How could the Brigg Line service be improved; could it go to another operator?

[mocko]

But the hourly bus from Scunthorpe might, for most journeys.

I'm getting sick and tired of bus lovers making these daft suggestions. Have you worked out the price (e.g. to Retford / London / Gainsborough / Nottingham)? Or how long it'll take? Can I take my bike on the bus? I think the answer to all of these is probably "no".

Trying to present unviable bus-based options is to play into the hands of management who want to close the line and a massive disservice to rail users. We want trains, not some crummy bus.

I'm used to walking onto the platform at Brigg and catching a train straight to Gainsborough/Retford/Sheffield. Taking a bus to Scunthorpe, then several trains, at much greater cost, to go a long way around isn't something any normal passenger is going to consider a viable alternative.

 

[daodao]

Trying to present unviable bus-based options is to play into the hands of management who want to close the line and a massive disservice to rail users. We want trains, not some crummy bus.

Unfortunately, not many people are served by the former GC main line from Sheffield to Grimsby/Cleethorpes who don't have alternative options. It is only the few people living in the small settlements of Brigg and Kirton Lindsey, between Gainsborough and Barnetby, who would be particularly affected, so closure cannot be described as "a massive disservice to rail users". Given that the line is now little used by freight, the case for retaining it is very poor.

 

[30907]

I'm getting sick and tired of bus lovers making these daft suggestions. Have you worked out the price (e.g. to Retford / London / Gainsborough / Nottingham)? Or how long it'll take? Can I take my bike on the bus? I think the answer to all of these is probably "no".

I am not a bus lover, I am a public transport lover, and that is a difference.

No, I haven't looked at fares, but yes, I was broadly aware of the time implications.

To the major destination of Sheffield, en route to Nottingham, via Scunthorpe takes less time than I had imagined, 25min longer (Googlemaps). However the service runs hourly (in theory, I realise) on 6 days a week rather than 3 times a week (or in future 6 times), so in terms of generalised journey time it wins hands down.
London is much faster via Retford, with one train a week in 2 1/2h compared with several daily in typically 4h via Scunthorpe (in this case a bigger difference than I would have estimated).
And the traveller (I use the singular) who wants to go to (or from) Gainsborough or Retford (or Worksop for that matter) loses out.

 

[mocko]

Unfortunately, not many people are served by the former GC main line from Sheffield to Grimsby/Cleethorpes who don't have alternative options. It is only the few people living in the small settlements of Brigg and Kirton Lindsey, between Gainsborough and Barnetby, who would be particularly affected, so closure cannot be described as "a massive disservice to rail users". Given that the line is now little used by freight, the case for retaining it is very poor.

As one of the users of the rail line, it absolutely is doing me a massive disservice to suggest I switch from using the nice convenient train to something that's slower, likely to cost more, doesn't have fares (or delay repay) joined-up with the rest of the rail system and can't be used to take my bike on. The same goes for family and friends who use it.

When I complained to Northern about its withdrawal of the service (which it still seems to be trying to hush up - when I checked a week ago there still weren't any posters at Brigg) it lied to me that this bus service that will only ever run for six days, and does not go to Brigg, would be an alternative to its trains from Brigg. After the line's operator did that it's hard to be well-disposed to buses.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

I am not a bus lover, I am a public transport lover, and that is a difference.

No, I haven't looked at fares, but yes, I was broadly aware of the time implications.

There are a few reasons why to me, a bus would be a highly undesirable way to travel to/from Brigg.

