Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Bus News

[cnjb8]

Spotted Notts and Derby E400 1405 on Unibus U1 this morning with a new mostly grey with green stripes livery. It also had 'Greener Buses, Cleaner Air' branding which I don't quite get as I thought these are now no longer hybrids.

They are now Euro 6 diesels, whereas before they were Euro 5 hybrids. Basically when they were in diesel mode as hybrids they were more polluting than now

 

[STINT47]

Red Arrow is really struggling at the moment.

The service should have nine coaches out during the day but currently only only five buses are on the route of which only two are coaches.

On Saturday they actually had nine buses running for a whike in the afternoon only for two or the coaches to breakdown within half an hour of each other.

The reliability of the coaches is appalling at the moments. I don't know what the snswer is but something has to be done for what is meant to be a premium service.

 

[ALEMASTER]

There are some further changes to Peak District services from 28 May only just posted on the Derbyshird County Council website

65 Sheffield-Buxton has an improved Sunday service
216/217/M1/M4 Matlock area services - renumbered 157/158/159/160 with the Matlock town routes gaining a Saturday service.

This is in addition to the previously mentioned improvements to the X17 Barnsley-Matlock and introduction of the Breezer in the Hope Valley.

Details https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/trans...nges/forthcoming-changes-to-bus-services.aspx

 

[duncombec]

Red Arrow is really struggling at the moment.

The service should have nine coaches out during the day but currently only only five buses are on the route of which only two are coaches.

On Saturday they actually had nine buses running for a whike in the afternoon only for two or the coaches to breakdown within half an hour of each other.

The reliability of the coaches is appalling at the moments. I don't know what the snswer is but something has to be done for what is meant to be a premium service.

Without wishing to sound facetious, the question is really: "what is the something?". I appreciate the frustration, but the company are highly likely already two steps ahead of you in knowing "something" needs to be done. Unless they are quite foolish, they've probably tried multiple "somethings" already.

I think it's largely well known by now that the entire bus industry is suffering from severe shortages, not just of bus drivers, but of parts - especially anything electrical. How can a company get more parts faster, or get more drivers from somewhere? Do they remove drivers from a less frequent service in order to continue to provide a full service on the premium offering (which, if I recall, has a slower alternative)?

Out of the area for this thread, but twice on recent Sundays/bank holidays the half-hourly service [edit: on my local service] has been reduced to hourly after 11am because they've had an entire duty that couldn't be covered. On Saturday, two of the four buses were absent, meaning a half-hourly service on what should be very 15 minutes (and every 12 pre-Covid). This on one of the allegedly better paying routes at the depot, and after a significant increase in the hourly wage.

 

[cnjb8]

It does seem the Elites are very much struggling compared to other fleets, I think the best solution would be to order regular buses for the service (hopefully not E200MMCs)

 

[EnviroExplorer]

I seem to recall the Elites have ZF 6-speed transmission as opposed to the I-shift or similar setups you find on most modern coaches. This may be part of the reliability issues, as the Oxford X90 (cascaded to Carousel and Go North East) have this same setup and also suffered with reliability issues.

At some point I did read a local enthusiast state that new coaches were on order, but have nothing to back this up with. What is known is new buses are coming for The Threes to replace the similarly unreliable Versas, one of which caught fire. To help minimise the impact, heritage 2002 Solo 462 has recently been put back into service !

See the 3rd April 2023 update under Wellglade Group for source of new Threes Buses - http://www.derbybusdepot.co.uk/

 

[liamf656]

The reliability of the coaches is appalling at the moments. I don't know what the snswer is but something has to be done for what is meant to be a premium service.

The coaches have always struggled since leaving the factory. They’re not really built for short distance work with frequent stop starts. For comparison, imagine a Class 222 on the Matlock stopper all day every day. They used to take one or two of the coaches for a trip up to Meadowhall or Leicester just to stretch it’s legs and sometimes it worked, but in the past couple of years they really have fallen down on reliability.

