First Bus Ireland (Aircoach/Matthews) Discussion

[F Great Eastern]

*Mod Note* This discussion has been split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/firstgroup-general-discussion.65668/

Aircoach in Dublin have just had 16x Volvo B8RLE 2 door MCV Evora's delivered.

In addition, they have sent staff from around the group to Dublin to cover for a shortfall of drivers. The staff temporarily in Dublin are being put up in hotels with full board by First and will be driving the airport car park shuttles.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Aircoach in Dublin have just had 16x Volvo B8RLE 2 door MCV Evora's delivered.

In addition, they have sent staff from around the group to Dublin to cover for a shortfall of drivers. The staff temporarily in Dublin are being put up in hotels with full board by First and will be driving the airport car park shuttles.

Have they gained some contracts at the Airport?

 

[F Great Eastern]

They have a fleet of 11x articulated Mercedes Citaros on car park shuttles that have been running 24 hours a day for the last 15 years that are really struggling with various electrical faults to the point that First had to send over 3x Plaxton Centros surplus from First Midland Red a few months ago to bail them out as it was common for several a day of the Citaros to be off with faults.

Dublin Airport wants to remove all diesel vehicles from use as soon as possible, but they still need to build the infrastructure at the car parks and the airport to be able to charge fully electric vehicles and that is not expected to be completed until 2024 or more likely 2025. Also there is a long lead time on the electric vehicles First want.

Therefore these MCV Evoras are meant to be an interim solution until the electrical infrastructure is up and running and the buses have been delivered. Once that infrastructure is in place and the electrical vehicles are in place, some or all of the Evora's will be sent over to First's UK operations or disposed of.

The short term issue this causes though is when you're replacing bendy buses with rigids is the loss of capacity, so frequency will increase (hence bigger fleet). However Aircoach don't have enough drivers now so First are sending UK drivers over to Dublin for the next few months with a hotel paid for at the companies expense to operate the extra services during the busier months.

There are also said to be some new coaches set to be delivered imminently, not sure of the number, type and what they will be used on yet,

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They have a fleet of 11x articulated Mercedes Citaros on car park shuttles that have been running 24 hours a day for the last 15 years that are really struggling with various electrical faults to the point that First had to send over 3x Plaxton Centros surplus from First Midland Red a few months ago to bail them out as it was common for several a day of the Citaros to be off with faults.

Are you talking about the CN07 lot (Volvo B7RLE chassis), fleet numbers 66691-66699?

I've had one on the X50 from Worcester to Evesham (66694 CN07 HVJ). It was a good bus but it's starting to show its age now.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Are you talking about the CN07 lot (Volvo B7RLE chassis), fleet numbers 66691-66699?

I've had one on the X50 from Worcester to Evesham (66693). It was a good bus but it's starting to show its age now.

66696/7/8 are the three in Dublin.

They were only ever a very temporary solution for Aircoach. They were at one point having to use coaches on car park shuttles as they were so short.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

5x Mercedes Benz Tourismo's have now been delivered to Aircoach and will operate out of the Dublin depot.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/darre...gVcwB-2ogSZRN-2ogvjfo-2ogbPzY-2og6vXC-2ogaBut

A further batch are said to be on their way to the Belfast/Derry depots.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 17x Volvo B8RLE MCV eVoRa 12.9m have now been delivered with the following registrations.

231D25772
231D25773
231D25774
231D25775
231D25776
231D25778
231D25780
231D25835
231D25838
231D25840
231D25841
231D25849
231D25851
231D25852
231D25861
231D25943
231D25948

The 5x Dublin based Mecerdes Tourismo are confirmed as

231D15557
231D15559
231D15561
231D15562
231D15563

The 4x Belfast / Derry based Mercedes Tourismo are confirmed as.

BV72YCD
BV72YCE
BV72YCF
BV72YCG

Have been unable to verify the First fleet numbers for any of the above thus far.

Despite what you might read elsewhere, 2017 Plaxton Panther 3 Volvo B11R 20929-20932 remain operating out of Dublin and similar 2018 Panthers 20933-20939 remain in service in Belfast.

