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How could Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) services be improved/extended?

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DynamicSpirit

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Oh yes, the N. Kent Line provision is dire now with a badly timed 4tph.

Yeah tell me about it. I'm currently sitting on a Cannon Street to Gravesend service that literally runs 6 minutes after the Cannon Street to Dartford service that has the same stopping pattern! I mean if you are going to put 4 tph on the line, surely you can do better than 6 min then 24 min intervals!
 
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Benjwri

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The 4tph to Heathrow Express being the most ineffective really.

The Elizabeth line could use those paths but it would have to be via either a) cutting across the entire Paddington throat or b) regular timetabled crossing moves at Acton West junction.
Why should they go to the Elizabeth Line? The rest of the GWR network has suffered for years because there isn’t space into Paddington and almost all their long distance services have to end there. Why should the Elizabeth Line, which is suffering some fairly mild reliability issues compared to the rest of GWR, take the slots when the rest of the network is dealing with severe overcrowding and not being able to get on trains.

The Elizabeth Line already has taken 12tph worth of slots, more than any other operator. And yet has managed to reduce connectivity to West London for some. If the Heathrow slots were to be released I think it would only be fair to allow them to be used for the rest of the country.
 

PGAT

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It isn’t feasible for the Elizabeth Line to use the fast slots in any way, shape or form anyway
 

Irascible

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Why should they go to the Elizabeth Line? The rest of the GWR network has suffered for years because there isn’t space into Paddington and almost all their long distance services have to end there.

Wonder if there's future spare capacity between OOC and Euston ( snork ). That'd be a very delayed piece of history...

The line is an astonishingly fast way to get into town, and if I still lived in inner N London I'd be considering moving - the Victoria line might have been ( and still is I guess ) quite rapid compared to alternatives ( not least faffing around going through KingsX or Liverpool St ) but the new line is in it's own class, and there comes a point where utility beats a few mins extra speed. I'm a little less enthused with using it for moving around the Thames valley, but thankfully I don't have to do that much anymore.
 

NorthKent1989

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Dartford used to have a slightly faster semi-fast service, the old Gillingham to Charing X service which after Dartford just stopped at Abbey Wood, Woolwich A, Charlton, Blackheath and Lewisham. This was replaced by the TL service, which stops nearly everywhere.

Just reinstating some of the chopped services on the North Kent Line would be an improvement on the current situation. Yes Crossrail is faster, but if it just took over the lines east of Abbey Wood, then it would be trundling along at the same speed as the current SE trains, especially if it called at all stations.

Yep indeed it did, and before they added Charlton in the 90s, it was roughly 30 mins to London Bridge wasn’t it? a fast service from Medway to Abbey Wood would be handy now for Crossrail connection.

As for the extension, hasn’t it been suggested that the Liz line and Thameslink would run beyond Abbey Wood using the overhead electricity instead of 3rd rail, with Thameslink trains running non stop between Dartford and Abbey Wood?
 

mangyiscute

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Any paths from HeX would almost certainly go to GWR - its a bit odd tho because as someone who travels from Reading on the GWR fast services both east and west quite frequently, its always very unpredictable as to whether trains will be super busy or very empty, so while extra trains are quite often needed I worry they would also quite often be carrying fresh air.
 

Benjwri

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Any paths from HeX would almost certainly go to GWR - its a bit odd tho because as someone who travels from Reading on the GWR fast services both east and west quite frequently, its always very unpredictable as to whether trains will be super busy or very empty, so while extra trains are quite often needed I worry they would also quite often be carrying fresh air.
The loading does vary by train, but GWR knows which trains are busy. Regardless realistically no TOC has the stock or budget to increase services.
 

DynamicSpirit

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One of the frustrating things related to HEX paths is the way the rail lines to Heathrow have been built with a topology that makes it impossible for any one train to serve the entire airport. If the line could have somehow been built to run through all three stations (T123, T4 and T5) in sequence, then the 6tph Elizabeth line airport trains would (with a bit of timetable rejigging to make them regularly spaced) have been completely adequate by themselves to serve the airport, with absolutely no need for anything else.

