Elizabeth line & beyond from Farringdon: unsatisfactory ticketing situation

[James H]

This weekend I am I involved in organising two groups travelling from Farringdon to Windsor and Marlow.

The groups are of mixed age and will be using railcards.

I won’t be travelling with the groups myself on the outward leg and plan to buy the tickets and give to those who will be in charge on the day.

However I thought I would scout out the situation to see what would happen if I didn’t sort the tickets ahead of time, or if more people join at short notice and extra tickets are needed on the day.

The Thameslink TVMs say no fares are available to Marlow or Windsor.

The LU POMs on the other side of Cowcross Street won’t sell discounted child tickets and tell you to go to an NR ticket office.

The ticket office was closed.

This is the sort of annoyance that will make my less rail-minded colleagues want to hire a bus next time! Grr.

 

[JonathanH]

The Thameslink TVMs say no fares are available to Marlow or Windsor.

That is because no fares are defined from Farringdon to Marlow or Windsor. Validity is needed for the journey to Paddington which TfL have decided to price as the same fare as if the journey was starting on the underground.

You can use 'Tickets from another station' to buy tickets from a station beyond Central London to Windsor or Marlow with 'Maltese cross' validity and start short at Farringdon.

For example, Deptford to Marlow is £13.30 for an off peak day return with a railcard, which compares favourably with the price of £12.90 from Paddington.

 

[James H]

Yes it’s actually cheaper to do that.

But trying to explain this rigmarole to a ‘normal’ person who will be hard pressed supervising a load of kids and adults and it sounds absurd

 

[yorkie]

It's because of the mess that Farringdon is in; the tail wags the dog when it comes to Farringdon and railway ticketing.

Buying from a TVM is a rather outdated concept these days; the forum's site has no problem issuing tickets for this journey by "splitting" it into multiple tickets (you still have to collect from a TVM, due to TfL having a problem with e-tickets which is well documented elsewhere), but as pointed out above, it's slightly cheaper to buy from Deptford and 'start short' (but only by about 10p for a full price adult ticket, so nothing in it really!)

 

[jon81uk]

Whats the rigmarole? You get a TfL ticket and then a separate National Rail ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Whats the rigmarole? You get a TfL ticket and then a separate National Rail ticket.

The whole journey is on National Rail, so this shouldn't be necessary. Also most retailers will not offer such a combination.

I agree it's not a rigmarole when using the forum's site, but TOCs* don't like split ticketing so won't offer it (and they get free advertising on trains to persuade people to use their own sites, which typically charge people more money of course!) and furthermore in the London area a lot of people do seem to prefer using TVMs rather than buy online; I can kind of understand why this is the case, given the dominance of paper tickets. It's completely different here in Yorkshire where the vast majority of customers are using e-tickets, mostly bought online.

(* Except Chiltern; I've not tried this specific journey but in other cases, the Chiltern website has offered splits, though the implementation can be deeply flawed at times!)

 

[James H]

Whats the rigmarole? You get a TfL ticket and then a separate National Rail ticket.

for a TfL journey it would be better to use contactless and Zip for the kids but that involves getting off at West Drayton. In what way is that an improvement?

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Buying from a TVM is a rather outdated concept these days; the forum's site has no problem issuing tickets for this journey

I would certainly do this personally but the numbers in the group could vary on the day and there is a chance of buying too many tickets and wasting money, or not having enough and then needing to faff around at Farringdon. I wish to give the person in charge on the day some simple ticketing advice.

 

[yorkie]

for a TfL journey it would be better to use contactless and Zip for the kids but that involves getting off at West Drayton. In what way is that an improvement?

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I would certainly do this personally but the numbers in the group could vary on the day and there is a chance of buying too many tickets and wasting money, or not having enough and then needing to faff around at Farringdon. I wish to give the person in charge on the day some simple ticketing advice.