 

[Fin447]

I heard the B8RLEs are 69601-17

 

[Fletcj10]

The 17x Volvo B8RLE MCV eVoRa 12.9m have now been delivered with the following registrations.

231D25772
231D25773
231D25774
231D25775
231D25776
231D25778
231D25780
231D25835
231D25838
231D25840
231D25841
231D25849
231D25851
231D25852
231D25861
231D25943
231D25948

The 5x Dublin based Mecerdes Tourismo are confirmed as

231D15557
231D15559
231D15561
231D15562
231D15563

The 4x Belfast / Derry based Mercedes Tourismo are confirmed as.

BV72YCD
BV72YCE
BV72YCF
BV72YCG

Have been unable to verify the First fleet numbers for any of the above thus far.

Despite what you might read elsewhere, 2017 Plaxton Panther 3 Volvo B11R 20929-20932 remain operating out of Dublin and similar 2018 Panthers 20933-20939 remain in service in Belfast.

Does anyone know the fleet numbers for these?

I’ve heard there’s a 23801 fleet number now bouncing around but I find no record of this anywhere so thought it might be the new coaches?

 

[Volvodart]

Does anyone know the fleet numbers for these?

69601-17

 

[Fletcj10]

69601-17

Thank you!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Buses
Volvo B8RLE MCV eVoRa 12.9m are B28D with the following fleet numbers.

69603	231D25772
69604	231D25773
69605	231D25774
69606	231D25775
69607	231D25776
69608	231D25778
69609	231D25780
69611	231D25835
69612	231D25838
69614	231D25840
69615	231D25841
69613	231D25849
69616	231D25851
69617	231D25852
69610	231D25861
69601	231D25943
69602	231D25948

Coaches
Mercedes Tourismos, believed to be the 12.3m variant (not confirmed) with conflicting reports on seating capacity depending on who you ask.

24206	231D15557
24204	231D15559
24207	231D15561
24205	231D15562
24203	231D15563
TBC	BV72YCD
TBC	BV72YCE
TBC	BV72YCF
TBC	BV72YCG

 

[F Great Eastern]

The above have now started entering service with four of the Evora's now in service on the Blue Car Park (in plain white, to full First spec, with pink handrails, purple floor and brown leather seats) and four of the ROI based coaches are in service on the 704X Dublin to Cork Express route.

Aircoach

Great Photos Ryan !!!!!

www.facebook.com

More coaches and buses are due to enter service in coming weeks and the car park shuttles are due to get liveried.

 

[markymark2000]

Coaches
Mercedes Tourismos, believed to be the 12.3m variant (not confirmed) with conflicting reports on seating capacity depending on who you ask.

24206	231D15557
24204	231D15559
24207	231D15561
24205	231D15562
24203	231D15563
TBC	BV72YCD
TBC	BV72YCE
TBC	BV72YCF
TBC	BV72YCG

Where are the BV72s destined for as surely not AirCoach else why have they got UK registrations.

 

[richw]

I’ve heard there’s a 23801 fleet number now bouncing around but I find no record of this anywhere so thought it might be the new coaches?

That would be a Scania.

Mercedes will be 24***

 

[F Great Eastern]

Where are the BV72s destined for as surely not AirCoach else why have they got UK registrations.

Because Aircoach is made up of two parts:

- Last Passive Ltd t/a Aircoach (the main company based in Dublin, Republic of Ireland, with outstations in Cork and Galway)
- First Northern Ireland Ltd (the NI side based in Belfast with an outstation in Derry/Londonderry)

Because the 705X is a cross border route, it employs staff on both sides of the Irish border and thus those employed by First Northern Ireland need to drive vehicles registered in the UK.

 

[markymark2000]

Because Aircoach is made up of two parts:

- Last Passive Ltd t/a Aircoach (the main company based in Dublin, Republic of Ireland, with outstations in Cork and Galway)
- First Northern Ireland Ltd (the NI side based in Belfast with an outstation in Derry/Londonderry)

Because the 705X is a cross border route, it employs staff on both sides of the Irish border and thus those employed by First Northern Ireland need to drive vehicles registered in Northern Ireland.

