Of course it will go through. The so called consultation is just a box ticking exercise. Cynical, me?
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TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards
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His about they introduce Project Oval and then deal with travelcards.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That isn't a terrible idea. If almost everyone switches to contactless, then they can very easily convince people with line like "Only 2% of passengers now use paper Travelcards".
How likely is it that SWR (or similar) will reduce their off peak fares to compensate if the day travelcard is removed ? Or perhaps offer another ticket - I’m pretty sure I read that TfL were implying that it would be up to TOCs if they offered something to replace this facility.
Not at all likely. Why would they reduce the price of off-peak day returns to London, just because people have to pay extra to go on the underground?
In any case, it is nothing to do with the TOCs. They just operate the trains. The DfT are the decision makers on revenue.
Yes, Project Oval, that is extension of TfL's fare arrangements, which is DfT / Government policy.
SWR already offer cheap 'Evening out' and 'Sunday out' returns to Waterloo.
It would be a canny move to offer a
London National Rail day ranger as a Travelcard substitute, would be quite useful for travel on Thameslink and the Southern metro area.
At the same price as the existing travelcard? For less validity than the Contactless cap? Non starter I think.
Technically TfL are proposing to withdraw from the travelcard agreement, that is they won't issue them or accept them. They will still exist and be valid on NR services. It would be for TOCs\DfT withdraw the now somewhat defunct tickets.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Unlikely. Those SWR priced Travelcards for pennines more than the day returns are an anomaly, most Travelcards are priced roughly at the Boundary Zone return plus the 1-6 Travelcard sort of level. More likely if they were kept that those ones would be increased to a more normal level.
Sounds like you're accidentally comparing a period return with an Off Peak Day Travelcard here to me
SWR got rid of most Off Peak Day Returns just to London a long time ago, they're not available beyond Basingstoke.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, there are some anomalous ones on the South Coast where the Travelcard is priced very similarly to the Off Peak Day Return, with the uplift being around a quid or less. I forget which exact ones they are but they've been discusssed here before.
Pretty much everywhere else, the off peak outboundary Travelcard is priced roughly the same as the Off Peak Day Return from BZ6 to the origin plus the Travelcard itself.
I'm interested to hear where on the coast has an Off Peak Day Return to London that's set by SWR?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I had a quick look and I can't find it now. But it was mentioned here, I think somewhere in this thread, that there are a few somewhere in SWR land that are anomalously priced such that the uplift from the Off Peak Day Return to the Off Peak Day Travelcard is pennies. Can anyone help with what it was?
I'm fairly sure it was posted in response to a statement by myself along the lines of "most people won't pay more if what they do is the typical one Zone 1 return Tube journey once they get to London" - it was a case where they would.
If we include railcard discounts...
Burgess Hill to Z1-6 is £10.80
Burgess Hill to London Bridge is £9.10
£1.70 more for a travelcard than a return, and the railcard tube fare for Z1 is £1.75! A travelcard is cheaper than even a single Z1 journey here!
Even without the railcard, travelcard is £16.40 and LBG return is £13.80, which is £2.60 difference, which is still 10p cheaper than a single Adult Z1 journey!
...and you wonder why TfL have identified scope for bringing in more revenue by pulling out of the travelcard agreement?
Essentially the mainline operators have given away travelcards too cheaply and TfL can make more revenue by getting passengers to use Oyster and Contactless.
In which case, the solution would be increasing the amount of revenue given to TfL instead of withdrawing travelcards? This is about more than TfL not having enough money.
I would happily pay more for my integrated travelcard as opposed to using contactless or Oyster instead.
Oh, and, of course, there are also £2 child flat fare Travelcards from Burgess Hill as well!
There has been much criticism of the fact that the abolition of paper One Day Travelcards, and of paper tickets generally, will effectively prevent Londoners who don't have a bank account or use the internet and who aren't old enough to have an Oyster 60+ card or Freedom Pass (or have a disability that qualifies them for the latter) from using public transport.
However, whilst that is a perfectly valid argument against the proposal, I suppose in theory there's nothing to stop such a person from buying an Oyster card from a London Underground ticket vending machine using cash and then topping it up at a LU or National Rail TVM (or at an Oyster Stop shop, or whatever they call them these days) using cash each time they need to top it up. Still more of a faff than simply buying a paper ticket, though, and probably beyond the wit of some if not many people in that kind of situation, especially people with learning difficulties.