I wonder whether, given we have the lines we do, it would be possible, without too much infrastructure changes, to just send all Elizabeth line trains one way (say T5) at roughly 10 minute and provide a connecting shuttle for the other terminal (say, T123 to T4) that leaves from the same platform at T123. Then you could free up the HEX paths forr more GWR trains so the lines get more effectively used, which in turn might allow the EL to be pulled back from Reading to at least Maidenhead.
 

mangyiscute

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The loading does vary by train, but GWR knows which trains are busy. Regardless realistically no TOC has the stock or budget to increase services.
If you stopped the HeX services, surely GWR could take the trains and crew from HeX and could use this at least for cardiff services (and bristol/oxford once the electrification is carried out)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wonder whether, given we have the lines we do, it would be possible, without too much infrastructure changes, to just send all Elizabeth line trains one way (say T5) at roughly 10 minute and provide a connecting shuttle for the other terminal (say, T123 to T4) that leaves from the same platform at T123. Then you could free up the HEX paths forr more GWR trains so the lines get more effectively used, which in turn might allow the EL to be pulled back from Reading to at least Maidenhead.
And why would terminating all elizabeth lines at maidenhead be a good thing? The whole idea of them terminating there in the first place was daft, would customers rather travel to Maidenhead station or the second busiest interchange outside of london?
 

mr_jrt

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Very late to the party, but regarding Abbey Wood...

I feel the better option is four-tracking round to Dartford, but if you were to curtail the existing SE lines, could some other "creative" options not be pursued? i.e. once upon a time the Bakerloo was mooted to reach Charlton. I know the Hayes option is currently in favour, but could a Bakerloo projection from Lewisham to Abbey Wood be an option, taking over an appropriate amount of the surface infrastructure? Divert LO from New Cross to Deptford and that can run to Abbey Wood as well preserving the service on that line, sharing with the Bakerloo as it does north of Queens Park.

As for the GWML, it needs 6 tracks to Slough, end of. I've been told before the Hanwell Viaduct's historical status will make that impossible on the surface, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Failing that (and in all likelihood, a better option anyway), bore a HS2-esque tunnel between west of OOC and Slough. Send the fast lines into that, leaving the surface tracks free for CR and freight.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Very late to the party, but regarding Abbey Wood...

I feel the better option is four-tracking round to Dartford, but if you were to curtail the existing SE lines, could some other "creative" options not be pursued? i.e. once upon a time the Bakerloo was mooted to reach Charlton. I know the Hayes option is currently in favour, but could a Bakerloo projection from Lewisham to Abbey Wood be an option, taking over an appropriate amount of the surface infrastructure? Divert LO from New Cross to Deptford and that can run to Abbey Wood as well preserving the service on that line, sharing with the Bakerloo as it does north of Queens Park.

As for the GWML, it needs 6 tracks to Slough, end of. I've been told before the Hanwell Viaduct's historical status will make that impossible on the surface, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Failing that (and in all likelihood, a better option anyway), bore a HS2-esque tunnel between west of OOC and Slough. Send the fast lines into that, leaving the surface tracks free for CR and freight.
Why would that be a good idea. You've got freight to think about so its a non-starter anyway.

Keeping it the same is the best option. And then 4 tracking long term.
 

DynamicSpirit

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And why would terminating all elizabeth lines at maidenhead be a good thing? The whole idea of them terminating there in the first place was daft, would customers rather travel to Maidenhead station or the second busiest interchange outside of london?

I would have said, because they are fundamentally stopping trains. Even the trains that skip a few stations don't actually save any significant time by doing so - they are timetabled between Hayes and London to take almost as long as the stop-everywhere trains. And who wants to travel from Reading or Twyford to London on a stopping train that takes about an hour to do the journey?

You wouldn't run - say = a Basingstoke-to-London train that stops at almost every station along the entire route (unless possibly if it was an attempt to join up two stoppers for scheduling convenience), because that would be useless to the vast majority of people, who'd want to get to London in a reasonable time. Why would you want to do that for Reading?
 

Mikey C

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One of the frustrating things related to HEX paths is the way the rail lines to Heathrow have been built with a topology that makes it impossible for any one train to serve the entire airport. If the line could have somehow been built to run through all three stations (T123, T4 and T5) in sequence, then the 6tph Elizabeth line airport trains would (with a bit of timetable rejigging to make them regularly spaced) have been completely adequate by themselves to serve the airport, with absolutely no need for anything else.