That would make complete sense. I forgot they were now a cross border operation.

Thank you

 

[F Great Eastern]

Have to say the initial reports on the coaches don't seem to be too positive. Seems to have been a pit of penny pinching on the spec as well as being fairly high density compared to the competition.

It seems some habits die hard in First.

 

[Tetchytyke]

thus those employed by First Northern Ireland need to drive vehicles registered in the UK.

Surprised they’re on Mainland and not NI plates though.

Looking at photos, the seat pitch looks snug.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Surprised they’re on Mainland and not NI plates though.

Looking at photos, the seat pitch looks snug.

They're shorter vehicles than they are replacing with more seats. And the existing ones were nothing special. Centre toilet as opposed to rear might save some room though.

Aircoach has lost its way somewhat under current management. Morphed from a premium luxury operator into a more value oriented one.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Aircoach MD is now joining Go-Ahead Ireland and the Operations Head in Dublin has also left to return to the UK. This can only be good news for the operation, as there has been somewhat strange commercial decisions,

The general feeling is that the management that are moving on have strengths in a fair few areas, but have really dropped the ball commercially which has allowed the competition to really claw back ground on the 700 route to Dublin City Centre, 704X to Cork and 705X to Belfast, of which Aircoach were the lead operator. They've also recently ordered high density, fairly low specification coaches when the competition are upping their game with comfort onboard which seems madness.

There's also been general dissatisfaction from staff over a while now that Aircoach has become more and more structured like a First UK Bus division company with many ex UK group staff working there now, which doesn't help. What it really needs is people who knows the market inside out.

Also any reaction I've seen to the new coaches has been generally poor, with the legroom being described as poor and drivers needing to tell passengers how to change the position of seating in terms or recline and movement etc as some people were that uncomfortable. The old 12.6m / 12.8m Panthers at 49 seats with a toilet were a substantial downgrade on what come before, but these new 12.3m Mercs which seat 53 plus a toilet are worse still.

For reference, this was Aircoach standard spec through the years
- Setra 415HD - 44 seats without a toilet - 12.1m
- Volvo Jonckheere - 53 seats without a toilet - 13.4m
- Plaxton Panther 3 - 53 seats without a toilet / 49 seats with a toilet - 12.6m / 12.8m
- Mercedes Tourismo - 55 seats without a toilet / 53 seats with a toilet - 12.3m

It's a substantial downgrade over time and they've gone from being a premium operator to a budget orientated one. National Express have been busy exploiting this, pointing out that their Levante 3's on the Belfast runs have only 4 extra seats but are over 2m longer.

 

[jammy36]

To be honest 53 seats (with toilet) in a 12.3m coach doesn't sound especially poor and none of the journey times are very long. It's pretty standard spec for a Tourismo and numerous other operators use vehicles like this successfully, including on touring work. I'd assume these use one of the standard fit Mercedes "Travel Star" seats which are deployed in equivalent situations without issue, so I wonder why they are problematic here?

I agree that the specification is a downgrade from the vehicles that went before, especially the Setras. But... this is an operation geared around serving Dublin airport / regional coach market. In terms of the airport market a quick check of departures this morning shows that over 40% are with what I'd class as budget airlines (mostly Ryanair). Others like Air Lingus aren't exactly generous with their economy seating spacing. Even without the budget airlines the vast majority of departures from Dublin are short haul flights to western europe and many to the UK.

Coach travel is price sensitive. I can fly with Ryanair from Dublin to Liverpool for about €10 each way. In that context how much can a connecting coach service charge...? It seems hard to justify running high spec premium coaches when the majority of airport customers are choosing low cost airlines or travelling on short haul flights.

 

[F Great Eastern]

To be honest 53 seats (with toilet) in a 12.3m coach doesn't sound especially poor and none of the journey times are very long. It's pretty standard spec for a Tourismo and numerous other operators use vehicles like this successfully, including on touring work. I'd assume these use one of the standard fit Mercedes "Travel Star" seats which are deployed in equivalent situations without issue, so I wonder why they are problematic here?

