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I’m unsure what you’re trying to argue here, are you trying to argue LNER are lying when they say it is revenue neutral?
Otherwise there are winners and losers. Winners are those travelling one-way, or travelling in the peak one way and off-peak in the other. Losers are those travelling in the shoulder peak both ways. Swings and roundabouts. Single leg pricing is fairer, you pay for what you use.
I’d agree that peak time restrictions out of London are extracting the Michael, but that’s the same even with the old Off-Peak ticket, which was staggeringly bad value for the additional validity it gave. £80 to leave at 6pm instead of 7pm? I’d rather get food and wait.
Other big losers are people who recoup significant amounts of their ticket costs by fraudulently claiming delay repay (you just need one big delay in a month!), and people who invest large amounts of time and knowledge in finding their way around the arcane fares system.
The old way of calculating a SVS as a pound cheaper than a return was absolutely horrible but its existence was rarely challenged.
The vast majority of passengers will not care about all this academic debate which misses the point for the average punter who wishes to invest no time at all in learning how fares work. They just want simple fares they can understand when they go into a journey planner. Single leg pricing does that. It’s fairer and easier.
If you charge people more to travel one-way, that makes it easier to offer a cheaper return than you would otherwise be able to because you don't need to raise as much money from returning travellers. The more you charge for the one-way trip, the cheaper you can make the return fare.
you are trying to get a fixed total amount of revenue; and
pricing does not affect behaviour
In practice the train operator is trying to maximise revenue [under the rules], and pricing does affect behaviour - indeed the proponents of single leg pricing say that it will increase usage of the railways. Proponents of cheaper returns say that that increases usage.
How does this look on Huddersfield-London fares (where fares set by both LNER and Avanti are available, with similar journey times)?
The current fares shown on brfares are already confusing enough, with Any Permitted fares sometimes being less than those Via Manchester.
Otherwise there are winners and losers. Winners are those travelling one-way, or travelling in the peak one way and off-peak in the other. Losers are those travelling in the shoulder peak both ways. Swings and roundabouts. Single leg pricing is fairer, you pay for what you use.
True. There is the 4% rise, but we don't know they wouldn't otherwise have got that by playing with Advance quotas or a bigger rise next January so that may be a bit moot.
I’d agree that peak time restrictions out of London are extracting the Michael, but that’s the same even with the old Off-Peak ticket, which was staggeringly bad value for the additional validity it gave. £80 to leave at 6pm instead of 7pm? I’d rather get food and wait.
Same. That Nando's at Euston is very useful! (I've had a "cheeky Nando's" and waited for Super Off Peak time when the difference was a couple of quid, don't need much of an excuse )
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How does this look on Huddersfield-London fares (where fares set by both LNER and Avanti are available, with similar journey times)?
The current fares shown on brfares are already confusing enough, with Any Permitted fares sometimes being less than those Via Manchester.
I suspect we'll end up with "Via Peterborough" on the LNER ones in order to avoid anomalies, which is a shame as until other TOCs move to the same policy (so you'd just buy a single via the desired route) this is a loss of flexibility. It really should have been rolled out across all TOCs at once, not just LNER.
Of course the more expensive "via Manchester" single would become valid via Peterborough and thus become a de-facto Any Permitted, unlike the situation from Edinburgh where the WCML is route Avanti and so isn't.
There is the 4% rise, but we don't know they wouldn't otherwise have got that by playing with Advance quotas or a bigger rise next January so that may be a bit moot.
The main mechanism by which the new higher fares increase yield is by lifting the caps on the Advance prices. LNER have been saying for a while that the old Off Peak and now the new Super Off Peak is constraining yield. VTEC actually managed to leak that in their business plan.
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British Rail clearly assumed that introducing the Saver ticket as a compulsory return (and therefore making the single more than 50% of the price of the return) would increase revenue more than simply cutting single fares, which they could have done instead.
You keep using this example from over 40 years ago, but it really doesn't mean what you think it means. The fact that GWR and Avanti West Coast manage fine with their yield but charge substantially less per mile than these new fares at their Off Peak / Super Off Peak rates is rather evidence of that.
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Even on those operators people doing triangular or multi-modal journeys or are penalised, especially if one of the singles they need is not priced by them.
I could say exactly the same about LNER though, because LNER's rates are higher and they haven't moved to singles on all routes. Also the other parallel operators aren't going to be moving to all singles any time soon, so this will continue to be the case.
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that’s the same even with the old Off-Peak ticket, which was staggeringly bad value for the additional validity it gave. £80 to leave at 6pm instead of 7pm? I’d rather get food and wait.
I guess that's because they can't increase the fare outside of a fares round, whereas the Durham fare has been reduced. But I think we can see what will happen at the next fares round.
The main mechanism by which the new higher fares increase yield is by lifting the caps on the Advance prices. LNER have been saying for a while that the old Off Peak and now the new Super Off Peak is constraining yield. VTEC actually managed to leak that in their business plan.
