Special event charters

[Bartsimho]

After looking at the thread on Chiltern asking people not to travel and the old ideas of Football Specials I was thinking are there any events that could do with special charter trains which don't have one.

While it's probably only individual events that could support such operations making them almost useless for a total company could there be enough to stitch together to survive?

I could immediately think Football Specials could with the every Saturday nature of the games?

 

[JonathanH]

Given the going rate for other kinds of charters, which also operate on Saturdays, and which generally make some of their money from offering on board meals, I don't think a charter for football supporters is going to be viable.

The Northern Belle can sometimes make a trip viable to horse race meetings.

 

[zwk500]

I could immediately think Football Specials could with the every Saturday nature of the games?

Chelsea used to subsidise a Footex for their supporters but it got harder and harder to offer reasonable paths and after a couple of high profile incidents where either departures were missed by fans due to large amounts of injury time, trains simply didn't run due to engineering works, or trains ran at such ungodly hours due to Kickoffs and travel distances that I think they eventually threw in the towel.

It's been tried, but the current railway just doesn't have the flexibility to do it for all but a handful of the biggest games.

 

[Bartsimho]

Chelsea used to subsidise a Footex for their supporters but it got harder and harder to offer reasonable paths and after a couple of high profile incidents where either departures were missed by fans due to large amounts of injury time, trains simply didn't run due to engineering works, or trains ran at such ungodly hours due to Kickoffs and travel distances that I think they eventually threw in the towel.

It's been tried, but the current railway just doesn't have the flexibility to do it for all but a handful of the biggest games.

It might be more possible outside of London due to the massive capacity constraints there. I did find this company offering train hire at not unreasonable prices for Football Fans and the carriages could be in a more basic state than it looks like these are offering: https://www.trainhire.co.uk/index.html

I think some could be economical especially if the originating location has poor Road connections (Looking at the Prem I'm thinking Bournemouth or before this season Southampton)

 

[zwk500]

It might be more possible outside of London due to the massive capacity constraints there. I did find this company offering train hire at not unreasonable prices for Football Fans and the carriages could be in a more basic state than it looks like these are offering: https://www.trainhire.co.uk/index.html

The coaches aren't the problem. It's the loco, driver and guard you need to worry about.

I think some could be economical especially if the originating location has poor Road connections (Looking at the Prem I'm thinking Bournemouth or before this season Southampton)

Bournemouth and Southampton aren't really good examples of areas with less constrained capacity. Given evening and lunchtime kickoffs and the issues STP paths face there just aren't that many matches it makes sense to run them for, and those that do make sense already have them. Other grounds aren't in massively accessible places - Brighton's ground is actually next to Falmer station, limiting train length as it would require a reversal to access and you'd need the platform free while there's a queuing system. If I was organising a footext to Brighton I'd want to run to Lewes and dump everybody onto the shuttle there, which I imagine would thrill the station staff.

Regarding the more general point - for any large event, the general public train plan is boosted to a turn-up-and-go frequency at a local station (sometimes more if it's sensible) and space for additional Charters within that is limited, so it's generally only the premium VIP trains who's customers wouldn't accept being sardined in that try and run to the nearest station rather than just direct customers to make their own way to the appropriate junction station.

 

[JonathanH]

I did find this company offering train hire at not unreasonable prices for Football Fans and the carriages could be in a more basic state than it looks like these are offering: https://www.trainhire.co.uk/index.html

Their case study is from 2012. Are they actually trading?

 

[Bartsimho]

Their case study is from 2012. Are they actually trading?

They're still active on Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03633836

Although it also looks like they aren't in a good state and maybe stopped being active in 2017

 

[greyman42]

Given the going rate for other kinds of charters, which also operate on Saturdays, and which generally make some of their money from offering on board meals, I don't think a charter for football supporters is going to be viable.

The Northern Belle can sometimes make a trip viable to horse race meetings.

I recall Chelsea hiring the Northern Belle stock for a league game at Newcastle.

 

[zwk500]

I recall Chelsea hiring the Northern Belle stock for a league game at Newcastle.

Chelsea would normally have a fairly standard Mk3 set for their charters, although I guess if the Northern Belle was the only thing available (or it was the Chairman's special guests) then it could easily have run.

The Northern Belle and VSOE sets tend to get lots of work for race meetings, and often will do a rugby match or two in the 6 Nations. Football is less common work for them - even the FA Cup, and they also don't do the F1 very much although that may be related to the issue of getting the coach transfer into the course on time so patrons who might have got the posher train fly in instead.

 

[greyman42]

Chelsea would normally have a fairly standard Mk3 set for their charters, although I guess if the Northern Belle was the only thing available (or it was the Chairman's special guests) then it could easily have run.

As far as i am aware there were no board members on it, but all the ticket holders were likely to of been season ticket holders. It all appeared to of been very civilised.

 

[zwk500]

As far as i am aware there were no board members on it, but all the ticket holders were likely to of been season ticket holders. It all appeared to of been very civilised.

It's very possible, would just be unusual as the Belle tends to cost a fair bit more to hire than the Mk3s. Certainly all the Chelsea trains I was involved in used the Mk3s stored at Burton.

 

[Spartacus]

Arsenal used to make extensive use of the Pretendolino set. not just for fans but for players too, and I remember Leeds having a preseason friendly at Celtic, the transport being and Anglia 86 & MkII DBSO set, dragged by a RES 47 between Leeds and York, and coaches between Glasgow Central and Celtic Park. That highlights an issue.

Often grounds don't have an especially convenient station to take a special as increasingly grounds are built away from their traditional urban settings, and even when a ground is close, fitting a busy intercity style slam door service with inevitably longer station dwells between other services isn't altogether easy. So you end up having to run to the nearest big station that can handle a charter sat there for a while, so you might end up needing coaches. If you need to hire coaches anyway, with issues with transfers, the obvious question presents itself, 'do we actually need the train too?'

That said, I've seen all sorts of events have charters planned to them, even flower shows, the RHS show at Tatton Park's had charters at least until a few years ago, using Mobberley station, and the likes of major agricultural shows often have them, though usually TOC operated, such as for the Royal Welsh and Great Yorkshire shows. There's a photo somewhere of QEII waiting for her delayed 'Special Train' home from Hornbeam Park station after the Great Yorkshire Show, if that counts?