I agree that the specification is a downgrade from the vehicles that went before, especially the Setras. But... this is an operation geared around serving Dublin airport / regional coach market. In terms of the airport market a quick check of departures this morning shows that over 40% are with what I'd class as budget airlines (mostly Ryanair). Others like Air Lingus aren't exactly generous with their economy seating spacing. Even without the budget airlines the vast majority of departures from Dublin are short haul flights to western europe and many to the UK.

Coach travel is price sensitive. I can fly with Ryanair from Dublin to Liverpool for about €10 each way. In that context how much can a connecting coach service charge...? It seems hard to justify running high spec premium coaches when the majority of airport customers are choosing low cost airlines or travelling on short haul flights.

The whole Aircoach model was based on offering a premium service though and they were disruptors and innovators in terms of comfort onboard which is what made them successful in the first place which is why they always had tagline 'Travel in Luxury' and were profitable doing that. This is something that appears to have been lost over the last number of years as more and more management have been brought over from the UK who are determined to run the operation like an extension of a UK arm rather than leave it to people who understand the dynamics of the business and the Irish market like the previous MD.

Also the new Tourismos are not being used on the short hop routes though, they are being used on 3.5 hour journeys from Dublin to Cork and 5 hour journeys from Dublin to Derry/Londonderry which they are completely unsuitable for. You might just about get away with it on the short hops from Dublin Airport to Dublin City centre, but for these long distances the spec is completely unsuitable. It's also not helped by having a more space consuming full wheelchair lift at the front with a dedicated space which further condenses the seating versus having the standard wheelchair position further down the coach. Having the full wheelchair lift at the front is very much a good thing, but at the short length these coaches are and the high density layout, it just makes things even tighter. Most operators with this wheelchair arrangement normally take out a row of seats to compensate, but with Aircoach it's almost like they wanted to have the benefits of a full wheelchair lift, but not want to sacrifice capacity.

To give you an example of the issues that Aircoach faces on it's two big Intercity corridors where they're deploying these new coaches

• Aircoach have Mercedes Tourismos, with no tables, no curtains, no seat back pockets, USB charging sockets on the ceiling, with a toilet and they have 53 seats and are 12.3m long.
  
  
• The competition on the 704X are operating luxury tri-axle Volvo 9900 coaches with tables, curtains and seat back pockets and USB charging sockets on the seats, with a toilet, they have 53 seats and are 14m long.
  
  
• The competition on the 705x are operating Levante vehicles with tables, curtains, seat back pockets and USB charging sockets with a toilet on the seats, they have 56 seats and are 14.9m long.

Also this needs to be looked at in view of what the competition are doing. Put it quite simply, the competition are offering a far more superior onboard experience whilst charging pretty much the same price as Aircoach these days, so bit by bit Aircoach is seeing passengers bleed to competitors on their main corridors and when you combine that with some poor commercial decision making that has seen National Express in particular run rings around them and even make some not so subtle digs at them, you start to have a problem.

 

[Avenger20]

Having travelled through Dublin Airport many times in recent months, one thing I have noticed is that the products on offer isn't able to hoover up demand quickly.

An airport as busy as Dublin without a connecting rail link needs mass-transit buses like Edinburgh's Airlink 100, running very frequently on a turn up and go basis.

Fair enough for the longer distances across Ireland and to the North, operations like Dublin Express and Aircoach are bang on, but for transfers into the city the whole operation needs simplified.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Having travelled through Dublin Airport many times in recent months, one thing I have noticed is that the products on offer isn't able to hoover up demand quickly.

An airport as busy as Dublin without a connecting rail link needs mass-transit buses like Edinburgh's Airlink 100, running very frequently on a turn up and go basis.

Fair enough for the longer distances across Ireland and to the North, operations like Dublin Express and Aircoach are bang on, but for transfers into the city the whole operation needs simplified.

The problem with transfers to the city centre is a lack of drivers which has meant that operators are not always able to fulfil their normal timetables let alone expand them.