It does seem the Elites are very much struggling compared to other fleets, I think the best solution would be to order regular buses for the service (hopefully not E200MMCs)

I don’t want it to turn speculative so I’ll keep it short and simple. My answer would be Volvo B8RLE Plaxton Panthers then the coaches sold

At some point I did read a local enthusiast state that new coaches were on order, but have nothing to back this up with. What is known is new buses are coming for The Threes to replace the similarly unreliable Versas, one of which caught fire. To help minimise the impact, heritage 2002 Solo 462 has recently been put back into service !

Unfortunately the new bus order for Red Arrow was just hearsay and isn’t actually happening. The only brand new vehicles planned are 18 for the Threes and two spares for Sutton. Despite what enthusiasts say 462 was never withdrawn, after mechanics at Sutton said that they were optimistic in getting it back on the road, albeit after a few months

 

[BJames]

Without wishing to sound facetious, the question is really: "what is the something?". I appreciate the frustration, but the company are highly likely already two steps ahead of you in knowing "something" needs to be done. Unless they are quite foolish, they've probably tried multiple "somethings" already.

I think it's largely well known by now that the entire bus industry is suffering from severe shortages, not just of bus drivers, but of parts - especially anything electrical. How can a company get more parts faster, or get more drivers from somewhere? Do they remove drivers from a less frequent service in order to continue to provide a full service on the premium offering (which, if I recall, has a slower alternative)?

Out of the area for this thread, but twice on recent Sundays/bank holidays the half-hourly service [edit: on my local service] has been reduced to hourly after 11am because they've had an entire duty that couldn't be covered. On Saturday, two of the four buses were absent, meaning a half-hourly service on what should be very 15 minutes (and every 12 pre-Covid). This on one of the allegedly better paying routes at the depot, and after a significant increase in the hourly wage.

It does indeed have two alternatives - but indigo takes approx 75 minutes and i4 takes about 70 so it is quite a lot slower. There is, of course, EMR between Derby and Nottingham as an alternative, although this is less ideal if you are travelling between QMC and Derby for instance - while the Red Arrow takes 25 minutes the i4 takes 60. Not that this takes away from the rest of your point of course, but just out of interest.

 

[AY1975]

OK, having tried the new Wayfarer arrangements today here‘s my thoughts / advice.

I think the potential for confusion (and thus for being penalised by the railway) has been increased by there now being two products named Wayfarer - one that is bus only, and another that is valid on bus and train. I bought my Wayfarer [for bus and train] today on a local bus and the ticket I managed to get the driver to give me - after first being offered other options that were cheaper [and presumably bus only] - was issued / printed “Derbys Wayfarer Bus and Train”. Clearly there is another (cheaper) ticket that is valid only on buses. When I boarded an EMR train the guard said “oh, that’s what they look like”. Clearly it will take a while to bed in but train guards will undoubtedly be looking for a ticket that mentions Train. If you buy one that is only valid on buses, be prepared for there to be a problem, even if there is a little leeway granted initially (and I am not suggesting that there will be).

The Derbyshire County website seems to imply that the new bus only Wayfarer is available either as a paper ticket bought on the bus or with a South Yorkshire Travelmaster smartcard, but it doesn't make this entirely clear. I expect some drivers will get asked for them (or indeed for a bus and rail Wayfarer) but not know how to issue them, especially on routes in the less touristy parts of Derbyshire. It also assumes that all participating operators' buses are equipped with smartcard readers, although I presume most if not all are so that they can read concessionary passes.

 

[Contains Nuts]

The Derbyshire County website seems to imply that the new bus only Wayfarer is available either as a paper ticket bought on the bus or with a South Yorkshire Travelmaster smartcard, but it doesn't make this entirely clear. I expect some drivers will get asked for them (or indeed for a bus and rail Wayfarer) but not know how to issue them, especially on routes in the less touristy parts of Derbyshire. It also assumes that all participating operators' buses are equipped with smartcard readers, although I presume most if not all are so that they can read concessionary passes.

