Goole swing bridge engineering - why no Selby diversion?

[CaptainHaddock]

Whilst in Sheffield last night I noticed a poster advising that, due to work on Goole Swing bridge, there will be no through trains between Sheffield and Hull from 3 June to 2 July. Even though it's only a couple of weeks away, there's nothing I can find on Northern's disruptions page and, as this is the main route between South Yorkshire and the East Coast resorts, I can imagine some very disappointed holidaymakers finding their journey time significantly extended and involving two trains and a bus.

My question therefore is, why have Northern decided to run trains only between Sheffield and Goole and between Hull and Scarborough with a bus linking the two? There's an ideal diversionary route via Selby which would negate the need for buses and all the disruption and confusion bus replacement services inevitably cause. One train a day (1H54 1900 SCA-SHF) runs on this route already so surely most Northern drivers must sign the route. Indeed TOPS is currently showing this train as running throughout the disruption!

 

[Adam0984]

Only Hull depot sign Selby to Doncaster now, Doncaster lost their route knowledge when the morning service ceased

 

[3RDGEN]

They can get away with it and it's easier than running via Selby so that's what happens, as you say it's two weeks away and only just made public so too late to change now. When this happened on Sundays I was told it was a pathing issue on the East Coast.

A full hourly service is difficult but they could have run a service in the hours when Hull Trains don't run to at least provide an hourly Hull - Doncaster train service.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Only Hull depot sign Selby to Doncaster now, Doncaster lost their route knowledge when the morning service ceased

Whilst I don't doubt your explanation it seems ridiculous that Northern don't train their Doncaster-based drivers on diversionary routes. What would happen if there were a short term disruption such as a derailment or points failure - would everything just be cancelled and Northern's passengers left to fend for themselves?

 

[The exile]

Whilst I don't doubt your explanation it seems ridiculous that Northern don't train their Doncaster-based drivers on diversionary routes. What would happen if there were a short term disruption such as a derailment or points failure - would everything just be cancelled and Northern's passengers left to fend for themselves?

Almost certainly - welcome to the Brave New World that people keep voting for.

 

[Adam0984]

Whilst I don't doubt your explanation it seems ridiculous that Northern don't train their Doncaster-based drivers on diversionary routes. What would happen if there were a short term disruption such as a derailment or points failure - would everything just be cancelled and Northern's passengers left to fend for themselves?

That's what would happen even before the Doncaster knowledge lapsed they didn't sign Selby to Gilberdyke so was pretty useless. To run a service via Selby to retain knowledge would either require additional services via Selby or divert the via Goole service via Selby leaving a hole in the timetable

 

[CaptainHaddock]

To run a service via Selby to retain knowledge would either require additional services via Selby or divert the via Goole service via Selby leaving a hole in the timetable

Yet they do so once a day in one direction but not the other!

 

[Neptune]

Yet they do so once a day in one direction but not the other!

There is one in either direction via Selby, 1H52 & 1H54.

 

[55018ballymoss]

Whilst I don't doubt your explanation it seems ridiculous that Northern don't train their Doncaster-based drivers on diversionary routes. What would happen if there were a short term disruption such as a derailment or points failure - would everything just be cancelled and Northern's passengers left to fend for themselves?

Yes. That is what happens far too frequently.

 

[Spartacus]

I guess one of the big issues is that with Northern, and others, struggling to cover their booked diagrams, taking crews off to learn diversionary routes would likely mean cancellations of passenger trains would be required. Northern do still have one Doncaster - Hull via Selby and another the other way.

I'm a bit surprised they aren't maybe running the 1Wxx/1Jxx services to Selby and connecting with TPE and Northern services there. It'd take far less in the way of traincrew resources and the paths, from by brief look, do appear to be there, in fact they seem to work amazingly well! Guess they're thinking that market can be taken up by existing services via Selby.

 

[Kite159]

The Hull Trains services (and also the token LNER to Hull) will be busier than normal with passengers wanting to avoid the game of replacement bus roulette.

As well as the remaining trains from Hull towards Brough.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Northern have finally got round to uploading their engineering timetable though only on a week by week basis.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/templates/N30/2023-06-03-to-2023-06-09-1684241735.pdf

So if you want to travel from Scarborough to Sheffield with Northern you're looking at a 4 and a half hour journey, unless you wait for the aforementioned 1900, which is the one train that goes via Selby and takes the usual 3 hours. Given it's the last train of the day and Northern's reputation for short notice cancellations would you risk it?

 

[Barnsley]

I'd bet that the 2 booked Northern services via Selby will not run, as they are crewed by Hull crews with no way to get back, as the 2026 from Hull passes the 1957 from Sheffield between Selby and Howden.
Last time though, Northern amended the diagrams of the crew so it was just Scarborough to Hull, but did not remove it from the journey planners, so it was showing on CIS to Sheffield, cue lots of angry passengers and call to Northern control asking why they had not removed it (I was on shift that day!)

 

[Neptune]

I'd bet that the 2 booked Northern services via Selby will not run, as they are crewed by Hull crews with no way to get back, as the 2026 from Hull passes the 1957 from Sheffield between Selby and Howden.

