.

How bad the service is, and how there doesn't seem to be any prospect of improvement, it would seem more straightforward to shut the route down, lay off the staff, close the company and start the long process of creating something new on an incremental basis.

 

[baz962]

Well they were all p coded cancelled so there you have it. And yes, I too am certain the staff were turning up to work, physically, and doing precisely what they are told to do. And only that.

If they are at all bothered about the trains not running, however, passengers are yet to see any evidence of them trying to do anything about it.

How bad the service is, and how there doesn't seem to be any prospect of improvement, it would seem more straightforward to shut the route down, lay off the staff, close the company and start the long process of creating something new on an incremental basis.

P coded and cancelled. So how is that a train crew fault. If a driver turns up for work and has a diagram and a train, they drive it. If they turn up for work and it's cancelled, then what can they do.

 

[LowLevel]

Well they were all p coded cancelled so there you have it. And yes, I too am certain the staff were turning up to work, physically, and doing precisely what they are told to do. And only that.

If they are at all bothered about the trains not running, however, passengers are yet to see any evidence of them trying to do anything about it.

How bad the service is, and how there doesn't seem to be any prospect of improvement, it would seem more straightforward to shut the route down, lay off the staff, close the company and start the long process of creating something new on an incremental basis.

You can't just turn up to work and decide "ah yes, I'll get on a train and take that one as there's a bit of a gap". TPE's chosen method of crewing trains with lots of staff only working short distances creates massive issues that simply don't exist elsewhere.

Where I work we are in dispute as TPE are. But the staff/management relations have remained fairly friendly, even cordial, throughout and goodwill and flexibility still exist. Consequently if rosters call me to ask me to change shift to cover a gap, I'll usually say yes, provided it's not putting me out too much. I was on the other day and missed my booked working due to disruption. An hour later two minutes after a train to the opposite side of the country to my booked job should have departed my phone rang and the train crew supervisor asked me if I would work it and of course I said yes.

I suspect the issues on TPE are of such magnitude that the coordinating staff are pretty much overwhelmed.

The staff themselves spend all day every day being complained at and even stranded themselves through trains not being present.

The Government attempts to force through these T&C changes at all costs are the problem and I hope there's a reckoning for the individuals involved in the future.

 

[Energy]

Well they were all p coded cancelled so there you have it.

P coding happens before 2200 the night before. It wasn't the train crew who cancelled the train...

and doing precisely what they are told to do. And only that.

They can't un-cancel the train?

TPE does staffing by breaking down the service into short bits which greatly increases the chance of part of it being cancelled. Train crew now sign a more limited amount of stock and routes so are less flexible. As such if the stock is in the wrong place from a previous cancellation it can pretty quickly turn into many trains being cancelled.

 

[142blue]

The only external change you'll see is the removal of references to First Group.

That's a selling point for me

 

[EZJ]

Given how unionised the industry is, there is no question in my mind that you all bear collective responsibility for what's been going on. Rumbling intransigence for months on end isn't resolving anything and isn't what people pay any of you for.

You really are just making yourself look silly now, you clearly haven't a clue about what you're rambling on about and obviously have a bee in your bonnet with traincrew. So I'll leave it there with any sort of discussion with you as I'm fairly sure it would be a waste of time.

 

[800001]

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

To me it’s sound like the company don’t employ enough staff to cover the service.
If staff were available the trains would of run!

 

[43066]

Then they should be raising grievances, potentially even so far as to going on strike until the grievances are dealt with

They’re on strike today, are they not?

Not day in day out taking it out on those that need the trains to run by not doing their jobs normally.

I don’t think you understand what working to rule is. They are doing their jobs “normally”, strictly to the letter. They just aren’t going above and beyond what’s necessary.

If the service collapses as a result, it’s hardly their fault the company hasn’t got enough staff to cope without overtime, or that the route training isn’t sufficient to run the service.

The staff might be being treated shabbily, but that's nothing compared to the misery, stress and worry being collectively dumped on those trying to get to work.

“That’s nothing”?

If don’t care how the staff are being treated, just so long as you can get to work, you shouldn’t be surprised if they don’t care too much about you back!

