Why do Govia Thameslink Railway not have enough planning staff?

[infobleep]

If this is the wrong place for this then please move. I couldn't find a thread covering this.

Why does Govia Thameslink Railway not have enough planning staff?

Is it due to staff retiring and not being able to find staff to replace them or did they cut the resources by too much in the past to save money? Maybe it's another reason for a combination.

 

[ExRes]

How do you know that they don't have enough staff or is just your opinion?

 

[JonathanH]

Is your real question actually about why they put out odd timetables on RMT strike days where the services via Redhill finish at 6pm, and those on the Quarry line contine until 9pm, even though Thameslink is fully DOO, the drivers self dispatch, and the stations are often unstaffed?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Or why, on a day of an ASLEF overtime ban, they ran an RMT strike-day timetable and thought no compensation comparable to RMT strike-day was due?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2023 ==

Something that really can only be explained by planning teams being under-resourced.

 

[JonathanH]

Something that really can only be explained by planning teams being under-resourced.

Not really under resourced in the normal course of events, just not able to cope with the volume of work that the current disputes entail.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Who said they didn't have enough?

They defintley do in comparison to the rest of the industry.

There is an argument to be made in general that the industry should have more planning staff, but there is defintley enough to do the job and have some contingency as well.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Not really under resourced in the normal course of events, just not able to cope with the volume of work that the current disputes entail.

3 weeks to come up with 1 additional timetable…

 

[ComUtoR]

3 weeks to come up with 1 additional timetable…

How long should an additional timetable take ?

 

[The Planner]

Is this a "why can't they resource an amended timetable as well as the day job" question? Its not as though they can just drop working on other STP weeks entirely without falling way behind.

 

[Clarence Yard]

How long to do an amended timetable? Depends on your geography, the extent of the alteration and your interactions with other TOCs.

You have to be mindful that your unit and crew diagrams have to be adjusted and must adhere to the planning constraints that affect both unit and crew working. Then your timetable has to be validated by NR to make sure there are no external clashes with other operators, who could well be doing the same as you.

Don’t forget you have to transition out of and back into your base timetable & diagrams so that’s another lot of work. And all the time you still have your normal STP workload of future engineering work to do.

 

[Watershed]

They are definitely under-resourced compared to other TOCs, who haven't had to resort to running an RMT strike day timetable just because of ASLEF withdrawing RDW.

As for the reasons, their low pay - just over £20k for an entry level role based at Kings Cross the last time I looked - probably doesn't help.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They are definitely under-resourced compared to other TOCs, who haven't had to resort to running an RMT strike day timetable just because of ASLEF withdrawing RDW.

As for the reasons, their low pay - just over £20k for an entry level role based at Kings Cross the last time I looked - probably doesn't help.

This is not true.

 

[Clarence Yard]

And I wouldn’t be making the assumption that the choice of service offered has been dictated entirely by the workload on the planners.

Sometimes TOC Directors will take an “easy” route, especially when there is no longer any revenue reason to carry out the extra work. I don’t know if this is the case here but it has happened elsewhere.

 

[Minstral25]

GTR's lack of "time available for planning staff" has been quoted many times by the stakeholder teams for the rubbish timetables being put on. Such as withdrawing 4 services every hour and then pathing the 2 remaining trains within 10 minutes along the Redhill route leaving a 50 minute gap in services during recent strikes. They had 6 paths to choose from and decided to run the 2 closest.

Personally, I think it is more Clarence Yard's explanation that management are taking an easy route for less cost, and ducking out of responsibility. It is noticeable that Management at GTR has, shall we say "disappeared" , in last 12 months (to keep it polite).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

GTR's lack of "time available for planning staff" has been quoted many times by the stakeholder teams for the rubbish timetables being put on. Such as withdrawing 4 services every hour and then pathing the 2 remaining trains within 10 minutes along the Redhill route leaving a 50 minute gap in services during recent strikes. They had 6 paths to choose from and decided to run the 2 closest.