For example over the past month or two at peak times Aircoach are supposed to operate 4 services an hour on the 700, but during the peak hours it's happened a fair few times recently that they are only able to operate 3 services an hour and there has been even a small number of occasions where 2 services in a row have been cancelled due to lack of staff. Generally the 700 is the first service to get cancellations if they're short of drivers, being the highest frequency of all their routes. Cancellations on other routes are almost unheard of unless there are breakdowns or some traffic incident.

Since Aircoach are now really focusing on the no frills side of the market, there is a driver shortage and Dublin Express offer a more premium on-board experience, a smart commercial move here would be to rebrand the 700 as Airbus with good spec double decks and position itself as something between the regular city bus and Airport Express coach at a price point that matches. The environment of there being a driver shortage which won't change in the short term and plenty of passengers who are left waiting too long for both DX and AC, this is one way to hoover some of that demand up and increase passenger numbers without needing extra staff. Some clever marketing could also help here.

 

[markymark2000]

Having travelled through Dublin Airport many times in recent months, one thing I have noticed is that the products on offer isn't able to hoover up demand quickly.

An airport as busy as Dublin without a connecting rail link needs mass-transit buses like Edinburgh's Airlink 100, running very frequently on a turn up and go basis.

Fair enough for the longer distances across Ireland and to the North, operations like Dublin Express and Aircoach are bang on, but for transfers into the city the whole operation needs simplified.

The issue with Dublin is the National Transport Authority (NTA) which heavily restricts competition on routes and they don't like routes abstracting from others so the only way this would work is if Dublin Bus did it.

For example, the Aircoach, Dublin Express, Citylink, GoBus, JJ Kavanagh & Sons, Translink, Wexford Bus and MC Ginley Coaches all have licence restrictions which prohibit local journeys between Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre. All because the NTA does not want competition. If all of these operators were permitted to make local journeys between the airport and Dublin City Centre, capacity would sky rocket. But no, the NTA stuck in the old days want no competition. If tickets could be sold for the journeys, there could be more buses between Dublin Airport and Dublin City than between Heathrow and London and that's saying something.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The issue with Dublin is the National Transport Authority (NTA) which heavily restricts competition on routes and they don't like routes abstracting from others so the only way this would work is if Dublin Bus did it.

For example, the Aircoach, Dublin Express, Citylink, GoBus, JJ Kavanagh & Sons, Translink, Wexford Bus and MC Ginley Coaches all have licence restrictions which prohibit local journeys between Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre. All because the NTA does not want competition. If all of these operators were permitted to make local journeys between the airport and Dublin City Centre, capacity would sky rocket. But no, the NTA stuck in the old days want no competition. If tickets could be sold for the journeys, there could be more buses between Dublin Airport and Dublin City than between Heathrow and London and that's saying something.

Dublin Bus already offer 24 hour stopping services to the airport. They pulled out of the express market because it was not one which they could compete in because of the investment required and also the lack of drivers. The lack of drivers is the single biggest problem right now, despite what you say, it's effecting all operators.

Having all those operators ferrying passengers between Dublin Airport and Dublin City as you suggest would be ridiculous and make things very fragmented. The one thing the NTA could do though is relax licensing to allow Dublin Express and Aircoach to use seats that are not in use between Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport and vice versa on their Belfast services for passengers travelling to the airport until the driver market improves.

Right now you have crazy situation where Aircoach 700 and 705X stop at the same place on O'Connell Street to the Airport, the 700 can be full and the 705x to Belfast via Dublin Airport can have seats free yet Aircoach are not permitted to take passengers to the airport on that route even though they have spare seats.

 

[markymark2000]

Having all those operators ferrying passengers between Dublin Airport and Dublin City as you suggest would be ridiculous and make things very fragmented. The one thing the NTA could do though is relax licensing to allow Dublin Express and Aircoach to use seats that are not in use between Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport and vice versa on their Belfast services for passengers travelling to the airport until the driver market improves.

Nothing wrong with it. If companies could make more money because they can start to sell the empty seats, they could pay drivers more which in turn means they could attract more drivers to the industry. The more restrictions there are, the harder it is to make money and so wages won't go as high because no one is earning enough money.

Right now you have crazy situation where Aircoach 700 and 705X stop at the same place on O'Connell Street to the Airport, the 700 can be full and the 705x to Belfast via Dublin Airport can have seats free yet Aircoach are not permitted to take passengers to the airport on that route even though they have spare seats.