1. Many of my journeys are with a bicycle, which they won't take on the bus. Same goes for other passengers, the line is popular with cyclists.
2. To get a reasonable fare to London from, say Scunthorpe, I'd need to book an Advance ticket. If the bus to Scunthorpe doesn't turn up (I was warned that the Stagecoach service was incredibly unreliable the last time I thought about using it), or runs late, I won't be eligible to get the next train and claim delay repay - instead I'll be forced to pay hundreds of pounds for a walk-up fare down to London from Doncaster.
3. Even if I take the bus to Scunthorpe, and it gets there in good time for the train, fares from Scunthorpe down to London are at present wildly expensive. To pick a date at random (though I tried others) let's say June 5th. According to LNER there is precisely one train two trains on that day that have Advance tickets at all. Heaven knows why, you'll have to ask TransPennine. Unless I want to catch that exact 09:48 or 20:48 service I will have to pay £113 (!) for a Super Off-Peak Single plus the cost of the bus. Meanwhile from Brigg, assuming you knew to tell the booking engine "not via Doncaster", we were recently seeing fares for ~£25. So even if I do use one of the few trains TPE have Advances for, after the Stagecoach fare I'll be paying nigh-on twice what I did before.
4. Let's say I want to do some shopping in Retford. I haven't got my bike so a bus then train from Scunthorpe might conceivably work. What are my options? Best Google Maps can offer me is three hours each way compared to the ~45 minutes the train took. And the price? £27 for an Anytime return vs the £11 return I'd currently buy from Brigg.

The feeling I get about the bus travel (either in part or in whole) that's being suggested is that it's coming from people who won't actually have to use them, won't have to bear the sky-high extra costs / slower journeys and who won't have to suffer the consequences when things inevitably go wrong. In comparison with the train service we have today - a mininal but kind-of-useful 6tpd on a day when we want to travel, that's suitable for bicycles, with a company that's legally obligated to provide refunds and get us home if something goes wrong, they're terrible.

And the traveller (I use the singular) who wants to go to (or from) Gainsborough or Retford (or Worksop for that matter) loses out.

That's not a fair insinuation to make. In the months since Northern reinstated the line's service (after not running anything for a year), usage has picked up dramatically. It's unfortunate that Northern has done such a number on it: if it wasn't for their year-without-trains followed by widespread cancellations, there would be some fairly good usage figures to point at. Cynic that I am I think it's telling that they've chosen to withdraw the Saturday service before any ridership figures can be collected - a good few people have been using these trains, not just me.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Having looked at this in some detail, the main issues with the Brigg line that I can see are as follows:-

• The very small catchment area, with the only 'unique' places served being Brigg and Kirton Lindsey
• There are few available paths beyond Barnetby (towards Cleethorpes) and into Sheffield (also see below)
• A Worksop - Brigg - Barnetby shuttle works on paper but in practice would be almost impossible to timetable efficiently due to the route taking 57 minutes, not leaving sufficient turn-around time (assuming the aim is a clockface timing, as the TPR requires 10 mins at Worksop minimum, 5 at Barnetby)
• Such a shuttle could not terminate at Retford as westbound trains are barred from doing so (see the Timetable Planning Rules, LN736 for detail), which is a shame as the timings would be quite convenient!
• Having a non-clockface shuttle would be inconvenient due to the (largely) clockface nature of current services through Worksop towards Sheffield, Leeds and Lincoln
• There are virtually no paths at suitable times into Sheffield, so meeting connections at Worksop would be almost essential for the service to even have a chance of meeting its costs

That said, however, there is a solution - though it's not tidy. (The following is based around the May 2023 WTT.)

1. 0511 ECS d. from SHF P3, a. BTB P1 at 0600
2. 0605 d. BTB, calling at BGG (0612), KTL (0623), GNB (0631), RET (0648), WRK a. 0700
3. 0702 ECS P1 to P2 via Worksop West Jct., clearing the UP at 0705 and waiting outside P2 until 0709 (due to conflicting movements)
4. 0713 d. WRK, a. BTB P1 0810. 6K21, timed through P1 at 0831, can use P2 without conflict
5. 0848 d. BTB, a. WRK 0943
6. Etc., with small modifications throughout the day

