RTC

[MiNi]

THere is a Waterloo-Exeter-Waterloo charter this Saturday. Steam hauled,would a diesel be needed on the rear for assistance or any other reason. Sometimes they drag a diesel around all day and something dont. What (if any) is the ruling??.

 

[Trainguy34]

Realtime Trains | 1Z20 0714 London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids | 20/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z20 0714 departure from London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids on 20/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1Z22 1630 Exeter St Davids to London Waterloo | 20/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z22 1630 departure from Exeter St Davids to London Waterloo on 20/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

There is a light engine movement from Waterloo to Acton Lane which leaves a few minutes after the tour https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U64141/2023-05-20/detailed.

Guess that could mean it is unassisted. However, that would then mean that the four minute movement from Exeter Riverside New Yard will need to be propelled https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66438/2023-05-20/detailed

 

[zwk500]

@JonathanH got there just before - Light engine move means Tour planned to go unassisted. It's still possible the diesel will remain attached on the day for whatever reason.

In terms of a general pattern - there really isn't one. Sometimes the promoter will ask for no diesel, sometimes the TOC will want one to mitigate failure, or it might be left attached to avoid the costs of a separate move to and from the terminal.

 

[railfan99]

Light engine move means Tour planned to go unassisted. It's still possible the diesel will remain attached on the day for whatever reason.

In terms of a general pattern - there really isn't one. Sometimes the promoter will ask for no diesel, sometimes the TOC will want one to mitigate failure, or it might be left attached to avoid the costs of a separate move to and from the terminal.

Why can't your tour operators announce the situation in advance? Are they scared of losing bookings if they state 'diesel assisted'?

I am booked on an RTC tour later this year but have no idea whether (or hopefully not) there'll be a diesel on the rear.

The fares are high, so notwithstanding that to run the diesel as a pilot prior to, or following, the tour train costs extra, why won't the operators arrange it like this if Network Rail or TOCs permit(s) the tour train to be steam only?

 

[zwk500]

Why can't your tour operators announce the situation in advance? Are they scared of losing bookings if they state 'diesel assisted'?

They may simply not know.

I am booked on an RTC tour later this year but have no idea whether (or hopefully not) there'll be a diesel on the rear.

You can get a fairly decent idea whether a diesel will be definitely on the back if there's a reversal en-route. And circulars tend to not have the diesel where possible - Promoters do recognise that people want unassisted steam if they're coming to ride behind a steam train. However sometimes short-notice factors do get in the way.

The fares are high, so notwithstanding that to run the diesel as a pilot prior to, or following, the tour train costs extra, why won't the operators arrange it like this if Network Rail or TOCs permit(s) the tour train to be steam only?

There are a number of factors behind why diesels do and don't get left on the back. And it's about balancing the risk of the train getting stuck if it breaks down against the enjoyment of a steam engine doing what it does best. Charging slightly more, and then having a sit-down of several hours a hundred miles from home is not a good experience for anybody on board.

 

[SargeNpton]

Is it not also the case that the purpose of the diesel at the back is sometimes to act as a generator for the passenger coaches electrics?

 

[zwk500]

Is it not also the case that the purpose of the diesel at the back is sometimes to act as a generator for the passenger coaches electrics?

Yes, although that's less of a problem in summer when the heating and lighting aren't in as high demand.

 

[bleeder4]

Why can't your tour operators announce the situation in advance? Are they scared of losing bookings if they state 'diesel assisted'?

Some do. For example, Vintage Trains state on their website whether a particular tour is planned to have a diesel along or not. At present they're making a lot of noise about the fact their double-headed Castles up the Lickey on 10th June won't have a diesel along.

For RTC, they have a few regular itinerary trips that generally run without a diesel. For example, the Cumbrian Mountain Express and the Cotswold Explorer. A steam-hauled British Pullman also generally runs without a diesel.

However if it's a Saphos trip, then you can safely assume there will be a diesel on the back.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

THere is a Waterloo-Exeter-Waterloo charter this Saturday

Are those timings shown, ie: Down Windsor to Queens Road, then across the ladder to Down Main Fast, a 'standard' point to point (start to pass) Waterloo to Clapham Junction, for an unaided steam loco in these days? Just strikes me as a little optimistic (9 mins) given the climb out of Waterloo, the necessary approach control on the DW through Queens Road station, the ladder itself, and a regime that (I am sure) says in todays world the driver must not thrash the nuts off a 'heritage' loco. Just curious!