The bus only Wayfarer is available as both a paper ticket and smartcard.

 

[ALEMASTER]

The day and week tickets are available to buy online as smart card products from https://www.sytravelmaster.com/derbyshire

Day tickets are available to buy from bus drivers as paper tickets, presumably also set up to fulfil to smart card if customers prefer given that the machines will have to be set up to accept them but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[tom1649]

There are some further changes to Peak District services from 28 May only just posted on the Derbyshird County Council website

216/217/M1/M4 Matlock area services - renumbered 157/158/159/160 with the Matlock town routes gaining a Saturday service.

That means the Matlock town services have reverted to the same numbering they had until September 2001. Someone at DCC has a long memory!

 

[station_road]

The Derbyshire County website seems to imply that the new bus only Wayfarer is available either as a paper ticket bought on the bus or with a South Yorkshire Travelmaster smartcard, but it doesn't make this entirely clear. I expect some drivers will get asked for them (or indeed for a bus and rail Wayfarer) but not know how to issue them, especially on routes in the less touristy parts of Derbyshire. It also assumes that all participating operators' buses are equipped with smartcard readers, although I presume most if not all are so that they can read concessionary passes.

I bought one on a Trentbarton bus in Derby last week and the driver had to search through the menu but found it okay, and had no problems when using it during the day (including Bakewell to Sheffield where I wasn't sure if ivalid, but the driver said it was).

 

[liamf656]

I wasn't sure if ivalid, but the driver said it was).

A very good thing about it is that you can use it to Sheffield as long as you board within Derbyshire, and vice versa. The same goes for the original ticket which includes rail services. Same also goes for Burton on Trent and Uttoxeter (but you cannot travel between the two)

 

[Skymonster]

My experience since my last post on this topic - during which time I have used Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets on a number of occasions - is that acceptance [beyond reluctance on the part of one Cross Country guard] is good. Most bus drivers only issue them rarely though. The biggest issue I see now is that there are so many Wayfarers (original, original group, original young person, original senior, bus only concession, bus only group, bus only seven days…) that one needs to be careful to ensure the driver issues the correct one. Knowing the price of the product you want to buy sometimes helps guide the driver to the appropriate entry on their systems.

 

[darloscott]

My experience since my last post on this topic - during which time I have used Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets on a number of occasions - is that acceptance [beyond reluctance on the part of one Cross Country guard] is good. Most bus drivers only issue them rarely though. The biggest issue I see now is that there are so many Wayfarers (original, original group, original young person, original senior, bus only concession, bus only group, bus only seven days…) that one needs to be careful to ensure the driver issues the correct one. Knowing the price of the product you want to buy sometimes helps guide the driver to the appropriate entry on their systems.

Second this - last time I was down there I tried to buy a group one from Hulleys. Between myself and the driver we did eventually find it!
Acceptance rarely has any issues I find

 

[Mwanesh]

I seem to recall the Elites have ZF 6-speed transmission as opposed to the I-shift or similar setups you find on most modern coaches. This may be part of the reliability issues, as the Oxford X90 (cascaded to Carousel and Go North East) have this same setup and also suffered with reliability issues.

At some point I did read a local enthusiast state that new coaches were on order, but have nothing to back this up with. What is known is new buses are coming for The Threes to replace the similarly unreliable Versas, one of which caught fire. To help minimise the impact, heritage 2002 Solo 462 has recently been put back into service !

See the 3rd April 2023 update under Wellglade Group for source of new Threes Buses - http://www.derbybusdepot.co.uk/

There is something seriously wrong with the set up on the Elites. Stagecoach Bedford had problems with their lot also. At one time half of them were parked up at Ely for rectification work. Plymouth had some problems with theirs also. Could it be the engines that are the problem.

 

[Smethwickian]

Same also goes for Burton on Trent and Uttoxeter (but you cannot travel between the two)

Yes you can on the 401 as it goes via a bit of Derbyshire.