This is not perfect. It is not clockface, has long layovers at Barnetby, and forces passengers to make sometimes lengthy connections at Retford/Worksop or Barnetby for onward destinations. It does, however, allow a roughly three-hourly service using a single unit. I don't know whether Northern crews are able to take official breaks at Worksop or Barnetby but I would presume not, so there is the additional issue of crew changes. This could be dealt with by taxiing the replacement crew to Worksop (not ideal!), sending them PASS if they're able to wait at Worksop or Retford without having an official break (again I'm not sure, but this can be done at BDQ, for example), or by potentially threading the occasional BTB-WRK service through to SHF. I haven't looked into the viability of this latter option but it is likely the most realistic. Given the timings, one crew could make two round trips:

1. SHF to BTB
2. BTB to WRK
3. WRK to BTB
4. BTB to SHF

Though this would mess with the comparatively tight timings necessary to achieve a clockface-esque timetable.

In short: There is not easy way of formulating a semi-regular timetable for the Brigg line without running into problems somewhere, such is the nature of the route and staffing requirements. A mediocre timetable is doable, however, with minimal (though admittedly non-zero!) unit usage. And a mediocre timetable is better than no service at all - though given it would be almost impossible to make such a service cover its own costs, getting the DfT to agree to such an introduction is, in the current financial climate, almost impossible.

 

[mocko]

Having looked at this in some detail,

Goodness, you have!

I've a lot of respect for this - it's a plan based on the practicalities of working the line and the resources that are likely to be available. Even as a strident supporter I think it's important to be realistic about the money / service level that's justified. Brigg and Kirton aren't teeming metropolises and they're never going to fill an hourly nine-car Azuma. A basic operation is all that's needed. Heretical as it sounds, I might even say that a stable weekend-only service could be better for the needs of Brigg & Kirton than a weekday one if we had to choose.

If the following could be satisfied:

1. Reliability. Only the most determined passengers are going to plan journeys when they know there's a ~30% chance their train will be canceled with a wait on a barren platform of 3+ hours for the next one. Particularly when there are no announcements at stations, no information screens and the operator (in contravention of the Passenger Rights & Obligations legislation) tells stranded passengers they have to source replacement taxis themselves.
2. Sale of Advance tickets not broken. See below. (to be clear I'm talking about long-distance journeys, I don't expect a cheap Advance to Barnetby and back)
3. Promotion, maybe with the odd special offer to coax locals onto them. This could even be dressed up as something nice, a relaunch of the service.

...then I think a basic operation could be a worthwhile endeavour. It's never going to make a fortune but the operator might well break even. If they do that for a year or two and usage doesn't pick up - well, then they gave it a fair chance and closure - via the correct legal process, not the back door - will be easier to justify.

One minor suggestion I might make is that given the nature of the line's usage, a better service would be justified in summer than in winter. I don't know what that would look like - perhaps an extra train late on Saturday evening for people who've gone out to Cleethorpes? Cleggy has some good pubs these days so if properly promoted I could see it being a hit. Other rural routes seem to have found success doing similar.

A mediocre timetable is doable

Here in Brigg we're used to mediocre timetables Send us a train, any train, even a clapped-out old Pacer. So long as it turns up at vaguely the advertised time and there's a way to make a return journey we'll be happy. Just as you say, a mediocre service is better than none. Connections from the soon-to-be-ex Saturday service were seldom great[1] so expectations from passengers are not high.


Sadly there's an elephant in the room - the operator itself. Northern really doesn't like the Brigg line. The management seem to see it as an inconvenience, with usage by the public not at all to be encouraged. When Northern stonewalled my complaint a couple of months ago I put in a few FOI requests to see if I could get the true story and the results have been fascinating.