However, whilst that is a perfectly valid argument against the proposal, I suppose in theory there's nothing to stop such a person from buying an Oyster card from a London Underground ticket vending machine using cash and then topping it up at a LU or National Rail TVM (or at an Oyster Stop shop, or whatever they call them these days) using cash each time they need to top it up. Still more of a faff than simply buying a paper ticket, though, and probably beyond the wit of some if not many people in that kind of situation, especially people with learning difficulties.
gabrielhj07
Established Member
Are we at risk of entering standard minority territory here?
I’d rather have travelcards too but oyster really isn’t that hard to use.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The answer to "I don't have a bank account" is "get a bank account". Basic bank accounts exist even for those who have a terrible credit rating. If you *really* can't get one you can get a prepaid card. Or just an Oyster!
Buses have been cashless in London for nearly 10 years now. Are there really Londoners buying one day travelcards with cash to use on buses? (it's massively more expensive let alone having to get somewhere that issues one)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One can load an Oyster with cash. That's what cash users do.
Cash users who wear tinfoil hats so don't like Oyster tracking them can do whatever, to be honest, TfL does not have to provide for them. They are probably best advised to replace their Oyster frequently and not register it then there's little tracking data.
johncrossley
Established Member
At newsagents you can get a One Day Bus and Tram pass for £6, much less than the £15.20 for the Off-peak Day Travelcard, but more than the £5.25 daily cap for buses and trams.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or you can use cash to top up an Oyster.
You near enough never see anyone using any kind of paper ticket on London buses.
No there hasn't.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What cash users mostly do is get an Oyster and top it up with a tenner or twenty quid at a local shop when it runs out, same as e.g. their electricity card. You can top up with precise multiples of fares but hardly anyone does.
Most people in London with significant disabilities (mental or physical) will have a freedom pass.
There is a benefit of any paper ticket including Travelcards is that with a correct paper ticket there is no chance of any penalty fare for not touching in or out as being hard of hearing you can't always hear the bleep or visually impared with the gate being open to aleviate crowds e.g Wembley Park.
Also the benefit of a paper ticket is that there is no maximum journey time.
Its sometimes a hassle to get your money back like oyster charged a penalty fare from Tottenham Court to Walthamstow although no gateline was passed in between the journey was it classed as touch in a Tott CR but no touch out and no touch in but touch out at Walthamstow all within 44 minutes. Strangely classed as two separate journeys. A paper travelcard would have none of these issues.
The solution is easy for TfL - to increase the internal price levy of each Day Travelcard sold to TOC's from stations outside Greater London. It will then be a matter for each TOC to set a new fare from stations.
It is essential for seemless travel on one ticket for the benefit of London's economy. There is nothing wrong with a paper ticket.
Also the benefit of a paper ticket is that there is no maximum journey time.
Its sometimes a hassle to get your money back like oyster charged a penalty fare from Tottenham Court to Walthamstow although no gateline was passed in between the journey was it classed as touch in a Tott CR but no touch out and no touch in but touch out at Walthamstow all within 44 minutes. Strangely classed as two separate journeys. A paper travelcard would have none of these issues.
The solution is easy for TfL - to increase the internal price levy of each Day Travelcard sold to TOC's from stations outside Greater London. It will then be a matter for each TOC to set a new fare from stations.
It is essential for seemless travel on one ticket for the benefit of London's economy. There is nothing wrong with a paper ticket.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A green light is shown on the pad as well as the bleep.
If you're deafblind, you almost certainly have a Freedom Pass so it doesn't matter.
This only affects enthusiasts in practice.
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That doesn't allow them to remove most of the expensive-to-maintain magstripe reading machines on the gatelines, though. Abolishing paper tickets (and finding another method for cross London transfers at the small number of stations involved) does.
johncrossley
Established Member
The One Day Bus and Tram pass was reintroduced soon after buses went cashless but I don't think I've seen anyone use one. Presumably it was reintroduced because of the lack of a reasonably priced alternative for people who didn't want to use Oyster or contactless.
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You don't need paper for this. A Travelcard issued on ITSO gives the same benefit.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not quite sure, but you hardly ever see one. The only paper tickets you tend to see on buses are outboundary Travelcards (you can tell because they're on orange card) and relatively few of those because most people see those as "a return to London including the Tube", indeed that's what most people ask for.
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