The ECML Super Off Peak is not new. It is the direct descendent of the BR Saver.
The ECML Off Peak is the descendent of GNER's Business Saver (BVS/BVR).
This is different from the WCML, where the Off Peak was the Saver and the Super Off Peak is a new addition mostly only offered on flows that directly compete with WMT and Chiltern but also on a few others.
The ECML Super Off Peak is not new. It is the direct descendent of the BR Saver.
The ECML Off Peak is the descendent of GNER's Business Saver (BVS/BVR).
This is different from the WCML, where the Off Peak was the Saver and the Super Off Peak is a new addition mostly only offered on flows that directly compete with WMT and Chiltern but also on a few others.
Out of interest, have LNER actually said this? If they have they are lying, or if they said it a while ago, that was before the price rise was planned. Back when the only increase was planned to be the 5.9% annual increase, it was expected to be either revenue neutral or revenue positive:
All tickets will be sold on a ‘single-leg’ basis – with many one-way fares almost halved in price
www.independent.co.uk
Will fares go up or down?
Mostly downwards, with single fares almost halved – to exactly half the current return fare. People who routinely make return journeys should notice no difference (except the annual fare increase, this year 5.9 per cent).
The move is hoped to be “revenue-neutral,” ie the total raised from travellers remains the same – or “revenue-positive” if, as hoped, more people are attracted to the railway.
Given that the fares have now increased and clearly more and more people are attracted to use long distance ECML services (across all relevant TOCs) and this shows no sign of slowing down, it is absolutely clear that it will be revenue positive, as although a few people will pay less, many people will be paying more and there will be more and more passengers using the railway (despite many people being priced of it; potential demand far outstrips supply at busy periods by a huge margin)
Swings and roundabouts. Single leg pricing is fairer, you pay for what you use.
I’d agree that peak time restrictions out of London are extracting the Michael, but that’s the same even with the old Off-Peak ticket, which was staggeringly bad value for the additional validity it gave. £80 to leave at 6pm instead of 7pm? I’d rather get food and wait.
If we had genuine single leg pricing by halving the current fares, it would be just under £108 to depart at 1800, however under the regime which you are defending/endorsing, it's £160 at 1800. Yes people can wait until 1900 to get it down to £68, but what if you want to depart at 1500? If Off Peak existed, you'd have a very wide selection of trains priced at £108, but now you have to wait 4 hours until the price drops below £160. How can you justify this?
Just to be clear, in case you've lost sight of the argument, although many people don't appreciate the loss of break of journey rights and the ease of purchasing an "open" return, the reality is that the vast majority of people would support genuine single leg pricing if it meant that return fares were exactly halved (as promised/advertised); the reasons many of us are objecting to LNER's actions is that they have increased the cost of already overpriced fares by a further 4.5% on top of the recent fare rise of a couple of months ago; as @Starmill points out, even though Avanti's single fares cost more proportionally compared to returns, they are still cheaper than LNERs! And they are often less restricted too! In addition to this fare increase, they have hugely increased the cost of shoulder peak travel by abolishing the Off Peak fare, meaning people now pay £160 just for London to York/Leeds, even to depart at times such as 1500 or 1850, which is absolutely scandlous.
The more people defend LNER, the more determined I am to continue arguing against these changes; if you want to agree to disagree, that's fine, but I am not backing down. I don't buy these overpriced fares do it doesn't affect me, but unlike some people, I am not arguing for my own interests.
The ECML Super Off Peak is not new. It is the direct descendent of the BR Saver.
The ECML Off Peak is the descendent of GNER's Business Saver (BVS/BVR).
This is different from the WCML, where the Off Peak was the Saver and the Super Off Peak is a new addition mostly only offered on flows that directly compete with WMT and Chiltern but also on a few others.
Out of interest, have LNER actually said this? If they have they are lying, or if they said it a while ago, that was before the price rise was planned. Back when the only increase was planned to be the 5.9% annual increase, it was expected to be either revenue neutral or revenue positive:
I asked earlier for someone to point me to a statement by a Minister, RDG or LNER that this shortly forthcoming revision has been designed to be "revenue neutral" - but nobody could.
Find the right ticket for your journey and our savings and rewards
www.lner.co.uk
Simpler Tickets. Better Value
We're making it easier to buy the cheapest ticket for your journey.
From 11 June, after a successful trial, we're removing return tickets from most LNER journeys. Our simplified tickets will make it easier to find the best value ticket for your journey.
This new simplified ticket structure will allow customers to buy a single ticket for each leg of their journey. By removing the outdated practice where a single ticket can cost just a little less than a return ticket, giving customers better value fares, a return journey would never cost more than two single tickets.
Single tickets will also help reduce overcrowding, making more seat reservations available for those that want one
Please note, you will still see and be able to purchase return tickets available for other train operators, as well as a small number of LNER journeys.