I wonder whether, given we have the lines we do, it would be possible, without too much infrastructure changes, to just send all Elizabeth line trains one way (say T5) at roughly 10 minute and provide a connecting shuttle for the other terminal (say, T123 to T4) that leaves from the same platform at T123. Then you could free up the HEX paths forr more GWR trains so the lines get more effectively used, which in turn might allow the EL to be pulled back from Reading to at least Maidenhead.
Long term, it's possible that if new terminal capacity was built elsewhere in the airport that T4 could be closed completely, as it's a lousy design and poorly located outside the runways, making it a nuisance for the airport.
 

mangyiscute

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I would have said, because they are fundamentally stopping trains. Even the trains that skip a few stations don't actually save any significant time by doing so - they are timetabled between Hayes and London to take almost as long as the stop-everywhere trains. And who wants to travel from Reading or Twyford to London on a stopping train that takes about an hour to do the journey?

You wouldn't run - say = a Basingstoke-to-London train that stops at almost every station along the entire route (unless possibly if it was an attempt to join up two stoppers for scheduling convenience), because that would be useless to the vast majority of people, who'd want to get to London in a reasonable time. Why would you want to do that for Reading?
I'm talking about all the people in west london going to practically anywhere west of London, say a journey from Southall to Bristol, who can now just hop on an elizabeth line train to Reading and then change onto a train to their destination from Reading. Imagine curtailing their service at Maidenhead and then forcing everyone to go through the already crowded london termini.
Especially people coming from Heathrow can change at Hayes and then Reading to access the west, rather than having to go via paddington
 

mr_jrt

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Why would that be a good idea. You've got freight to think about so its a non-starter anyway.

Keeping it the same is the best option. And then 4 tracking long term.

Just saying "freight" isn't helpful. Think about where it's coming from, and where it's going to. AIUI, Angerstein Wharf is the only freight on that line, and it can only head east along the line to Charlton.

There would be nothing stopping that eastbound traffic from sharing with the Bakerloo/LO/CR, other than capacity. I'm not aware of how many trains it runs, but I strongly doubt it's more than one an hour, and even if it was more then a targetted rebuild of Charlton station to enable some services to terminate there would enable the paths further east.
 

Horizon22

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It isn’t feasible for the Elizabeth Line to use the fast slots in any way, shape or form anyway

I stated above how it be, although I agree it unlikely.

Why should they go to the Elizabeth Line? The rest of the GWR network has suffered for years because there isn’t space into Paddington and almost all their long distance services have to end there. Why should the Elizabeth Line, which is suffering some fairly mild reliability issues compared to the rest of GWR, take the slots when the rest of the network is dealing with severe overcrowding and not being able to get on trains.

The Elizabeth Line already has taken 12tph worth of slots, more than any other operator. And yet has managed to reduce connectivity to West London for some. If the Heathrow slots were to be released I think it would only be fair to allow them to be used for the rest of the country.

GWR was able to develop a new timetable for December 2019 whilst TfL still had two trains in the platform. Okay it was a bit tight with creative platforming, but was still feasible. Either way, the HeX slots aren't necessarily the best use of capacity, but would the Elizabeth line service be enough to serve the demand? The Elizabeth line has 12tph on the relief (max), which is the same as on the GEML. It's fairly simple and good practice to use dedicated tracks for certain usage (GWR do use the relief line after Slough, but it's less congested by then).

GWR have a wider problem with stock which makes the platforming issues look mild. Elizabeth line trains get diverted in during disruption without a major issue.

Also where has "connectivity" gone down? Every station has a better service (not to mention significantly longer trains) then it did before. The only issue is that Ealing & Hayes no longer have a faster service towards Slough and Maidenhead, but they do have extra trains (and Ealing gets a faster one in the peak) and I imagine it affected a relatively low number of journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As for the GWML, it needs 6 tracks to Slough, end of. I've been told before the Hanwell Viaduct's historical status will make that impossible on the surface, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Failing that (and in all likelihood, a better option anyway), bore a HS2-esque tunnel between west of OOC and Slough. Send the fast lines into that, leaving the surface tracks free for CR and freight.

Nothing like a bit of optimism about something declared "impossible"!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wonder whether, given we have the lines we do, it would be possible, without too much infrastructure changes, to just send all Elizabeth line trains one way (say T5) at roughly 10 minute and provide a connecting shuttle for the other terminal (say, T123 to T4) that leaves from the same platform at T123. Then you could free up the HEX paths forr more GWR trains so the lines get more effectively used, which in turn might allow the EL to be pulled back from Reading to at least Maidenhead.

