What could be done to make the Whitby line better?

[mangyiscute]

Whitby line services start from a sub-standard base owing to their unusually low frequency. It is unacceptable to allow their onward connections to progressively decline continually.

so who's service should be cut in order to enable these connections? You cannot make a change that has a benefit to everyone, changes will always be disadvantageous to some and it just so happens that this change is disadvantageous to you,

so please can you suggest exactly how you would implement the timetable and why this is better, considering all of the missed connections by other passengers (say from the Hull train that you would have to move) and not just considering your own journey.

Or just continue to moan, but you can moan as much as you want and nothing is going to change

 

[stevieinselby]

Generally, I disagree with them. There was a route through recently and it needs to come back.

The longer term solution is a decent service on the Whitby line though.

The problem with that is the question of "why" ... because I'm struggling to understand why people would get the train to travel between Middlesbrough and Whitby unless they were taking a bike with them, or at a push making a connecting train journey at Middlesbrough.

Even if you ignore the dismal frequency – the train takes a shade over 1h30 end-to-end.
The X93 bus takes under 1h10 for the same journey, and runs every hour using decent spec double-deckers. Sure, the train is a very scenic ride, but the bus is just as enjoyable, especially upstairs!

And even if you were to reinstate the passing loops to run a more frequent service along the Esk Valley, it's hard to see how you could cut 20 minutes off the journey time to bring it down in line with the bus, at least not without a lot of expensive engineering. From Whitby to Grosmont, the linespeed is about 30mph, and then from Grosmont to Middlesbrough it's generally 40–45mph. Not to mention that you've got to factor in 16 intermediate station stops.

The line definitely has a value, particularly for people using the intermediate stations, but it's hard to see serious investment in the line as anything other than throwing good money after bad, when a better outcome for passengers could be achieved by improving the frequency and connectivity of the bus (eg bus stops on Wilson Street near the station so people connecting from a train don't have to walk all the way to the bus station).

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with that is the question of "why" ... because I'm struggling to understand why people would get the train to travel between Middlesbrough and Whitby unless they were taking a bike with them, or at a push making a connecting train journey at Middlesbrough.

Even if you ignore the dismal frequency – the train takes a shade over 1h30 end-to-end.
The X93 bus takes under 1h10 for the same journey, and runs every hour using decent spec double-deckers. Sure, the train is a very scenic ride, but the bus is just as enjoyable, especially upstairs!

And even if you were to reinstate the passing loops to run a more frequent service along the Esk Valley, it's hard to see how you could cut 20 minutes off the journey time to bring it down in line with the bus, at least not without a lot of expensive engineering. From Whitby to Grosmont, the linespeed is about 30mph, and then from Grosmont to Middlesbrough it's generally 40–45mph. Not to mention that you've got to factor in 16 intermediate station stops.

The line definitely has a value, particularly for people using the intermediate stations, but it's hard to see serious investment in the line as anything other than throwing good money after bad, when a better outcome for passengers could be achieved by improving the frequency and connectivity of the bus (eg bus stops on Wilson Street near the station so people connecting from a train don't have to walk all the way to the bus station).

The phrase "throwing good money after bad" suggests that you don't believe that the line has a value.

 

[geordieblue]

The phrase "throwing good money after bad" suggests that you don't believe that the line has a value.

You have done nothing to prove the line’s value though … particularly for the purpose you have brought up i.e. connecting Whitby with West Yorks.

 

[yorksrob]

You have done nothing to prove the line’s value though … particularly for the purpose you have brought up i.e. connecting Whitby with West Yorks.

Well, the passengers prove the line's value.

 

[geordieblue]

Well, the passengers prove the line's value.

The whole point is that there aren’t many passengers. Therefore the line in its current form is not very valuable - particularly for West Yorkshire passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

The whole point is that there aren’t many passengers. Therefore the line in its current form is not very valuable - particularly for West Yorkshire passengers.

There are plenty of passengers, mainly towards Teeside, but also South.

That's why it deserves a decent 21st century train service, not some thirty year old throwback.

 

[geordieblue]

There are plenty of passengers, mainly towards Teeside, but also South.

That's why it deserves a decent 21st century train service, not some thirty year old throwback.

How many is 'plenty'? Where is 'South'? You continue to move the goalposts to suit your own argument. What value does the train provide for passengers from West Yorkshire that a faster, cheaper bus does not?