Personally, I think it is more Clarence Yard's explanation that management are taking an easy route for less cost, and ducking out of responsibility. It is noticeable that Management at GTR has, shall we say "disappeared" , in last 12 months (to keep it polite).

Did they specifically refer to a lack of 'their own' planning staff, or just planning staff in general? (Which could be referring to Network Rail who certainly can be considered to be under-resourced at busy times.)

 

[Clarence Yard]

They may also be “planning to diagram”, which is to say that you try and avoid wholesale changes to diagram structure (to save time and effort) and plan your trains accordingly.

Depending on your diagram structure, recasting services can be a nightmare because, although the train pathing is easy, making the crew work isn’t.

I have some sympathy with their position because planning north of the river in strike circumstances can’t be that easy. It’s not something that can be done in a few days, because of the interactions with other TOCs.

 

[Minstral25]

They may also be “planning to diagram”, which is to say that you try and avoid wholesale changes to diagram structure (to save time and effort) and plan your trains accordingly.

Depending on your diagram structure, recasting services can be a nightmare because, although the train pathing is easy, making the crew work isn’t.

I have some sympathy with their position because planning north of the river in strike circumstances can’t be that easy. It’s not something that can be done in a few days, because of the interactions with other TOCs.

I had some sympathy as it is difficult to organise multiple changes for different types of strikes but.....

From Redhill, we normally get 4 to the core and 2 to Victoria. Victoria's have all gone (bar some very early morning) - then 1 of the 4 to the core is going through and 1 other terminating at London Bridge (2 peak services go through to Bedford), the other 2 have gone.

Lack of Management thought means GTR decided to use a pair from same half hour meaning the other half hour is fully unserved and hence the 50 minute gap.
How hard would it have been to use the opposite half hour diagram of the core service to serve London Bridge making an even service - I suspect not very hard. No new diagrams just one that it is used every day!

Also, the smaller stations are reduced to one train an hour. So Merstham and Coulsdon South have gone from 4 (6 at peak) trains per hour to just 1. However that 1 is so full before it arrives that people cannot physically get on (local Rail Rep was at Coulsdon South to see multiple trains and estimated 150 plus could not get on train) - remember this is a 12 coach Class 700! and then they have an hour to wait for the next one! Meanwhile at least 1 more service goes through half-empty because it is in a diagram that doesn't call at this stations.

Yet, when you suggest to GTR adaptions to services to sort this out, they say there are no planners available to sort it out and they hope they maybe able to get to it if there are future strikes. A year ago they would have worked hard on this but they appear to lack any willingness to help now.

Meanwhile Passengers are very frustrated and my sympathy has waned.

I can pin these management failings to starting precisely when a certain manager left GTR.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I can pin these management failing to starting precisely when a certain manager left GTR.

I pray for the day he returns.

 

[WAB]

A look through Linkedin to see the number of trainee and placement train planners at GTR will be quite illuminating. This year, they were offering university students going on placement £25.5k plus the usual benefits to take the year out to learn train planning on a 13-month contract. This was readvertised several times including this month; the repeated re-advertisements and adverts so late in the academic year are of note.

Train planning units at NWR and TOCs range from scraping by to being chronically understaffed. The industrial action obviously doesn't help but that capacity ought to be in place to deal with unexpected events (and is industrial action really that unexpected at this point?) The only ways out of the train planning maelstrom are either a significant increase in salaries and posts in train planning units, or a considerable automation of STP work. I wouldn't do much breath-holding if I were you...

 

[The Planner]

Increase in posts doesnt help if you cannot keep them. Money is more the issue.

 

[Watershed]

Increase in posts doesnt help if you cannot keep them. Money is more the issue.

Exactly. Other TOCs pay more, for jobs in far less expensive places to live than London.

It's no different to the wage spiral for drivers. People naturally gravitate towards employers with higher pay.

Of course, in a sensible, well-organised industry you wouldn't have 20-odd companies paying significantly different rates for what are essentially identical jobs.

 

[The Planner]

Exactly. Other TOCs pay more, for jobs in far less expensive places to live than London.

It's no different to the wage spiral for drivers. People naturally gravitate towards employers with higher pay.