The transfer train used to run as part of Heathrow Connect.
 

NorthKent1989

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Very late to the party, but regarding Abbey Wood...

I feel the better option is four-tracking round to Dartford, but if you were to curtail the existing SE lines, could some other "creative" options not be pursued? i.e. once upon a time the Bakerloo was mooted to reach Charlton. I know the Hayes option is currently in favour, but could a Bakerloo projection from Lewisham to Abbey Wood be an option, taking over an appropriate amount of the surface infrastructure? Divert LO from New Cross to Deptford and that can run to Abbey Wood as well preserving the service on that line, sharing with the Bakerloo as it does north of Queens Park.

As for the GWML, it needs 6 tracks to Slough, end of. I've been told before the Hanwell Viaduct's historical status will make that impossible on the surface, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Failing that (and in all likelihood, a better option anyway), bore a HS2-esque tunnel between west of OOC and Slough. Send the fast lines into that, leaving the surface tracks free for CR and freight.

The reason the Hayes line is the preferred option is that it’ll release capacity on the SEML.
 

Benjwri

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GWR was able to develop a new timetable for December 2019 whilst TfL still had two trains in the platform. Okay it was a bit tight with creative platforming, but was still feasible. Either way, the HeX slots aren't necessarily the best use of capacity, but would the Elizabeth line service be enough to serve the demand? The Elizabeth line has 12tph on the relief (max), which is the same as on the GEML. It's fairly simple and good practice to use dedicated tracks for certain usage (GWR do use the relief line after Slough, but it's less congested by then).
I was responding to a comment that suggested removing the HEX services and using the paths for another 2tph of GWR semi fasts from Reading so that Crossrail could run from Maidenhead. My point was that using those slots purely so Elizabeth Line users have a very minor reliability increase is ineffective use of resources, effectively running a double service.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I'm talking about all the people in west london going to practically anywhere west of London, say a journey from Southall to Bristol, who can now just hop on an elizabeth line train to Reading and then change onto a train to their destination from Reading. Imagine curtailing their service at Maidenhead and then forcing everyone to go through the already crowded london termini.
Especially people coming from Heathrow can change at Hayes and then Reading to access the west, rather than having to go via paddington

Yeah, I guess thinking about it, that broader issue here is that, for good connectivity, you really want the metro services to run as far as a station that a reasonable number of longer distance services call at. And you see that on other lines - with metro all/most-stops trains from various London terminals running at least as far as East Croydon, Woking, Bromley South, or Sevenoaks. Other examples are less clear though: Elizabeth line terminates at Shenfield, where medium distance trains call, but the faster ones don't stop until Chelmsford. And Watford Junction - served by LNWR but not significantly (at all?) by Avanti. That does gives an argument for running EL as far as Reading.

Journeys like Twyford-Southall and Reading-Hayes provide another argument, but, how many of those kinds of journeys are there, compared to people wanting to get into London as quickly as they can?

The counter-argument is that there is only a certain level of service that stations like Twyford or Burnham can really provide passenger numbers to support, and wouldn't it be better to provide that service using a good frequency of regularly spaced GWR trains that give quick journey times into Paddington, and the option to change somewhere like Slough to a very frequent metro service for the people who want intermediate stations closer to London - rather than a less frequent fast service intermixed with a less frequent stopping service that's great for intermediate journeys, but not so great for the majority of people who want to go to London?
 

mangyiscute

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Yeah, I guess thinking about it, that broader issue here is that, for good connectivity, you really want the metro services to run as far as a station that a reasonable number of longer distance services call at. And you see that on other lines - with metro all/most-stops trains from various London terminals running at least as far as East Croydon, Woking, Bromley South, or Sevenoaks. Other examples are less clear though: Elizabeth line terminates at Shenfield, where medium distance trains call, but the faster ones don't stop until Chelmsford. And Watford Junction - served by LNWR but not significantly (at all?) by Avanti. That does gives an argument for running EL as far as Reading.

Journeys like Twyford-Southall and Reading-Hayes provide another argument, but, how many of those kinds of journeys are there, compared to people wanting to get into London as quickly as they can?

