Trivia: Place names where ALL the vowels are "wrong"

[Pigeon]

(My bolding) - one might almost say, Welsh vowels (and consonants) have rules; whereas English... By my understanding, Welsh spelling-vis-a-vis pronunciation is reliably phonetic: learn the rules (which strike 100%-English, no-Welsh-language-background me, as not all that daunting) and you'll know how to pronounce words / names. Whereas in England - and it rather seems, also Scotland - pretty well "anything goes".

Gaelic does have reliable phonetic rules. It's just that they're really complicated and also have very little in common with any conventions in English.

In Scotland you also have a lot of place names that have been butchered by being spelt half in English by people who were no good at spelling either language, especially around the populous bits, and similarly with disturbances that originate with the Vikings or other historical invaders. And in South Wales or near the border you get place names that use a mixture of Welsh and English vowel mappings in the same word, or that from the look of them could be using either mapping but you don't know which.

As above: I'm not Welsh and don't claim learned scholarship; but I'd reckon, "Glun-duvr-doo-uh (or perhaps '-ee')" - the "u" 's in the first two syllables, as in "glum".

Y in Welsh is a bit of a bugger because the commonly-stated rule of "it's Y at the end of a word but U earlier in the word" ignores the existence of all the awkward cases. In the German-style compound words you tend to have to reset the rule at the beginning of each sub-unit. And it's O in some cases, like Hywel ("How-el") and Tywyn.

I'd pronounce that "Glin-dover-dwee", more or less, with "dover" as in "pigeoner" rather than like a Channel port.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You're going to get into some controversial discussions re pronunciation and regional variations.

However I'd submit (by your criteria) Lewes - Pronounced Loo-iss.

Years ago when I used the Newhaven-Dieppe route for cheap overnight journeys between London and Paris quite a few times, there were sometimes through trains from Newhaven to London, but often you'd need to change at Lewes. On the trains to Dieppe on those occasions, the French train announcements about the London connections on the other side were a joy to hear ... they really couldn't figure out how to say "Lewes". The commonest effort was something like "Pour Londres, changement à Leurs" (with a clearly pronounced - though not rolled at all - "r").

 

[zwk500]

On the trains to Dieppe on those occasions, the French train announcements about the London connections on the other side were a joy to hear ... they really couldn't figure out how to say "Lewes".

Given what the brits do to some French pronunciations I'll give them that one!
I've heard BBC sports people pronounce it as 'Loos' before on the football results.

 

[Mat17]

Alfreton. Three syllables; the first one is "oll" (the vowel sound from "doll"); the second one is "frit" (short 'i'), and the third one is "un" - rhymes with "gun". So Alfreton should be spelt "Olfritun". Any other contenders for a similar vowel shift?

I had no idea it was "oll" - I've always said Alf-ri-tun.

Dodworth - is of course Dod'uth

 

[duncombec]

Not sure if this really is infrastructure but a few more names;

Doublebois versus Dobwalls (Cornwall)

As Snowball said in the post below yours, these are two different places, and are both pronounced as you'd read them - 'dubble-boyz' and 'dob-wallz' - the latter was the other half of a relative's parish council.

 

[Calthrop]

Y in Welsh... And it's O in some cases, like Hywel ("How-el") and Tywyn.

So the place where the Talyllyn Railway meets the standard gauge, is actually pronounced ?"Toe-in"; ?"Tow [to rhyme with 'cow']-in"... not "Tuh-w[u or i]n" --- I'd imagined that the old spelling "Towyn" was just a result of the English neither knowing nor caring much... and there is, is there not, a village on Wales's north coast, still spelt "Towyn"? Crazy place, this Wales !

I'd pronounce that "Glin-dover-dwee", more or less, with "dover" as in "pigeoner" rather than like a Channel port.

Thanks !

Given what the brits do to some French pronunciations I'll give them that one!
I've heard BBC sports people pronounce it as 'Loos' before on the football results.

And to completely confuse things -- isn't there a town in France actually called Loos? (don't know how it might be pronounced.) In the far north -- much fought-over in World War I?

 

[zwk500]

And to completely confuse things -- isn't there a town in France actually called Loos? (don't know how it might be pronounced.) In the far north -- much fought-over in World War I?