 

[zwk500]

Are those timings shown, ie: Down Windsor to Queens Road, then across the ladder to Down Main Fast, a 'standard' point to point (start to pass) Waterloo to Clapham Junction, for an unaided steam loco in these days? Just strikes me as a little optimistic (9 mins) given the climb out of Waterloo, the necessary approach control on the DW through Queens Road station, the ladder itself, and a regime that (I am sure) says in todays world the driver must not thrash the nuts off a 'heritage' loco. Just curious!

Standard 60TR-40 Timing Load, The train won't be hauling anything like 715t so even though it's not as beefy as a diesel it'll comfortably meet 60-TR40 timings (especially if it's a 75mph authorised loco). A Class 450 is given 6 minutes to do the run non-stop after Waterloo. AFAIK there's no prohibition against Drivers using full regulator so long as they are driving according to the conditions, restrictions, and policy of their TOC. The linespeed round there is 60mph with 20mph crossovers, the time loss isn't actually that bad.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

A Class 450 is given 6 minutes

Being pedantic, that's for a run directly down the MF from the off.....! We shall see, might even get out to see it somewhere, as not often we get Jubilee's out of Waterloo.

 

[Deepgreen]

Standard 60TR-40 Timing Load, The train won't be hauling anything like 715t so even though it's not as beefy as a diesel it'll comfortably meet 60-TR40 timings (especially if it's a 75mph authorised loco). A Class 450 is given 6 minutes to do the run non-stop after Waterloo. AFAIK there's no prohibition against Drivers using full regulator so long as they are driving according to the conditions, restrictions, and policy of their TOC. The linespeed round there is 60mph with 20mph crossovers, the time loss isn't actually that bad.

The load will be 10 coaches, and no diesel is planned. A Jubilee is classed as 6P, and should make easy work of the train in what are set to be dry and sunny conditions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==

Are those timings shown, ie: Down Windsor to Queens Road, then across the ladder to Down Main Fast, a 'standard' point to point (start to pass) Waterloo to Clapham Junction, for an unaided steam loco in these days? Just strikes me as a little optimistic (9 mins) given the climb out of Waterloo, the necessary approach control on the DW through Queens Road station, the ladder itself, and a regime that (I am sure) says in todays world the driver must not thrash the nuts off a 'heritage' loco. Just curious!

The 'climb' out of Waterloo is very minor and brief - it's not like Victoria.

 

[zwk500]

The load will be 10 coaches, and no diesel is planned. A Jubilee is classed as 6P, and should make easy work of the train in what are set to be dry and sunny conditions.

Oh a Jubilee will easily keep 60-TR40 no problems at all.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The 'climb' out of Waterloo is very minor and brief - it's not like Victoria

Absolutely, a short bout of (I think?) 1 in 141 up over Westminster Bridge Road, but must have had in mind WC/BB's and worst case scenario (heavy rain) etc...

Oh a Jubilee will easily keep 60-TR40 no problems at all.

Lunch today was a slice of humble pie...

 

[zwk500]

Lunch today was a slice of humble pie...

Oh dear, did it go pop? Perhaps is should have said 'can' rather than 'will' and avoided cursing the run....

Have had a check and it appears a slightly late start and an Up Southampton conspired against it, so I'd say that's adverse signals (and possibly an optimistic planner on the margin) rather than the Loco not meeting times - I noticed it got back to RT easily enough.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

No, not at all...ran fine as far as i know... it was me eating the humble pie! It was about 2 late, and may have been slightly checked in the Queens Road area by 1A14 on the up, but otherwise Waterloo to Clapham (pass) was about 9.75 mins, as far as can be judged from RTT/OTT etc.

 

[zwk500]

No, not at all...ran fine as far as i know... it was me eating the humble pie! It was about 2 late, and may have been slightly checked in the Queens Road area by 1A14 on the up, but otherwise Waterloo to Clapham (pass) was about 9.75 mins, as far as can be judged from RTT/OTT etc.

Yes, and then later the recovery of 15 minutes at Chard to achieve a RT arrival into Exeter rather proving my point!