Who also have to pay for the staff wages.

This is a factually incorrect statement. You’ll find the staffs’ wages are paid by the employer they have a signed contract with.

Tory dispute, not a union dispute, noting the settlements at TfW, Scotrail, TfL etc.

Well… It’s difficult to disagree with that at this juncture. Settlements have been achieved in those areas, with exactly the same unions, yet are being blocked by the government elsewhere. That’s why nothing is changing at TPE.

He doesn't appear to have the presentational skills of Mick Lynch though

Agreed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

Given how unionised the industry is,

It sounds like you just dislike unions for ideological reasons, and won’t accept any interpretation of events other than everything being their fault.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

I know! It's shocking. I saw them just the other day a full mess room of drivers and guards sat there in gales of laughter thinking about all the trains they were cancelling and all the passengers journeys who had been disrupted! Clearly they live for the thrill of ruining people's days. Terrible state of affairs

Meanwhile, in the lass axe grinding world, if the staff were actually available then the trains would have run. But if there are no staff then the train won't run. Perhaps there was some mishmash of staff available (driver that should run service X with guard to run service Y that could have run service Z together) but then that still requires controllers, who themselves are often working at their limit, to spot that this is a possibility in good time for it to actually happen and to deal with the fallout of having staff off diagram (what's the point of running service Z if you end cancelling service A as a result?).

You might like to believe that the staff have a giggle to themselves about disrupting passengers (and I guess maybe there are a tiny minority that do think like that) but from the railway staff I know personally and through this Forum I imagine they're horrified at the quality of service provided but there is precious little that they can do to fix the structural issues of TOCs like TPE which are chronically understaffed and utterly reliant on overtime and good will to run any sort of service.

 

[mike57]

Going to play devils advocate for a minute:

An outgoing government (i.e. one that realises its probably lost the next election whatever is said in public) decides to say "No more", no more subsidies or investment, trains either cover their running costs or dont run. Fares increase, services are drastically reduced (except on TPE they are drastically reduced anyway). Rolling stock and routes mothballed, layoffs.

The overall UK rail subsidy is running at £11billion per year, divide that between the ~30 million taxpayers as an increase in the basic personal tax allowance.

Much shouting in the media, but government know they have probably lost the election so just ignore it.

What percentage of people actually use rail on a regular basis? Would these people change the way they vote, may be, but what about the rest who have just seen a modest increase in take home pay, would they vote differently, and more importantly an incoming governement would have to raise taxes again to restore everything or go to the magic money tree, which as Liz Truss found out, doesn't exist anymore.

OK so this is the nuclear option, but I could see some politicians wishing for a scaled down version, which would still result in serious cuts.

My point: All sides in the current disputes need to take a long hard look at their positions, that incudes management, unions, OLR, remaining ToCs, as they may just be dragging everything down. TPE seem to me to be an example of everything that is currently wrong with the UK rail industry.

 

[baz962]

Going to play devils advocate for a minute:

An outgoing government (i.e. one that realises its probably lost the next election whatever is said in public) decides to say "No more", no more subsidies or investment, trains either cover their running costs or dont run. Fares increase, services are drastically reduced (except on TPE they are drastically reduced anyway). Rolling stock and routes mothballed, layoffs.

The overall UK rail subsidy is running at £11billion per year, divide that between the ~30 million taxpayers as an increase in the basic personal tax allowance.

Much shouting in the media, but government know they have probably lost the election so just ignore it.

What percentage of people actually use rail on a regular basis? Would these people change the way they vote, may be, but what about the rest who have just seen a modest increase in take home pay, would they vote differently, and more importantly an incoming governement would have to raise taxes again to restore everything or go to the magic money tree, which as Liz Truss found out, doesn't exist anymore.

OK so this is the nuclear option, but I could see some politicians wishing for a scaled down version, which would still result in serious cuts.

My point: All sides in the current disputes need to take a long hard look at their positions, that incudes management, unions, OLR, remaining ToCs, as they may just be dragging everything down. TPE seem to me to be an example of everything that is currently wrong with the UK rail industry.