Northern has thus far refused to release anything (citing commercial sensitivity, which I hardly think would cover every single document and email it possesses) but the DfT released this document - seemingly a presentation made to it in June 2022 by RNP citing Northern's desires for the route. The proposal within it (totally the opposite to what Northern told me this March about it having no plans to change the route!) was "Remove Includes closure of 3 stations – Brigg, Kirton Lindsay [sic] and Gainsborough Central". Going by the document the transport minister was briefed (or intended to be briefed?) ahout "Complete closure of 4 stations at Brigg, Gainsborough Central..."

As far as I can tell, the only reason Northern didn't proceed with total closure at the time was that the Rail North Partnership (who are a combination of the DfT & Transport for North) [2] talked them out of it. These are not the actions of a TOC that wishes to build up a viable service. No wonder Northern wouldn't answer my questions when I complained.



[1] An unhelpful side-effect of this is most journey planners haven't been showing Advance fares to Brigg/Kirton even though they do exist. I think they get confused by the infrequent service on the line and instead try to route passengers on a quicker journey for which only a full Single is available, costing 3-4x more. That isn't anyone's fault in particular, more a limitation of the booking engines TOCs use, but it does contravene the NRCoT requirement to offer the best value ticket and ought to be fixed to encourage use of the line. No-one's going to go to Brigg when it costs £95 and you could go to Barnetby for £30!

[2] See TfN's FOI response here. It's a real credit to them - they have a positive attitude and want to give the line a chance. I don't think they're the problem - more a disinterested operator that has to be pushed into running any kind of service whatsoever.

 

[Brubulus]

Goodness, you have!

I've a lot of respect for this - it's a plan based on the practicalities of working the line and the resources that are likely to be available. Even as a strident supporter I think it's important to be realistic about the money / service level that's justified. Brigg and Kirton aren't teeming metropolises and they're never going to fill an hourly nine-car Azuma. A basic operation is all that's needed. Heretical as it sounds, I might even say that a stable weekend-only service could be better for the needs of Brigg & Kirton than a weekday one if we had to choose.

If the following could be satisfied:

1. Reliability. Only the most determined passengers are going to plan journeys when they know there's a ~30% chance their train will be canceled with a wait on a barren platform of 3+ hours for the next one. Particularly when there are no announcements at stations, no information screens and the operator (in contravention of the Passenger Rights & Obligations legislation) tells stranded passengers they have to source replacement taxis themselves.
2. Sale of Advance tickets not broken. See below. (to be clear I'm talking about long-distance journeys, I don't expect a cheap Advance to Barnetby and back)
3. Promotion, maybe with the odd special offer to coax locals onto them. This could even be dressed up as something nice, a relaunch of the service.

...then I think a basic operation could be a worthwhile endeavour. It's never going to make a fortune but the operator might well break even. If they do that for a year or two and usage doesn't pick up - well, then they gave it a fair chance and closure - via the correct legal process, not the back door - will be easier to justify.

One minor suggestion I might make is that given the nature of the line's usage, a better service would be justified in summer than in winter. I don't know what that would look like - perhaps an extra train late on Saturday evening for people who've gone out to Cleethorpes? Cleggy has some good pubs these days so if properly promoted I could see it being a hit. Other rural routes seem to have found success doing similar.

Would agree here entirely - the line doesn't seem like it could sustain a weekday service but a good weekend only service has a chance of being successful. 1tp2h definitely has a chance on Saturdays and Sundays with connections into Grimsby/Cleethorpes and Sheffield. Though ensuring that there is a train in the late evening as the Retford line is better for this than the rest of the area so evening services tend to be well-patronised.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm afraid this line well illustrates why the restoring your railways idea misses what needs restoring far more importantly.

Across multiple threads we encounter at least four fundamental problems, summed up as capacity at critical points.

1. On this route the biggest source of population and likely custom is Sheffield where extra tracks are needed between Midland station and Nunnery Junction to get better access for all routes from the east and north..

2.Old signalling may be inadequate to control more frequent trains through congested areas.