 

[yorksrob]

How many is 'plenty'? Where is 'South'? You continue to move the goalposts to suit your own argument. What value does the train provide for passengers from West Yorkshire that a faster, cheaper bus does not?

How many is not enough ?

In the context of my observation "south" has always been those people who got off at Darlington and those who continued on the minibus.

You want to demonstrate the benefits of long distance bus travel. Why not do so, instead of denigrating the Whitby line that lots of us use

 

[stevieinselby]

The phrase "throwing good money after bad" suggests that you don't believe that the line has a value.

Yes, the line has a value, although that value is somewhat limited. Primarily its value is for the villages it serves along the way, but they are not going to generate enough traffic to justify a significantly improved service.
And unless you spend an unfeasibly large amount of money on it, the train can't improve to the point where it's a better option for end-to-end passengers than the bus.
Given the shortage of resources we have – not just money, but engineers and equipment, which can't just be magicked up out of thin air – you could get far more bang for your buck investing those resources elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, the line has a value, although that value is somewhat limited. Primarily its value is for the villages it serves along the way, but they are not going to generate enough traffic to justify a significantly improved service.
And unless you spend an unfeasibly large amount of money on it, the train can't improve to the point where it's a better option for end-to-end passengers than the bus.
Given the shortage of resources we have – not just money, but engineers and equipment, which can't just be magicked up out of thin air – you could get far more bang for your buck investing those resources elsewhere.

This post immediately demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the route.

It may have been spared the axe for its intermediate stations, but there are plenty of end to end passengrs.

 

[geordieblue]

This post immediately demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the route.

It may have been spared the axe for its intermediate stations, but there are plenty of end to end passengrs.

How many is plenty!
I seem to remember someone did a numbers analysis of the end to end passengers but I’ll have a go here. Last year Whitby recorded 120,000 entries and exits, with 12 arrivals and departures per day (admittedly slightly fewer on Sundays). Which works out at around, what, 30 passengers per train? (120,000/12/365).
And how many of these are coming from ‘the South’? Because it’s never more than 30 per train. It is likely not more than 10 per train. In fact it is probably less than 1 per train.
I don’t want to scrap the Whitby line but you cannot throw around the word ‘plenty’ without engaging with numbers and probabilities.

 

[yorksrob]

How many is plenty!
I seem to remember someone did a numbers analysis of the end to end passengers but I’ll have a go here. Last year Whitby recorded 120,000 entries and exits, with 12 arrivals and departures per day (admittedly slightly fewer on Sundays). Which works out at around, what, 30 passengers per train? (120,000/12/365).
And how many of these are coming from ‘the South’? Because it’s never more than 30 per train. It is likely not more than 10 per train. In fact it is probably less than 1 per train.
I don’t want to scrap the Whitby line but you cannot throw around the word ‘plenty’ without engaging with numbers and probabilities.

It has plenty of passengers now with a dreadful timetable.

Think how many it could have with a proper train service !

 

[geordieblue]

It has plenty of passengers now with a dreadful timetable.

Think how many it could have with a proper train service !

30 isn't plenty mate.

 

[yorksrob]

30 isn't plenty mate.

It is, given the appalling connection opportunities

Chum

 

[geordieblue]

It is, given the appalling connection opportunities

Chum

but nobody's connecting, are they?

 

[yorksrob]

but nobody's connecting, are they?

I'm connecting ?

Where are you getting your data that no one else is ?

 

[geordieblue]

I'm connecting ?

Where are you getting your data that no one else is ?

One passenger... once a month?

 

[yorksrob]

One passenger... once a month?

I'd suggest a day trip to Middlesborough.


You'll see how important the Whitby liñe is.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Of those 120,000 passengers per year using Whitby station, does it clarify how many are brought to the town by Northern, and how many are arriving on the NYMR services? I’ll wager that the latter is by far the more important contributor to the local tourist economy.

 

[73128]

Printed timetables. Just picked today at Reading – a paper timetable issue by XC and showing the Scotland, north east and Manchester to south west and south coast services. Light blue cover with darker blue map of country with white route lines decorated by various creatures and locals. Internal format broadly as pre-covid.

I wonder if there is a similar Cardiff to Nottingham and Stansted airport services timetable. Has anyone seen this or other operators’ printed timetables for the summer period?

 

[geordieblue]

I'd suggest a day trip to Middlesborough.


You'll see how important the Whitby liñe is.