Except what you are missing isn't necessarily a payrise percentage, but the absolute nonsense the government wants for it. I personally would take the 4% for this year and the same for last year and that's letting them off the hook for the zero % in 2021. But I absolutely won't be agreeing to some of the conditions they want.

 

[muz379]

TPE does staffing by breaking down the service into short bits which greatly increases the chance of part of it being cancelled. Train crew now sign a more limited amount of stock and routes so are less flexible. As such if the stock is in the wrong place from a previous cancellation it can pretty quickly turn into many trains being cancelled.

In many cases it is not just part cancellations , they will cancel a full round trip for 1 member of crew missing on a circuit that might iclude 5 or 6 different crew changes . So as to avoid stranding the unit somewhere that NWR won't be too happy about like leeds or Man Vic they just cancel the trip throughout .

I guess the issue is , with the current state of play it is going to be difficult to increase crew route or traction knowledge .

but then that still requires controllers, who themselves are often working at their limit, to spot that this is a possibility in good time for it to actually happen and to deal with the fallout of having staff off diagram

Indeed ,not just exclusively TPE but the often overlooked back office functions like control & train planning and the usually unconsidered staff in engineering are not immune to the current state of the industry both in short staffing , industrual unrest and generally unworkable jobs .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

Except what you are missing isn't necessarily a payrise percentage, but the absolute nonsense the government wants for it. I personally would take the 4% for this year and the same for last year and that's letting them off the hook for the zero % in 2021. But I absolutely won't be agreeing to some of the conditions they want.

And the government know full well that what is proposed is unacceptable to the unions

 

[Krokodil]

Given how unionised the industry is, there is no question in my mind that you all bear collective responsibility for what's been going on. Rumbling intransigence for months on end isn't resolving anything and isn't what people pay any of you for.

Rubbish, it wasn't the unions who decided to cut back on measures which cost money but improve resilience, such as route knowledge, Full Crew Working (pairing drivers and guards so that you haven't got seperate trains each missing a different crew member), and through working of crews as far as their hours can take them so that you aren't relying on three or four crews all being in the right place before you can run a train.

And yes, I too am certain the staff were turning up to work, physically, and doing precisely what they are told to do. And only that.

Well you're wrong there, staff aren't turning up in many cases, because they don't exist. For a start, there aren't enough staff at TPE to run the service. Many had already left before last weekend because they are so fed up and would rather tolerate some tedious ballast job than this.

Then the government took over and not everyone elected to TUPE into the new employer. They could legally just leave without working out their notice. So Lime Street alone lost three drivers overnight.

It's sucessive ministers who are at fault here, including the one who ignored advice from his officials and removed First.

 

[66787]

Let's see. For three hours yesterday there were no trains running between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now what would I have expected train operating staff to have been doing during that time... Let me think and get back to you.

It may be that the staff booked to work those trains were on duty and available - however, due to an uncovered part of a job later on - the sets for those particular days haven’t even left the depot.

For example, train comes off the depot and goes A-D to D-A to A-D and back to A again in one day. On this day there are no crew “spare”. If on trip 4/4 there is no driver to take the train from C-B, what happens? There is no one available to put the train on to a depot after trip 1,2 or 3. You can’t just leave a train in a through platform at a major station, and as a result trips 1,2 and 3 all get cancelled due to a small break in the chain later on in the day - long after the crew booked to work trip 1,2 and 3 have probably booked off.

 

[Energy]

It's sucessive ministers who are at fault here, including the one who ignored advice from his officials and removed First.

FirstGroup weren't the problem, they were effectively management contractors from 2020 onwards with the decisions (including the decision to reduce route and traction knowledge) being made by the DfT. FG likely would have been able to fix the issues if left to do it themselves. The decision to remove them is purely political, the public still perceives it as privatised even though it was just another form of OLR.

 

[crablab]

I note that TPE are hiring 'Qualified Train Drivers' in Liverpool according to the First careers portal.

Likewise GWR have a slew of vacancies for qualified applicants.

How does the industry expect to improve crew shortages if they fail to hire externally? It's just robbing Peter to pay Paul.