3. Platforms are too short for longer trains (e.g. 2 car 2C at Sheffield) or too long to take 2 shorter and independent trains without major reconstruction (e.g, most Sheffield Platforms)

4. On this route there's also single track with limited passing places. Elsewhere level crossovers need grade separation.

Without urgent attention to identify, plan and implement network improvements to the multiplicity of issues like these we won't be able to improve the frequency, length and number of present services, let alone add totally new ones.

If this line could run free of all these restrictions it could offer competitive journey times between Sheffield and Cleethorpes. Any substantial extra regular ticket sales revenue is hard to see at the Lincolnshire/South Humberside end due to the low population density. For a largely rural area Honsby's and Callconnect (dial a ride, on demand) bus services are far less costly for any subsidies, and run closer to far more people.

 

[IBLRG]

There will be an express bus ran by Stagecoach to cover for Saturdays.

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

An official objection has gone into this service because incredibly the funding has been raised by Community " Rail "

People are absolutely furious that they are subtitising and replacement bus service that will give people a direct service between Gainsborough and Cleethorpes on a Saturday only to replace the missing rail service.

Iits got quite a lot of the railway media scratching their heads why community rail have gone down this avenue.

 

[30907]

An official objection has gone into this service because incredibly the funding has been raised by Community " Rail "

People are absolutely furious that they are subtitising and replacement bus service that will give people a direct service between Gainsborough and Cleethorpes on a Saturday only to replace the missing rail service.

Iits got quite a lot of the railway media scratching their heads why community rail have gone down this avenue.

There is precedent for running a RRB where it is possible but not efficient/economical to run a train - Severn Beach had one most of the day for several years - but it ought to be funded by the TOC not out of the CRP pot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably CRP have funded it because it at least keeps passengers on public transport in the hope of the train being reinstated later?

 

[IBLRG]

Presumably CRP have funded it because it at least keeps passengers on public transport in the hope of the train being reinstated later?

The problem you have here is the Department for Transport could turn round and say the bus services so popular there is no need to run the Saturday train service anymore that is the fear from many people.

As we've touched on this is not gone down very well at all this replacement bus service.

 

[RT4038]

The problem you have here is the Department for Transport could turn round and say the bus services so popular there is no need to run the Saturday train service anymore that is the fear from many people.

As we've touched on this is not gone down very well at all this replacement bus service.

If the bus services are indeed so popular, what would be the need to run the Saturday train service (the trains likely costing more than the bus to operate) ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

The question would have to be 'why' - why is the bus so popular, and would the railway be able to satisfy that reason?

 

[tbtc]

Maybe I’m being dumb here but… This is a link to a once-a-week bus from Market Rasen to Cleethorpes?

It doesn’t serve Gainsborough, Brigg or Grimsby, so how odd it a “replacement” or threat to any trains on the Brigg line?

There’s a separate railway line from Lincoln - Market Rasen - Grimsby - Cleethorpes… if the argument was that this weekly bus were some kind of threat to that then I’d understand, but my understanding is that this X90 has nowt to do with the Brigg line?

(That said, finding the staff and trains needed for reinstating the hourly stopper from Gainsborough to Sheffield should be the first priority, allowing Lincoln trains to be sped up, before anyone worries about trains to Brigg)

 

[Bartsimho]

As an idea is most of the traffic purely from Sheffield towards Cleethorpes using this line or is it specifically from Sheffield to Brigg and Kirton or is it from Brigg and Kirton to Sheffield and is this for onward connections primarily or is it for Leisure (or Work although I expect it's not this).

 

[Iskra]

As an idea is most of the traffic purely from Sheffield towards Cleethorpes using this line or is it specifically from Sheffield to Brigg and Kirton or is it from Brigg and Kirton to Sheffield and is this for onward connections primarily or is it for Leisure (or Work although I expect it's not this).

It's mainly leisure: rail enthusiasts doing it for the novelty and day-trippers going on the lash in Cleethorpes when the sun shines.