 

[liamf656]

Yes you can on the 401 as it goes via a bit of Derbyshire.

My understanding is that either the boarding or alighting stage must be in Derbyshire. Most drivers won’t accept even as I’ve told them the same thing you’ve said

 

[ACBest]

Gem Mini Travel ceased operating the 367 between Newark, Collingham and Harby yesterday, which was one of former Newark-based operator Travel Wright's flagship routes.

Centrebus begin operation of the service tomorrow, which will continue to run to the same route and timetable as present, including the phone-a-bus section north of Collingham.

 

[43055]

Derby bus depot news reports that ex Mickleover E200's 107/108 are to head to Kinchbus to replace 733/739 which will in turn head back to trent. A quick look at bus times confirms this with 108 out on the sprint today in kinchbus livery.

 

[kevjs]

Nottingham City Transports first electric buses will enter service later this year on Red 50, Pink 30, and Blue 39

NCT's First Battery Electric Bus!

Introducing our first battery electric bus, fresh off the production line!

www.nctx.co.uk

NCT's First Battery Electric Bus!
Today Wed 31st May 2023

NCT first battery electric bus in the factory at China
Introducing our first battery electric, zero emission bus, fresh off the production line!

After our successful ZEBRA bid with Nottingham City Council, the first 12 Yutong single deck buses are now in build, destined for our Red 50, Pink 30 and Blue 39 routes at the end of the year.

These Yutong single decks are tried and tested, with 135,000 Yutong electric vehicles operating in 30 countries around the world, where they’ve covered a combined 22.5 billion miles!

They’ve been in the UK for a few years too, with operators in Glasgow, Newport and nearby Leicester speaking very favourably about their performance.

Able to run a full days service on a single charge, these zero-emission buses bring a host of improvements for customers too!

air conditioning as standard
re-positioned visual next stop screen, including a rear facing screen which can be seen from the wheelchair bay
extra leg room between seats
bigger buggy bay
hearing loop system fitted
no tip up seats in the wheelchair bay, which helps reduce conflict over use of the space
Infrastructure works also begin this week with contractors expected to start work on Turney Street carrying out the first steps to connect our Trent Bridge Garage to the National Grid.

Liam O’Brien, NCT’s Head of Engineering said, “Following a rigorous public procurement process and operational trials of several electric buses, Yutong Bus & Coach were a clear winner to deliver our first battery electric buses. The buses are superior in terms of range, space and comfort for passengers and have air conditioning as standard."

Ian Downie, Head of Yutong UK at Pelican Bus and Coach said, “We are absolutely delighted and honoured to have been awarded this contract to work in partnership with NCT. The vehicles will be fully completed at our family owned dealership in Castleford, and we look forward to supporting Nottingham on their zero emission journey”.

 

[STINT47]

Nottingham City Transports first electric buses will enter service later this year on Red 50, Pink 30, and Blue 39

NCT's First Battery Electric Bus!

Introducing our first battery electric bus, fresh off the production line!

www.nctx.co.uk

Interesting that the new buses will have air conditioning. NCT have always said that air con is not practical or suitable for this country when people have asked them about it in the past.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Interesting that the new buses will have air conditioning. NCT have always said that air con is not practical or suitable for this country when people have asked them about it in the past.

All Yutong buses come with air-conditioning as standard.

 

[edwin_m]

All Yutong buses come with air-conditioning as standard.

I'm speculating that they fit a heat pump primarily for heating in winter with minimum drain on the battery, and they can run it backwards to provide aircon in summer.

 

[BJames]

Interesting that the new buses will have air conditioning. NCT have always said that air con is not practical or suitable for this country when people have asked them about it in the past.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I don't understand what they mean by this? How can it not be practical or suitable for a bus to have air conditioning? Is this because of additional expense?

Buses in hot weather are not fun to be on in the slightest.