There is - I'm not going to pronounce it either haha, up in Pas-de-Calais area, and so very much not on the route from Paris to Dieppe to Newhaven to London. It is however, an understandable pronunciation given that most people would take the town as lewe-s rather than lew-es. A confusion not helped by the town being on a River Ouse, pronounced as you would expect 'ooze'. There's some dispute over the origin of the name, but it's generally agreed it was Anglo-Saxon and didn't have the 's', which was a Norman addition (in the same way London becomes Londres in French).

 

[Llanigraham]

As above: I'm not Welsh and don't claim learned scholarship; but I'd reckon, "Glun-duvr-doo-uh (or perhaps '-ee')" -- the "u" 's in the first two syllables, as in "glum".

Almost, but when "y" follows a "w", especialy at the end of a word, it isn't prononced as a "u", so
Glin duff rid we

Dduallt ?

Edit: perhaps not; as I think only one of the vowels is wrong?

Two Welsh and English vowels, but the first 3 letters are pronounced "thee" so only the "a" is sounded, as in the first letter of "apple", then the bit (ll) that the english seem to have the biggest problem with.

Only if one uses the English alphabet. I'll leave it to Welsh speaker to explain!

Will that do?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

So the place where the Talyllyn Railway meets the standard gauge, is actually pronounced ?"Toe-in"; ?"Tow [to rhyme with 'cow']-in"... not "Tuh-w[u or i]n" --- I'd imagined that the old spelling "Towyn" was just a result of the English neither knowing nor caring much... and there is, is there not, a village on Wales's north coast, still spelt "Towyn"? Crazy place, this Wales !

Pedantry alert.
The Tallyllyn starts at TYWYN. The place on the north coast is TOWYN.
However they are both pronounced basically the same,
TOW (that rhymes with the row you have with your partner, not what you do in a boat) WIN.

 

[32475]

For Thanet read FANNIT

 

[Calthrop]

Pedantry alert.
The Tallyllyn starts at TYWYN. The place on the north coast is TOWYN.
However they are both pronounced basically the same,
TOW (that rhymes with the row you have with your partner, not what you do in a boat) WIN.

Got it ! Thanks.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The one that caught me out years ago was Worstead. Locally known as Wustid

 

[randyrippley]

Quernmore near Lancaster

pronounced Kwormer

 

[Freightmaster]

Quernmore near Lancaster

pronounced Kwormer

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.


Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?




MARK

 

[nw1]

Alsager at the other end of the line to Crewe - Orlsajer.
That's also about the western end of the "duck" dialect, before it becomes the north-west "love".
Congleton is a duck town too, but I don't think Crewe is.

For many, many years I thought Alsager had a hard "g". Certainly well into adulthood. And I didn't know until today that the "A" was pronounced "Or".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

Meopham on the Chatham main line pronounced as 'Meppum'

One way of remembering: MEPpum, served by VEPs and CEPs. (At least it was in the late 20th century).

Again I didn't know until early 1996 that it wasn't "Me-op-um". Passed through it in 1986 but didn't hear it on an announcement until 1996.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.


Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?



MARK

Cluffton?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

The OS map shows both of these, about a mile apart!

(Doublebois and Dobwalls, Cornwall)

That reminds me of the rather Biblical-sounding Rejerrah, somewhere in Cornwall west of Newquay, which I passed through, or near (see below!) in 1995/96 or so.

There seemed to be three Rejerrahs, one signposted along a lane to the north of the main road, and one signposted along a line to the south of the main road. And a third, because the main road itself had a (welcome to) "REJERRAH" sign. Made the place seem decidedly mysterious.

I don't know how you pronounce it, though. My attempt was RE-JU-RAAH with an emphasis on the third syllable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.

Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?

Ker-laff-ton?

 

[nw1]

I always feel that the above-bolded ought to be in Germany... another, and particularly fiendish, Scottish place-name is Kilncadzow in South Lanark (near Lanark town) -- pronounced, we are informed, something like "Kill-cay-geh". This name has had some discussion on the Forums in the past couple of years: including folks' remarking more than once, that a settlement with a name like that ought to be in Poland rather than Scotland.

(Friockheim, Scotland)

Contrast to this, which sounds like a Sussex village, yet is in Germany, not far from Strasbourg:

Gamshurst - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also in the area, Legelshurst in which admittedly the first half sounds German.