Maybe I’m being dumb here but… This is a link to a once-a-week bus from Market Rasen to Cleethorpes?

It doesn’t serve Gainsborough, Brigg or Grimsby, so how odd it a “replacement” or threat to any trains on the Brigg line?

There’s a separate railway line from Lincoln - Market Rasen - Grimsby - Cleethorpes… if the argument was that this weekly bus were some kind of threat to that then I’d understand, but my understanding is that this X90 has nowt to do with the Brigg line?

(That said, finding the staff and trains needed for reinstating the hourly stopper from Gainsborough to Sheffield should be the first priority, allowing Lincoln trains to be sped up, before anyone worries about trains to Brigg)

I totally agree that the priority should be re-instating the useful and reasonably well-patronised service to Gainsborough Central to allow the Lincoln semi-fasts to be sped up. This benefits two lines, which have a decent enough population on them to sustain rail links.

While I'm sad about the demise of the Brigg Line from an enthusiast perspective- the reality is it's never going to be popular enough to justify a regular service and it's not too far to travel to reach the next nearest lines. If there isn't the freight traffic to justify the line, then I don't see the need for the line at all or providing an unusable service, it's just a waste of scant resources and an irritant to anyone who does use it. At least the situation would be clear if the service was fully withdrawn.

 

[Bartsimho]

It's mainly leisure: rail enthusiasts doing it for the novelty and day-trippers going on the lash in Cleethorpes when the sun shines.


I totally agree that the priority should be re-instating the useful and reasonably well-patronised service to Gainsborough Central to allow the Lincoln semi-fasts to be sped up. This benefits two lines, which have a decent enough population on them to sustain rail links.

While I'm sad about the demise of the Brigg Line from an enthusiast perspective- the reality is it's never going to be popular enough to justify a regular service and it's not too far to travel to reach the next nearest lines. If there isn't the freight traffic to justify the line, then I don't see the need for the line at all or providing an unusable service, it's just a waste of scant resources and an irritant to anyone who does use it. At least the situation would be clear if the service was fully withdrawn.

I guess my idea of Derby-Cleethorpes would not work then if it's all Sheffield traffic (although that would probably only work at the Southern end with the East Midlands Hub as well).

 

[30907]

Maybe I’m being dumb here but… This is a link to a once-a-week bus from Market Rasen to Cleethorpes?

No, the second link is to the Gainsborough-Market Rasen part of the route (shown separately to increase the ENCTS revenue?), which is presumably new and funded by the CRP.

It doesn’t serve Gainsborough, Brigg or Grimsby,

It doesn't serve Brigg, admittedly, but it presumably covers the main traffic offering with decent connections via Worksop.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It makes you wonder how people in both Brigg and in Kirton Lindsay go travelling on the six none-rail service days of Sunday to Friday.

 

[Killingworth]

It makes you wonder how people in both Brigg and in Kirton Lindsay go travelling on the six none-rail service days of Sunday to Friday.

Let's face it, for years there has been a poorer service than on some heritage lines. In reality isnt that what Network Rail and Northern are now running? A significant number of users seem to be rail enthusasts rather than local people for whom the railway is irrelevant.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I've been having a closer look at the May 2023 WTT and I believe, on reflection, that the following timetable (SSuX) is possible:

Sheffield​	0650	0949	1254	1554	1843
Worksop​	0712	1012	1316	1616	1905
Retford​	0722	1022	1326	1626	1915
Gainsborough Central​	0737	1037	1341	1641	1930
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	0749	1049	1353	1653	1942
Brigg​	0758	1058	1402	1702	1951
Barnetby​	0806	1106	1410	1710	1959

Barnetby​	0811	1111	1415	1715	2010
Brigg​	0818	1118	1422	1722	2017
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	0827	1127	1431	1731	2026
Gainsborough Central​	0839	1139	1443	1743	2038
Retford​	0854	1154	1458	1758	2053
Worksop​	0904	1204	1508	1808	2103
Sheffield​	0927	1226	1531	1836	2126