I'm not suggesting buying online; a website can be used for immediate travel even for paper tickets, as the TOD collection codes work instantly. It's not like the early days of TVMs where you were advised to allow 2 hours!

 

[Haywain]

I'm not suggesting buying online; a website can be used for immediate travel even for paper tickets, as the TOD collection codes work instantly. It's not like the early days of TVMs where you were advised to allow 2 hours!

Maybe not quite immediate if there's a large number of tickets to sort through!

 

[James H]

It is unsatisfactory that tickets to two destinations just off the Elizabeth line cannot easily be purchased at Farringdon at all times of day.

I am well versed in why Farringdon is a special case in ticketing terms, but it is disappointing that more hasn't been done to improve matters given the new journey opportunities offered by the Elizabeth line.

I have tried purchasing batches of tickets for this type of group at the last minute en route to the station. It's the sort of thing that trips the fraud alert on the LNER app and you find yourself waiting anxiously for the TOD code to arrive.

So far as possible I will try to sort all ticketing before the day of travel, but I don't envy the leaders on the day if they find themselves needing to buy any extras.

 

[yorkie]

It is unsatisfactory that tickets to two destinations just off the Elizabeth line cannot easily be purchased at Farringdon at all times of day.

This is the way TfL want it to be; they want it to be deemed as a "tube" line from Abbey Wood/Liverpool St to Paddington.

I am well versed in why Farringdon is a special case in ticketing terms, but it is disappointing that more hasn't been done to improve matters given the new journey opportunities offered by the Elizabeth line.

TfL only seem to be interested in getting as many people to use PAYG as possible; they probably hope people will use Oyster/Contactless to Paddington and change there, I don't know. You could ask them but you are unlikely to get any sort of vaguely sensible response.

I have tried purchasing batches of tickets for this type of group at the last minute en route to the station. It's the sort of thing that trips the fraud alert on the LNER app and you find yourself waiting anxiously for the TOD code to arrive.

Maybe try a different retailer other than the LNER app?

So far as possible I will try to sort all ticketing before the day of travel, but I don't envy the leaders on the day if they find themselves needing to buy any extras.

Sadly there isn't anyone who is both in a position of power to do anything and also cares enough to do anything.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Farringdon situation is indeed too confusing for non-rail-enthusiasts to understand.

If you want a through ticket, I suspect that TfL would want you to purchase with an origin of Zone U1* Londn, given their obsession of pretending it is a tube line. I had a very brief search for documents to back that up and couldn't find anything though.

 

[James H]

This is the way TfL want it to be; they want it to be deemed as a "tube" line from Abbey Wood/Liverpool St to Paddington.

I have no issue with that but it ought to be seamless to the passenger and the TVM at the Thameslink / Elizabeth line entrance to Farringdon ought to be able to retail a Z1 to Marlow or Windsor ticket for immediate travel

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TfL would want you to purchase with an origin of Zone U1* Londn

Indeed that is the correct ticket but the systems ought to be in place to seamlessly sell this ticket to an intending passenger without needing to fake a journey from Deptford or Kentish Town or Finsbury Park.

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Sadly there isn't anyone who is both in a position of power to do anything and also cares enough to do anything.

I feel i ought to write to GTR, TfL and GWR but I fear they will all fail to grasp the issue and/or pass the buck to one of the others. If it were purely a London matter I would involve an Assembly member but as it involves travel to destinations beyond London no politician is likely to care much.

 

[JonathanH]

It is unsatisfactory that tickets to two destinations just off the Elizabeth line cannot easily be purchased at Farringdon at all times of day.

TfL would point out that Contactless is available for journeys from Farringdon to both Marlow and Windsor, and can easily be "purchased" at all times of day.

 

[yorkie]

I have no issue with that but it ought to be seamless to the passenger and the TVM at the Thameslink / Elizabeth line entrance to Farringdon ought to be able to retail a Z1 to Marlow or Windsor ticket for immediate travel

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Indeed that is the correct ticket but the systems ought to be in place to seamlessly sell this ticket to an intending passenger without needing to fake a journey from Deptford or Kentish Town or Finsbury Park.