I’m not saying it’s not important! Just that it’s not important for travel between West Yorkshire and Whitby, in its current form at least.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not saying it’s not important! Just that it’s not important for travel between West Yorkshire and Whitby, in its current form at least.

Well, the railway is a network !

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Well, the railway is a network !

To be fair, if the rail industry had cared about the Whitby - West Yorks market then the Grosmont to Malton section would not have been closed.

 

[geordieblue]

Well, the railway is a network !

A network with limitations upon what it can reasonably provide.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with that is the question of "why" ... because I'm struggling to understand why people would get the train to travel between Middlesbrough and Whitby unless they were taking a bike with them, or at a push making a connecting train journey at Middlesbrough.

Even if you ignore the dismal frequency – the train takes a shade over 1h30 end-to-end.
The X93 bus takes under 1h10 for the same journey, and runs every hour using decent spec double-deckers. Sure, the train is a very scenic ride, but the bus is just as enjoyable, especially upstairs!

And even if you were to reinstate the passing loops to run a more frequent service along the Esk Valley, it's hard to see how you could cut 20 minutes off the journey time to bring it down in line with the bus, at least not without a lot of expensive engineering. From Whitby to Grosmont, the linespeed is about 30mph, and then from Grosmont to Middlesbrough it's generally 40–45mph. Not to mention that you've got to factor in 16 intermediate station stops.

The line definitely has a value, particularly for people using the intermediate stations, but it's hard to see serious investment in the line as anything other than throwing good money after bad, when a better outcome for passengers could be achieved by improving the frequency and connectivity of the bus (eg bus stops on Wilson Street near the station so people connecting from a train don't have to walk all the way to the bus station).

You can struggle to understand all you like, but they do.

People do so of their own free will.

 

[bspahh]

Printed timetables. Just picked today at Reading – a paper timetable issue by XC and showing the Scotland, north east and Manchester to south west and south coast services. Light blue cover with darker blue map of country with white route lines decorated by various creatures and locals. Internal format broadly as pre-covid.

I wonder if there is a similar Cardiff to Nottingham and Stansted airport services timetable. Has anyone seen this or other operators’ printed timetables for the summer period?

There is. I got one from Ely station

 

[richardderby]

Whitby services have a dreadful timetable. the connections at Middlesborough, generally entail a wait of up to an hour for the TPE service to York and the south, so probably a 3 hour plus journey to York. the afternoon timetable of 1159 and then 1557 is really poor and not much use unless you are travelling locally or up the coast towards Newcastle.
i ended up traveling by bus to Saltburn and using the direct TPE service from there on my way back to York. Also in past experience, the 840 bus gets snarled in traffic between Malton and York, and struggles to get to York as per the timetable so not very reliable either!

 

[nw1]

There are plenty of passengers, mainly towards Teeside, but also South.

That's why it deserves a decent 21st century train service, not some thirty year old throwback.

While agreeing with your general point that the Whitby line does need a better service from Middlesbrough at least, I'd argue that things were probably better (not necessarily to Whitby, though) 30 years ago compared to the underfunded post-Covid mess we have now!

And of course, 40-odd years ago, the Whitby line did have a better service (as discussed in the thread in the nostalgia section) so if a "1982 throwback" timetable was brought in, it would be a distinct improvement!

 

[yorksrob]

While agreeing with your general point that the Whitby line does need a better service from Middlesbrough at least, I'd argue that things were probably better (not necessarily to Whitby, though) 30 years ago compared to the underfunded post-Covid mess we have now!

And of course, 40-odd years ago, the Whitby line did have a better service (as discussed in the thread in the nostalgia section) so if a "1982 throwback" timetable was brought in, it would be a distinct improvement!

Indeed, I mean the better part of the 21st century, rather than this decade, which seems to be particularly rubbish.

Agree about the old "two trains in steam" Whitby timetable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2023 ==

Whitby services have a dreadful timetable. the connections at Middlesborough, generally entail a wait of up to an hour for the TPE service to York and the south, so probably a 3 hour plus journey to York. the afternoon timetable of 1159 and then 1557 is really poor and not much use unless you are travelling locally or up the coast towards Newcastle.
i ended up traveling by bus to Saltburn and using the direct TPE service from there on my way back to York. Also in past experience, the 840 bus gets snarled in traffic between Malton and York, and struggles to get to York as per the timetable so not very reliable either!

Indeed. That may help to explain why so many travellers still prefer the train.