My reasoning:-

• Such times follow the stoppers to Lincoln by approximately 15 minutes, allowing for passengers from the stations between Sheffield and Worksop to change there for services to Barnetby via Brigg; these changes are in the region of five minutes and are same-platform
• The slight variation in departures from Sheffield is to account for the rather congested WTT
• A three-hourly service only requires a single unit, with relatively little downtime
• Terminating at Barnetby is pretty much unavoidable; it would have been ideal to run through to Cleethorpes but the single line section between there and Grimsby Town makes a frequent service untenable (and I have tried!)
• However, the arrival times at Barnetby are such that there are relatively short (between five and twenty minutes) transfers, across platform (assuming termination in P1), to EM or TP services to Cleethorpes
• Return services are less pleasingly timed but still provide, in the main, relatively convenient transfers at Barnetby from Cleethorpes services, and at Worksop for stopping services from Lincoln
• While there is an argument in favour of accelerating the Lincoln services and giving the stations between Sheffield and Worksop to the Brigg line services, which are comparatively slow anyway, I haven't yet worked out the cost/benefit of doing so or whether such would be possible

Whether such a service is worth running at all "is beyond the scope of this study"(!), as is the viability of a similar timetable at the weekend, but it at least shows that such is possible.

And, just for fun, approximate timings for if the Brigg line were taken over by a heritage railway association, running at a linespeed of 25 mph (and having calculated likely station dwell time at ~2 mins from personal experience of heritage railways):

	A	B	A	B	A
Gainsborough Central​	1000	1130	1300	1430	1600
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	1028	1158	1328	1458	1628
Brigg​	1046	1216	1346	1516	1646
Barnetby​	1058	1228	1358	1528	1658

Barnetby​	1140	1310	1435	1610	1745
Brigg​	1152	1322	1452	1622	1757
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	1210	1340	1510	1640	1815
Gainsborough Central​	1238	1408	1548	1708	1853

Such a timetable fits with the WTT at Barnetby, allows services to pass on the double-track section between Brigg and Kirton-in-Lindsey before it reduces to single track, and if combined with a bus run by the heritage railway between Gainsborough Central and Lea Road, would provide a far better service in my opinion than the line receives at present! The primary issue would, of course, be access to NR metals at Barnetby - but there is precedent, and paths are available, just about, to allow run rounds there.

I am of course completely ignoring where stock would be stored - but to anyone who thinks this is a ridiculous idea. . . Well, this is Speculative Discussion.

 

[zwk500]

@InkyScrolls that's a remarkable effort. The only (very minor!) quibble I have is whether the 5' turnround at Barnetby is possible given the cross-platform shunt required.

 

[Bartsimho]

@InkyScrolls that's a remarkable effort. The only (very minor!) quibble I have is whether the 5' turnround at Barnetby is possible given the cross-platform shunt required.

Looking at the layout at Barnetby wouldn't it be possible to terminate at Platform 1 and then make a double move back across at Wrawby Junction as there is track from the line towards Grimsby into Plat 1 and then a piece of track from the towards Grimsby to the Brigg Line although I might be reading this wrong: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/northlincs

Edit: I have read it wrong but I think it might work if it goes between signals 8841 to 8847 although that would have to be greened at the same time as 8841 to prevent the train being stopped on the junction although there does appear to be a berth there.

 

[30907]

It makes you wonder how people in both Brigg and in Kirton Lindsay go travelling on the six none-rail service days of Sunday to Friday.

As far back as 1982 the service was 3 eastbound and 4 westbound (the balance being the Manchester papers, which went via Lincoln by then) with the first departure from Brigg around 0830 and the last about 1830. The 3tpd service dates from the early 90s when Sheffield-Lincoln went hourly.