They are and the forum's site will do it (including without splits).

 

[James H]

TfL would point out that Contactless is available for journeys from Farringdon to both Marlow and Windsor, and can easily be "purchased" at all times of day.

This is useless for travelling with children. TfL's concessions (eg free travel for under-11s, and the Zip card for older kids) only apply as far as West Drayton.

 

[JonathanH]

This is useless for travelling with children. TfL's concessions (eg the Zip card) only apply as far as West Drayton.

...and more expensive as well, but TfL don't really care what happens outside the London boundary.

They are and the forum's site will do it (including without splits).

More expensively than a ticket from Deptford though. Looked to be £16.85 to me, unless I was doing something wrong.

(I appreciate that may well be what the fare is from Zone 1.)

 

[Haywain]

I feel i ought to write to GTR, TfL and GWR but I fear they will all fail to grasp the issue and/or pass the buck to one of the others.

GTR would, rightly, say that it's nothing to do with them.

 

[James H]

GTR would, rightly, say that it's nothing to do with them.

Well, it's their TVM but I appreciate it can only retail tickets that exist in the database.

However given Farringdon's unusual status there is perhaps a case for special measures of some kind at this location where no fare from ZFD is defined.

 

[Haywain]

Well, it's their TVM but I appreciate it can only retail tickets that exist in the database.

However given Farringdon's unusual status there is perhaps a case for special measures of some kind at this location where no fare from ZFD is defined.

That may be the case but it is way outside GTR's remit.

 

[miklcct]

I would complain to Thameslink as, at this occasion, the ticket machine should sell an Underground zone 1 - National Rail destination ticket.

 

[James H]

If we buy tickets from further afield and start short at Farringdon, how likely are we to have hassle at the gateline at Farringdon?

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(The forum ticket site has just helped me find an even cheaper fare set by GTR rather than GWR that gives an itinerary via Farringdon)

 

[miklcct]

If we buy tickets from further afield and start short at Farringdon, how likely are we to have hassle at the gateline at Farringdon?

If the ticket is from Kentish Town, then it is undoubtedly valid to enter the Underground gateline for a change from Thameslink to the tube to Paddington, as exiting the National Rail gateline and entering the Underground one is an official interchange route.

I have tried such ticket but it didn't work the barrier at the Barbican entrance at the Elizabeth line station. However I haven't tried using the gatelines at the main concourses.

 

[MotCO]

Is there such as a thing as Group or Party Tickets these days which may help?

 

[James H]

Is there such as a thing as Group or Party Tickets these days which may help?

Such tickets are rarely the best value option

 

[TrenHotel]

I feel i ought to write to GTR, TfL and GWR but I fear they will all fail to grasp the issue and/or pass the buck to one of the others. If it were purely a London matter I would involve an Assembly member but as it involves travel to destinations beyond London no politician is likely to care much.

Worth trying Caroline Pidgeon of the Liberal Democrats, who's the most clued-up of them about transport.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Not related but its pub in the park at marlow and rock the Moor at cookham so expect the marlow branch to be very heavily loaded

 

[dastocks]

The 'Southern' mobile app quotes me £12.90 for an off-peak child day return Farringdon to Marlow - this is on a weekday. You should be able to buy as many of those as you need using the app on your 'phone and then collect them from the TVM.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

GTR would, rightly, say that it's nothing to do with them.

That it's National Rail makes it worse, but the same machines would also sell a London Terminals origin ticket for a journey that needs travel on the Underground first. That's poor, although the data to do it properly (when you haven't got a journey) isn't completely right either. Any site/app would sell a ticket from zone 1 in both cases wouldn't it? If it doesn't, it's wrong. A special case would need to be made for Farringdon and any other central station, but selling a ticket already involves so many hacks that aren't in the data, and every online retailer has done it properly