All due to daft licencing rules. If you relax it for one firm, you have to relax it for all firms else it's unfair. Perhaps if the rules were significantly relaxed (local travel between Dublin Airport and City Centre is permitted but only where the route beyond Dublin Airport/City Centre complies with the current licencing rules. Meaning the licencing still applies and still subject to the same restrictions, just that 'local journeys' specifically between Dublin Airport and City Centre has an easement.

I don't agree with the rules at all but I have more understanding in some areas to reduce competition so that it's less hassle for passengers but on the Airport-City runs, the more operators, the better. More capacity, more competition, lower fares, higher standards.

 

[F Great Eastern]

A couple of major Aircoach Updates today

New Vehicle Order
It has been reported in RouteOne that Aircoach have placed an order for 24 Irizar ie Tram Battery Electric vehicles, including the first ever articulated ones for the right hand drive market.

Irizar ie tram fleet for Dublin Airport deployment - routeone

Irizar will supply 24 ie tram battery-electric buses to First Bus subsidiary Aircoach and the Dublin Airport Authority.

www.route-one.net

Irizar will supply 24 ie tram battery-electric buses to First Bus subsidiary Aircoach and the Dublin Airport Authority, the manufacturer has announced. The order is made of up eight, 12m examples and 16 articulated models at 18m.

Opportunity charging will feature on the buses, which are to be delivered by the end of 2024. The articulated models will be the first such examples in right-hand drive. Irizar says that data collated in other territories has shown that the ie tram can deliver up to 30% ridership growth through its futuristic look and tram-like appeal.

These vehicles once arrived in Dublin, will see that 23x Volvo B8RLE MCV Evoras, that were always an interim solution, will return to First operations in the UK.

New MD Appointed
Following Dervla McKay's departure to Go-Ahead Ireland, Kim Swan, a former colleague of Jeanette Bell (First Bus MD) has been appointed to the top role.

Aircoach appoints Kim Swan as new Managing Director | First Bus UK News

Kim Swan joins from P&O Ferries and brings over 30 years of leadership experience.

news.firstbus.co.uk

Aircoach, Ireland and Northern Ireland’s leading private bus and coach operator, is delighted to announce the appointment of Kim Swan as the new Managing Director.

Kim, who officially joined on September 11, brings over 30 years of leadership experience in customer and commercially focused roles across transport and logistics. Most recently, Kim was Interim Managing Director for P&O Ferries.

It doesn't seem that Kim has any previous experience in road passenger transport.

 

[Simon75]

How is the Leicester to Birmingham Airport Aircoach doing ?

 

[MasterSpenny]

17 new 13 metre Volvo B8RLE / MCV Evoras are being introduced to the fleet.

17-strong Volvo B8RLE MCV Evora fleet joins Aircoach in Dublin - routeone

Aircoach has taken delivery of 17 Volvo B8RLE single-deckers with MCV Evora bodywork for use on behalf of Dublin Airport Authority.

www.route-one.net

First Bus subsidiary Aircoach has taken delivery of 17 Volvo B8RLE single-deckers with MCV Evora bodywork for use on behalf of the Dublin Airport Authority. They have been supplied by Volvo Bus UK and Ireland.

The 13m examples have replaced a mixed fleet of Euro III buses. They are configured to suit airport operation and have front and centre doors along with luggage racks. Utilisation is on a mixture of passenger and staff car park shuttles that operate 24/7.

Support is provided by nearby dealership Irish Commercials. That outlet delivers servicing and parts and is located 3km from Dublin Airport.

Speaking about the delivery, Aircoach Managing Director Kim Swan says: “It has been great to welcome these new buses into our fleet. We are running a very busy shuttle service and we have got no time for downtime. Reliability is paramount – quite literally, every customer has a plan to catch!

“We considered our options carefully, but Volvo Buses won the tender and it has not let us down. Being brand new, the Volvos give our service a real upgrade which has been very much appreciated by our customers.

“The are much quieter and more comfortable than the older fleet, and they look fantastic, too.”