Oh ye of little faith. I’ve just had a look and I’ll wager you that they are both fully crewed. Pass rides either via Hull trains, via York or via Leeds depending on the service or day of the week.

Our planning teams can easily think laterally around a tiny detail like that

 

[JD2168]

The other way of getting from Sheffield to Bridlington or Scarborough via train during this would be to use Cross Country to York then catch the York to Bridlington via Hull train, changing at either Hull or Bridlington or using the East Yorkshire bus service between Bridlington & Scarborough.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The other way of getting from Sheffield to Bridlington or Scarborough via train during this would be to use Cross Country to York then catch the York to Bridlington via Hull train, changing at either Hull or Bridlington or using the East Yorkshire bus service between Bridlington & Scarborough.

Unless I'm missing something why wouldn't you just change at York onto the direct TPE service to Scarborough?

 

[sjm77]

This scenario of Northern not running via Selby at least in the hours when Hull trains does not is disgusting. It is a total failure of Northern management and the department for Transport. David Davies MP should be making a big fuss behind the scenes if not publically. Is he?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This scenario of Northern not running via Selby at least in the hours when Hull trains does not is disgusting. It is a total failure of Northern management and the department for Transport. David Davies MP should be making a big fuss behind the scenes if not publically. Is he?

Why should David Davies be making a big fuss? It’s his government who set the budget for the DfT and Northern are just implementing that budget.

Route knowledge is one of the things that has been culled recently to save money by removing route refresh days.

 

[sjm77]

Why should David Davies be making a big fuss?

Because it affects his constituency!

 

[3RDGEN]

Why should David Davies be making a big fuss? It’s his government who set the budget for the DfT and Northern are just implementing that budget.

Route knowledge is one of the things that has been culled recently to save money by removing route refresh days.

It's stated above Hull crews sign via Selby which would be enough to run a two hourly service alternating with HT's to Doncaster, alternative is to send the express bus direct Hull / Brough to Doncaster vice Goole which would make life easier for onward passengers.

All they have done is run the normal service to Goole and terminate then get buses to run onto Hull, minimal effort as there not interested in providing a service. If it was just a week or weekends this would be OK but for a month it's pathetic.

Because it affects his constituency!

Never concern him before, however you would think the three Hull Labour MP's may care or at least jump on the bangwagon.

 

[JD2168]

Unless I'm missing something why wouldn't you just change at York onto the direct TPE service to Scarborough?

When I have bought an on the day return from Sheffield to Bridlington at the bottom of the ticket it says ‘only valid via Hull’, if this is the same with Scarborough train then this could be a solution.

 

[Mugby]

About ten years ago, I travelled several times on a service from Hull at 1752 (Mon-Sat) which was routed via Selby to Sheffield, arriving at 1919.
There was a return working from Sheffield to Hull (also Mon-Sat) at 1958 which was also routed via Selby.

Although the route via Selby is about ten miles further than via Goole, there was little or no difference in journey time due to the faster running on the ECML.

 

[sjm77]

About ten years ago, I travelled several times on a service from Hull at 1752 (Mon-Sat) which was routed via Selby to Sheffield, arriving at 1919.
There was a return working from Sheffield to Hull (also Mon-Sat) at 1958 which was also routed via Selby.

Although the route via Selby is about ten miles further than via Goole, there was little or no difference in journey time due to the faster running on the ECML.

Exactly! Some of us are old enough to remember that ~35 years ago a barge hit the Goole swing bridge and damaged it so much that the line was closed for many months. Services were diverted via Selby with no time penalty. The British Rail Hull Executive HST made a stop at Selby instead of Goole and British Rail quickly discovered that Selby was a higher yielding station stop than Goole had been. Shortly after the switch was made permanent.

 

[Purple Train]

Because it affects his constituency!

I had no idea the line went through Monmouth!
(Sorry... )

 

[3RDGEN]

Exactly! Some of us are old enough to remember that ~35 years ago a barge hit the Goole swing bridge and damaged it so much that the line was closed for many months. Services were diverted via Selby with no time penalty. The British Rail Hull Executive HST made a stop at Selby instead of Goole and British Rail quickly discovered that Selby was a higher yielding station stop than Goole had been. Shortly after the switch was made permanent.

As per attached example from 1989, to be fair it was an eleven month closure so something had to be done. Buses Gilberdyke to Goole and a train shuttle Goole - Doncaster. Fewer services back then and a few Hull - York trains became York - Selby with the Sheffield stopping at Selby for connections instead.

 

[westv]

About ten years ago, I travelled several times on a service from Hull at 1752 (Mon-Sat) which was routed via Selby to Sheffield, arriving at 1919.
There was a return working from Sheffield to Hull (also Mon-Sat) at 1958 which was also routed via Selby.

Although the route via Selby is about ten miles further than via Goole, there was little or no difference in journey time due to the faster running on the ECML.

It was 10 years ago this landslip happened. At the time I used to get the 05:20 Northern service Hull to Doncaster on Mondays to connect with the ECML service there. It diverted via Selby.

Landslip at Hatfield Colliery (near Doncaster) line to Hull/Scunthorpe now reopened.

What has happened today?

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