The counter-argument is that there is only a certain level of service that stations like Twyford or Burnham can really provide passenger numbers to support, and wouldn't it be better to provide that service using a good frequency of regularly spaced GWR trains that give quick journey times into Paddington, and the option to change somewhere like Slough to a very frequent metro service for the people who want intermediate stations closer to London - rather than a less frequent fast service intermixed with a less frequent stopping service that's great for intermediate journeys, but not so great for the majority of people who want to go to London?
But even if you run 4tph semi fast from Reading to London, there would still be plenty of space on the relief lines west of slough to run elizabeth line services there. The issue with doing that would be creating pathing space for the trains to cross onto the fast lines after slough, and removing elizabeth line services won't change that at all. I just don't understand the benefit of curtailing Elizabeth line services at Slough or Maidenhead
 

Horizon22

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I was responding to a comment that suggested removing the HEX services and using the paths for another 2tph of GWR semi fasts from Reading so that Crossrail could run from Maidenhead. My point was that using those slots purely so Elizabeth Line users have a very minor reliability increase is ineffective use of resources, effectively running a double service.

No that isn’t a good idea. My idea was instead to run Elizabeth line services fast from Paddington (having started from Abbey Wood/Shenfield) to Heathrow using a HeX path.

I agree it’s speculative and tricky, but that’s the area of the forum we’re in.
 

PGAT

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In the peaks you do have semi-fasts from Abbey Wood. After Paddington it stops at Ealing Broadway, West Drayton, Slough, Burnham, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading. That's the best option if you want to balance speed and connectivity to West London.
 

mangyiscute

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In the peaks you do have semi-fasts from Abbey Wood. After Paddington it stops at Ealing Broadway, West Drayton, Slough, Burnham, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading. That's the best option if you want to balance speed and connectivity to West London.
And I would ask why can't these run all day?
 

Horizon22

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And I would ask why can't these run all day?

Demand. Have you ever been on a train west of Maidenhead in the off-peak? Only starts to get busy as the school kids get on and even then loads of seats on a 9 car.

The peak trains are an additional, separate 2tph entirely.

As a plus, it allows slightly more efficient crew and fleet diagramming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Probably not enough demand to justify the costs of running these extra services. Just like how the two Eastern branches are 8tph off-peak instead of 12

And even then after Romford that’s plenty of capacity.
 

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I believe it's also to cater for Slough residents who lose their fast GWR service in the peaks
 

Horizon22

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I believe it's also to cater for Slough residents who lose their fast GWR service in the peaks

Yes there used to be several “fast” Didcot / Reading / Maidenhead terminators run by GWR interspersed in the peak but these have all gone now in the May ‘23 timetable
 

NorthKent1989

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For the Dartford extension, you could for track the section between Abbey Wood and Dartford, have the Thameslink’s take the southern tracks that will be the non stop tracks, and then the Liz line will take over the existing track.

Curtail all remaining SE Greenwich line trains at Plumstead, in the meantime the Thameslink would be rerouted to Blackheath and Lewisham, this then solves both the Gillingham and Blackheath/Charlton services question in one as this is the only SE Metro service that is currently 2tph, Thameslink would operate this entire line so you could have this

Elizabeth Line:
- Old Oak Common to Dartford 6tph
- Heathrow to Dartford 3tph
- Reading to Abbey Wood 3tph

South Eastern (via Greenwich)
- Cannon Street to Plumstead 6tph

Thameslink (via Blackheath)
- Rainham to Luton 2tph, fast between Dartford and Abbey Wood, and fast between Lewisham and London Bridge

No more rounders, these would inevitably go if such an extension took place, instead more Sidcup and Bexleyheath line trains could terminate at Gravesend
 
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Benjwri

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My idea was instead to run Elizabeth line services fast from Paddington (having started from Abbey Wood/Shenfield) to Heathrow using a HeX path.
Surely that's even more of a fleet issue than GWR expanding services? There aren't enough trains for an extra 2tph, especially in the peaks, and at least GWR could solve fleet problems with more 387s, or a large new fleet order. To get the stock for your proposed service there would need to be a micro order of 345s, unless bundled with another expansion plan, which would come out eyewateringly expensive on a cost benefit analysis.
 

JonathanH

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I just don't understand the benefit of curtailing Elizabeth line services at Slough or Maidenhead
The point is reliability and having the service in the Crossrail core as self contained as possible. At the moment, it is as if we were running the Victoria Line to Cheshunt with half the service leaving the main route at Seven Sisters and running via Northumberland Park, which no one would consider a good idea
 
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