Of course, in a sensible, well-organised industry you wouldn't have 20-odd companies paying significantly different rates for what are essentially identical jobs.

Indeed, you would probably bin off a large amount of NR planners and use TOC/FOC ones.

 

[MrJeeves]

Is your real question actually about why they put out odd timetables on RMT strike days where the services via Redhill finish at 6pm, and those on the Quarry line contine until 9pm, even though Thameslink is fully DOO, the drivers self dispatch, and the stations are often unstaffed?

And the same question goes for why services (strike day, late night, early morning) also stop calling at some of the smaller commuter stations in the south at the same time (Burgess Hill - Preston Park) when some of these would be unstaffed anyway at that time.

 

[jamesst]

And the same question goes for why services (strike day, late night, early morning) also stop calling at some of the smaller commuter stations in the south at the same time (Burgess Hill - Preston Park) when some of these would be unstaffed anyway at that time.

Is this more to speed up journey times thus being able to do more with less units and staff?

 

[43066]

Of course, in a sensible, well-organised industry you wouldn't have 20-odd companies paying significantly different rates for what are essentially identical jobs.

A competitive market free to set their own rates is no different to what happens in virtually every industry. And who’s to say they are virtually identical jobs?

Unless we want to live in a command economy, it’s right to let the market set the rate, rather than to have some arbitrary figure set by the government. If GTR are short of staff the natural response is to increase pay to the point where they can attract and retain them.

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course, in a sensible, well-organised industry you wouldn't have 20-odd companies paying significantly different rates for what are essentially identical jobs.

Rates are often different because of location. Regional variances in pay differ significantly because cost of living across the country varies, as well as constraints on recruitment.

They may appear to be identical jobs but they really aren't. Again, regional differences play a huge part. Planning a major metro terminal is significantly more difficult that a rural backwater branch line. It's also a matter of dealing with crew depots too. Speaking to someone in our STP department; she often struggles with the differences across all the depots.

STP and LTP are also very different, as well as there being various roles within the planning departments.

It's always more complicated than it appears on the surface.

 

[infobleep]

Not really under resourced in the normal course of events, just not able to cope with the volume of work that the current disputes entail.

Why is this issue not occurring with other TOCs. Is that because they have a different make up of staff in the different unions for the issue not to occur? At least not the other ones I use, as far as I am aware.

 

[JonathanH]

Why is this issue not occurring with other TOCs. Is that because they have a different make up of staff in the different unions for the issue not to occur? At least not the other ones I use, as far as I am aware.

It was suggested in a previous thread that the traincrew workings are too complicated to break down for a smaller contingent of staff to work, since at some point it is likely that a particular working would need to be covered by overtime.

Therefore, they don't just have a plan 'on the shelf' to implement with more simple workings.

 

[brick60000]

A look through Linkedin to see the number of trainee and placement train planners at GTR will be quite illuminating. This year, they were offering university students going on placement £25.5k plus the usual benefits to take the year out to learn train planning on a 13-month contract. This was readvertised several times including this month; the repeated re-advertisements and adverts so late in the academic year are of note.

Quite common in the industry. GTR, XC, SWR, LO - all offer placement programs (or have recently) that are very popular amongst transport graduates.

I’d argue these are a positive - recruiting young blood into train planning to address a very stark skills shortage.

 

[infobleep]

So is the issue more that GTR interact with more TOCs than other operators and that is why it is harder for them to modify their timetables?

I work in an industry that can be under resourced and stuff just doesn't get done as a result. So I was coming at this with that perspective in mind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2023 ==

It was suggested in a previous thread that the traincrew workings are too complicated to break down for a smaller contingent of staff to work, since at some point it is likely that a particular working would need to be covered by overtime.

Therefore, they don't just have a plan 'on the shelf' to implement with more simple workings.

Would that not be the case for many other TOCs or are their crew diagrams less complicated? After all wouldn't all TOCs rely on overtime?

I originally thought the reason they can't run a bigger timetable was due to needing more staff for overtime but then I read in another thread that wasn't the issue, it was the planning of timetable.