Typical LNER spin to say a 10% fare rise* in 3 months is "better value"!
It may "help reduce overcrowding" if fewer people travel as a result, but in reality it won't make any measurable difference, as most people have no viable alternative and even Super Off Peak fares (for most flows) are well beyond the reach of the average person, who has to treat LNER as if it were an airline, and be tied to a specific train (which is what LNER want).
Who comes up with this stuff? They need to get a new PR person! Or maybe not, as the average person will be hoodwinked into just believing what they say; perhaps it's deemed better for companies to mislead people in the hope that they don't get called out for it these days? It won't wash here though!
(* It's much more than a 10% increase for "shoulder peak" journeys, as I demonstrated above, e.g. York to London at "Off Peak" times e.g. 0901 from York /1500 & 1830 from London, goes up from around £215 return to £160 each way! )
The severe increases for "shoulder peak" travel will particularly impact those "hybrid" workers, working from home for part of the week.
When getting to the office for normal hours sees a hybrid worker require paying at least 85% of the cost of an Anytime ticket, some accommodating employers reportedly allow time-shifted working on the in-the-office days to allow their workers to travel on off-peak tickets. Few are going to extend that indulgence to arrival from the first Super-Offpeak train.
The severe increases for "shoulder peak" travel will particularly impact those "hybrid" workers, working from home for part of the week.
When getting to the office for normal hours sees a hybrid worker require paying at least 85% of the cost of an Anytime ticket, some accommodating employers reportedly allow time-shifted working on the in-the-office days to allow their workers to travel on off-peak tickets. Few are going to extend that indulgence to arrival from the first Super-Offpeak train.
I got an email from LNER about this. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I checked tickets between Doncaster and York and it is showing off peak day single as £21.30, and return is £21.40.
If the return is scrapped then would this journey not end up costing an extra £21.20?
I got an email from LNER about this. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I checked tickets between Doncaster and York and it is showing off peak day single as £21.30, and return is £21.40.
If the return is scrapped then would this journey not end up costing an extra £21.20!
I got an email from LNER about this. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I checked tickets between Doncaster and York and it is showing off peak day single as £21.30, and return is £21.40.
If the return is scrapped then would this journey not end up costing an extra £21.20!
York to Doncaster/Retford/Northallerton/Darlington still have the old style pricing.
For a single journey, York to Newark is now going to be cheaper than York to Retford; York to Durham beats York to Darlington (but you're much better off taking TPE)
This ensures tickets are "simple" and allows you to "buy with confidence".
I got an email from LNER about this. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I checked tickets between Doncaster and York and it is showing off peak day single as £21.30, and return is £21.40.
If the return is scrapped then would this journey not end up costing an extra £21.20!
For a single journey, York to Newark is now going to be cheaper than York to Retford; York to Durham beats York to Darlington (but you're much better off taking TPE)
This ensures tickets are "simple" and allows you to "buy with confidence".
Farcical, I have no idea how LNER think they will be able to spin their way out of the inevitable headlines without looking like complete idiots and/or scammers.
According to the FAQs : "We know from your feedback that choosing rail tickets can be confusing. So for us at LNER, it is important to make choosing rail tickets simpler for everyone". Of course they know no such thing and, despite it apparently being "important", are they are not making things simpler for everyone.
York to Doncaster/Retford/Northallerton/Darlington still have the old style pricing.
For a single journey, York to Newark is now going to be cheaper than York to Retford; York to Durham beats York to Darlington (but you're much better off taking TPE)
This ensures tickets are "simple" and allows you to "buy with confidence".
The only thing you can be confident of, is that you cannot have any confidence that you are getting the best price!
Of course this rather undermines LNER's claim that they are doing this to "simplify" things. They (or rather, the government) don't want to put their money where their mouth is by offering singles at half the cost of day return tickets, probably because they know this would lead to huge splitting opportunities.
Farcical, I have no idea how LNER think they will be able to spin their way out of the inevitable headlines without looking like complete idiots and/or scammers.
Single leg pricing is certainly simpler - you pay for each journey made rather than paying for 2 journeys even if you are only going 1 way (with singles priced at nearly the same price as a return).
There are instances where it's not simpler. For example, if you're making a return journey and buying a ticket at the station or the ticket machine, you're then making two transactions instead of one. Also, for business travel it can be slightly more complicated to claim for two single tickets over a return. On the expense system my employer uses I can use a single row and make one upload for a return ticket, if it's two single tickets then it needs two rows and an upload for both transactions.
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One thing that surprised me when I had a meal in an independent cafe just off Euston Square and asked for a receipt, they printed off a generic receipt and then used an old fashioned ink stamp to stamp it with their name, address and VAT number. I suspect that is because a number of people eat there who need a VAT receipt to claim it back on business expenses.
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It won't wash here though!
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