On a similar theme of settlements which sound like they ought to be in another country, in the same general area we have Pfaffenhoffen, over the border in France, but admittedly once German.
And then Capel-le-Ferne near Dover, albeit within sight of France. (I've always imagined the "Capel" being pronounced in the French way, but having learnt in around 2003 that the similar Surrey place is CAYpel, perhaps not).

And I always thought the commonly-mispronounced Wisbech looks distinctly German: I can imagine it being pronounced "VIS-bech" (German-style "ch"). And Sandbach, I guess, would be equally valid as a German name.

 

[Pigeon]

And to completely confuse things - isn't there a town in France actually called Loos? (don't know how it might be pronounced.) In the far north - much fought-over in World War I?

Yep. Dozen or two miles south of Wipers

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.


Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?




MARK

Complete guess, but is it "Claw-tun"?

 

[nw1]

Complete guess, but is it "Claw-tun"?

I'd guess that would be the obvious pronunciation and therefore wrong. (That would certainly be my attempt, in the absence of any other evidence).

Of course it could be a trick question

 

[zwk500]

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.


Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?

Is it 'Hathersage?'

My first attempt would be Claw-tun, as above so my actual guess is Clow-tun.

 

[nw1]

Caldercruix is an odd one in Scotland (new-ish station on the Airdrie-Bathgate line).

Attempt one : "Calder-cruicks" (obviously wrong)

Attempt two: "Calder-cruee". (pseudo-French pronunciation, because "cruix" looks a bit French, presumably also wrong).

Attempt three: "Calder-crux".

Attempt four: "Throatwobbler Mangrove".

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Dduallt ?

So, how's this Welsh place name correctly pronounced?

 

[Llanigraham]

And I always thought the commonly-mispronounced Wisbech looks distinctly German: I can imagine it being pronounced "VIS-bech" (German-style "ch"). And Sandbach, I guess, would be equally valid as a German name.

Sanbach could also be Welsh being close to the border.

So, how's this Welsh place name correctly pronounced?

See post 68

 

[Mcr Warrior]

See post 68

So, 'Dduallt' would be maybe something approximating as "thee-ath-t".

Sanbach could also be Welsh being close to the border.

Could be, but probably isn't. The "bach" part of Sandbach most likely means stream, valley or brook in Anglo Saxon, (rather than "small" as it might in Welsh). And the place name is usually pronounced as "Sand-batch".

 

[Freightmaster]

Complete guess, but is it "Claw-tun"?

My first attempt would be Claw-tun, as above so my actual guess is Clow-tun.

All wrong, I'm afraid!


I'll leave it to the indomitable Tom Scott to pronounce it for you:

(that video is well worth a watch, BTW)







MARK

 

[zwk500]

All wrong, I'm afraid!


I'll leave it to the indomitable Tom Scott to pronounce it for you:

(that video is well worth a watch, BTW)

What's slightly annoying for me is that I've watched that video before but it didn't ring a bell. Ah well. Agree it's an interesting video

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.

Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?

Ker-laff-ton?

All wrong, I'm afraid!

Not fairly close?

 

[randyrippley]

We've got a few round here - another good one is Claughton, on the A683 near Hornby.


Anyone not from 'these parts' like to guess how it is pronounced?




MARK

What makes Claughton worse is that locally we also have Claughton-on-Brock down near Garstang, and another Claughton on the Wirral - and all pronounced differently

 

[mr_jrt]

Possibly relevant, I found this a few years ago and found it very interesting:

Placenames are quite likely to be old words with sticky pronunciation, so are likely to have preserved the old vowel sounds. Prime example being the "shure" pronunciation in Hertfordshire, Gloucestershire, etc.

 

[bradleyd]

Genuine question - is Welsh supposed to use a different alphabet (or variant glyphs)?

English place names (and indeed people's names) could often have multiple spellings even in official documents until about the 17th/18th centuries, each reflecting a slightly different phonetic pronunciation (I suspect based upon the interpretation of whichever clerk asked whichever local at the time). So the spelling that became standard may reflect a dead accent, or the local lord's pronunciation that was very much not followed by the locals. There's a village in Sussex called Folkington, pronounced Fo'in'ton.

There's a village in Lincolnshire called folkingham that's pronounced fuknum, and close by, threekingham that's th(f)recknun