 

[zwk500]

Looking at the layout at Barnetby wouldn't it be possible to terminate at Platform 1 and then make a double move back across at Wrawby Junction as there is track from the line towards Grimsby into Plat 1 and then a piece of track from the towards Grimsby to the Brigg Line although I might be reading this wrong: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/northlincs

Edit: I have read it wrong but I think it might work if it goes between signals 8841 to 8847 although that would have to be greened at the same time as 8841 to prevent the train being stopped on the junction.

As the OTT page shows, none of the platform lines is bi-directionally signalled, and a guard or driver will not be able to see 8841 to despatch from the platform. You would need to terminate in the Down platforms, draw forward, change ends, and then set back from 8801 to the Up Platforms.
Passenger trains are not normally permitted to start from shunt signals as older rules meant the route didn't need to be fully indicated (or possible detected/locked).

 

[30907]

I've been having a closer look at the May 2023 WTT and I believe, on reflection, that the following timetable (SSuX) is possible:

Sheffield​	0650	0949	1254	1554	1843
Worksop​	0712	1012	1316	1616	1905
Retford​	0722	1022	1326	1626	1915
Gainsborough Central​	0737	1037	1341	1641	1930
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	0749	1049	1353	1653	1942
Brigg​	0758	1058	1402	1702	1951
Barnetby​	0806	1106	1410	1710	1959

Barnetby​	0811	1111	1415	1715	2010
Brigg​	0818	1118	1422	1722	2017
Kirton-in-Lindsey​	0827	1127	1431	1731	2026
Gainsborough Central​	0839	1139	1443	1743	2038
Retford​	0854	1154	1458	1758	2053
Worksop​	0904	1204	1508	1808	2103
Sheffield​	0927	1226	1531	1836	2126

Impressive, but might I suggest that the Gainsborough-Sheffield section would be more useful with an 0827 arrival and perhaps a 1654 or 1754 departure (nominal times). The latter would mean losing the last round trip - but I doubt that would be disastrous.

 

[InkyScrolls]

@InkyScrolls that's a remarkable effort. The only (very minor!) quibble I have is whether the 5' turnround at Barnetby is possible given the cross-platform shunt required.

Thank you. Five minutes is the amount required for reversals in the TPR for Barnetby.

As the OTT page shows, none of the platform lines is bi-directionally signalled, and a guard or driver will not be able to see 8841 to despatch from the platform. You would need to terminate in the Down platforms, draw forward, change ends, and then set back from 8801 to the Up Platforms.
Passenger trains are not normally permitted to start from shunt signals as older rules meant the route didn't need to be fully indicated (or possible detected/locked).

Hmm - I appear to have missed that! I thought that P1 was bi-di. I'll have another look and rework.

Impressive, but might I suggest that the Gainsborough-Sheffield section would be more useful with an 0827 arrival and perhaps a 1654 or 1754 departure (nominal times). The latter would mean losing the last round trip - but I doubt that would be disastrous.

I'll see if that's possible.

 

[zwk500]

Thank you. Five minutes is the amount required for reversals in the TPR for Barnetby.

Fair enough - I wonder whether that value has been tested in anger with the ROC, although a practiced signaller at a VDU can set the shunts very quickly.

Hmm - I appear to have missed that! I thought that P1 was bi-di. I'll have another look and rework.

From the OTT link, the only bidi road is the goods line. The Up and Down Slows and Fasts are the platform lines and don't have main aspect signals for bids running.
Apologies i don't know which way the numbers run, and I think in my earlier post may have got up and down inverted due to forgetting its one of the exceptions to 'Up to London'.
It's also possible the OTT diagram has omitted some signals, I don't have access to the diagrams to make sure.

 

[IBLRG]

So .......

After the first week of the new Monday to Friday one round trip Dr Beeching timetable, which was designed mainly to improve staff cover.

The train operator has managed to run 60% of the services.

The now withdrawn three trains on a Saturday only used to run between 66% and 100% of the services.