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I don't understand what they mean by this? How can it not be practical or suitable for a bus to have air conditioning? Is this because of additional expense?

Buses in hot weather are not fun to be on in the slightest.

Frequently Asked Questions

Got a question? We may already have the answer here!

www.nctx.co.uk

We specify the maximum number of opening windows possible. This is largely driven by bus window glass being manufactured in standard sizes and buses have to have some non-standard sized windows as dictated by the length and structure of the bus (which is heavily legislated).
Air conditioning isn't a feature we specify for environmental, economic and practical reasons. Just as in a car, air conditioning takes a substantial amount of energy out of the engine. The power needed to provide air conditioning in the customer area of the big buses we use would be so great that a larger engine would be required and bigger wheels to cope with the extra weight. This would consume more fuel, generate more emissions (Nottingham has been criticised for high emissions) and also reduce the number of seats for customers on the bus. As our British summers are only for a few weeks a year (if we’re lucky!) it is neither economically or environmentally viable to upgrade our fleet in this way.
On a practical level, air conditioning wouldn't work. With heavily used city buses like ours, which makes regular stops and open their doors frequently (unlike longer distance services and coaches that go some distance between stops, giving the air con the chance to do its job), air conditioning just wouldn’t work on a practical level. The cooler air would leave the bus every time people got on or off the bus and be replaced by the hotter external air.

This text doesn't menion biogas, so is probably several years out of date and I think they put out something similar as a press release during a heatwave some time ago.

The arithmetic may be a bit different if, as I suggested above, the electric buses use a heat pump system. This is needed anyway for heating in winter so there's no extra weight to speak of, and while there's still extra energy consumed running it in summer too, it's probably less cost with electricity than with diesel or biogas once efficiencies are taken into account. Daily operating ranges will be based on powering the heating in winter, so should also be able to power aircon in summer.

 

[kevjs]

Frequently Asked Questions

Got a question? We may already have the answer here!

www.nctx.co.uk

This text doesn't menion biogas, so is probably several years out of date and I think they put out something similar as a press release during a heatwave some time ago.

The arithmetic may be a bit different if, as I suggested above, the electric buses use a heat pump system. This is needed anyway for heating in winter so there's no extra weight to speak of, and while there's still extra energy consumed running it in summer too, it's probably less cost with electricity than with diesel or biogas once efficiencies are taken into account. Daily operating ranges will be based on powering the heating in winter, so should also be able to power aircon in summer.

I presume on a fossil fuel bus (like cars) the "heating" is otherwise waste heat from the engine so effectively "free" in weight (aside from some extra radiator ducting) and energy, where as Air Con would add weight and consume more fuel, which has never been considered a worthwhile trade off for a few weeks a year.

However, once you switch to EV there is not enough usable waste heat from the motors to use that to heat the passenger saloon, so you need to provide additional heating to make it acceptable in winter, and the most efficient way to do that is with a heat pump - a air to air heat pump basically being an air conditioner operating in reverse, so providing air conditioning is "free" in summer.

 

[edwin_m]

I presume on a fossil fuel bus (like cars) the "heating" is otherwise waste heat from the engine so effectively "free" in weight (aside from some extra radiator ducting) and energy, where as Air Con would add weight and consume more fuel, which has never been considered a worthwhile trade off for a few weeks a year.

However, once you switch to EV there is not enough usable waste heat from the motors to use that to heat the passenger saloon, so you need to provide additional heating to make it acceptable in winter, and the most efficient way to do that is with a heat pump - a air to air heat pump basically being an air conditioner operating in reverse, so providing air conditioning is "free" in summer.

That's what I'm presuming too, but would be good if someone could confirm it - or tell us we're talking rubbish!

 

[STINT47]

Nottingham City Transport says that air conditioning doesn't work when people open the windows so why not keep them locked?

This also applies in winter where the heating has to work harder because some idiot opens the windows when it minus 2.

The bus industry really does need to move into this century with buses heated/cooled to a set temperature.