Penalty fare queries

[unnn0]

Hi,

I was travelling via West Midlands Railway with discounted tickets (discounted under 16-25 railcard) and I didn't realise that it was a discounted one when I bought it via Trainline. So when the inspector came, scanned and check my tickets, I failed to show him a railcard as I didn't have one and I paid penalties for it. He didn't ask for any of my details, but only paid £58.70. I am not sure if this is a penalty fare where you pay £50+the train fare as I originally paid £12.50 for the trip. It was a single trip ticket (not return ticket). He asked me if I'm fine with him reporting to the digital fraud team? (I don't really remember the correct name but I guess it's the company's team that investigates such penalty cases) and I replied yes. Now I am afraid that I might be prosecuted.

Does paying the penalty closes the case and will not be investigated or contacted further? I am aware that I made a mistake and definitely will check if I have chosen the discounted ticket option before purchasing in the future, and I am willing to pay the penalties but I don't want it to be taken to the court or leave a criminal record cuz I am an international student and it might affect my visa or future jobs in uk.

And I also have a problem which I purchased the discounted train tickets without realising for 3 times previously. Will the team check back my purchase history and prosecute me for making these mistakes? I can only explain that the Trainline app automatically checked the railcard option and I didn't really pay attention to it when I was purchasing. I am willing to pay any costs regarding this as it was all my fault and I regret not being careful when buying the tickets.

 

[Watershed]

Hi,

I was travelling via London Northwestern Railway with discounted tickets (discounted under 16-25 railcard) and I didn't realise that it was a discounted one when I bought it via Trainline. So when the inspector came, scanned and check my tickets, I failed to show him a railcard as I didn't have one and I paid penalties for it. He didn't ask for any of my details, but only paid £58.70. I am not sure if this is a penalty fare where you pay £50+the train fare as I originally paid £12.50 for the trip. It was a single trip ticket (not return ticket). He asked me if I'm fine with him reporting to the digital fraud team? (I don't really remember the correct name but I guess it's the company's team that investigates such penalty cases) and I replied yes. Now I am afraid that I might be prosecuted.

Does paying the penalty closes the case and will not be investigated or contacted further? I am aware that I made a mistake and definitely will check if I have chosen the discounted ticket option before purchasing in the future, and I am willing to pay the penalties but I don't want it to be taken to the court or leave a criminal record cuz I am an international student and it might affect my visa or future jobs in uk.

And I also have a problem which I purchased the discounted train tickets without realising for 3 times previously. Will the team check back my purchase history and prosecute me for making these mistakes? I can only explain that the Trainline app automatically checked the railcard option and I didn't really pay attention to it when I was purchasing. I am willing to pay any costs regarding this as it was all my fault and I regret not being careful when buying the tickets.

Where were you travelling from and to? This may enable us to work out if £58.70 equates to the cost of a new Anytime Single. This would be the usual penalty for failing to produce a required Railcard if you are merely encountered by the conductor, rather than a member of revenue protection staff.

Can you share a photo/scan of any documentation/tickets you were given (with any reference numbers, names etc. redacted for your own privacy)?

 

[unnn0]

I just realised I was travelling via West Midlands Railway not LNR, and the ticket given after penalty has the word Anytime Single on it as in the picture attached. I travelled from London Euston to Coventry, and I guess they might have double the anytime single price then?

 

[Watershed]

I just realised I was travelling via West Midlands Railway not LNR, and the ticket given after penalty has the word Anytime Single on it as in the picture attached. I travelled from London Euston to Coventry, and I guess they might have double the anytime single price then?

Ok, it looks like the conductor simply sold you a new Anytime Single, which costs £58.70.

West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern Railway are both brands of the same company (West Midlands Trains). Services from London to Coventry are branded London Northwestern, but it's a moot point really.

It's likely that this is the end of the matter, unless the conductor happened to report you to their Revenue Protection department. I'd create a new account or ideally even use a completely different retailer for future purchases, to avoid your history being dug up.

Remember that The Trainline operates many train operators' websites and apps, including WMR/LNR, CrossCountry etc., and their systems are linked in the backend).

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I think it would be quite hard to bring any kind of case against you given that you purchased a new ticket…from my limited understanding it’s a case of new ticket, penalty fare or TIR (reported to company for investigation)
Happy to be corrected but I don’t think you can face more than one of the above

Just for reference if that ticket is all you were issued it is not a fine, just a full priced single ticket

 

[unnn0]

It's likely that this is the end of the matter, unless the conductor happened to report you to their Revenue Protection department. I'd create a new account or ideally even use a completely different retailer for future purchases, to avoid your history being dug up.

Remember that The Trainline operates many train operators' websites and apps, including WMR/LNR, CrossCountry etc., and their systems are linked in the backend).

Thank you for the suggestion to create a new account or using different retailer. Do you have any recommendations for other retailers? Also, do you reckon the conductor saying reporting to digital fraud team is related to the revenue protection department? I'm worried sick that they might dig up my purchase history and take them to the prosecution stage. Fyi, the three previous purchases with railcard were all from different operator: West Midlands Train, Avanti West Coast and CrossCountry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==

I think it would be quite hard to bring any kind of case against you given that you purchased a new ticket…from my limited understanding it’s a case of new ticket, penalty fare or TIR (reported to company for investigation)
Happy to be corrected but I don’t think you can face more than one of the above

Just for reference if that ticket is all you were issued it is not a fine, just a full priced single ticket

Could I possibly be additionally fined later onwards if this was just a full priced single ticket? Does it mean that the ticket includes the penalty charge already? Also, could TIR lead to prosecution or digging up my purchase history?

 

[P Binnersley]

Section 9.2 of the Conditions of Carriage

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or
9.2.2 To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below); or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.

(my bold)

By selling an anytime single ticket (9.2.1) the railway has closed off the options of a penalty fare or referring you for prosecution in this case (You were not charged a penalty).

As you have purchased other reduced tickets without a railcard this could be flagged up if you come to their attention again so, as recommended by Watershed, its is best to set up a new account.

 

[unnn0]

Section 9.2 of the Conditions of Carriage


(my bold)

By selling an anytime single ticket (9.2.1) the railway has closed off the options of a penalty fare or referring you for prosecution in this case (You were not charged a penalty).

As you have purchased other reduced tickets without a railcard this could be flagged up if you come to their attention again so, as recommended by Watershed, its is best to set up a new account.

I see, this does make me relieve now. Do you reckon it will be more safer to use a totally different ticket retailer/app or should it be fine by just setting up a new account?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

By selling an anytime single ticket (9.2.1) the railway has closed off the options of a penalty fare or referring you for prosecution in this case (You were not charged a penalty).

As you have purchased other reduced tickets without a railcard this could be flagged up if you come to their attention again so, as recommended by Watershed, its is best to set up a new account.

This is what I was getting but was only a quick reply without time to gather the quotes…glad someone else was able to clarify for you!

Also, do you reckon the conductor saying reporting to digital fraud team is related to the revenue protection department?

Generally, digital fraud/revenue protection etc are all headed up into 1 big department with sub ones (often referred to as DRPU at a lot of tocs) digital fraud, investigators, prosecutors, revenue teams, guard/conductors (to a certain level) and many others all play a part or send in information

 

[unnn0]

This is what I was getting but was only a quick reply without time to gather the quotes…glad someone else was able to clarify for you!

Thank you, I do appreciate that!

Generally, digital fraud/revenue protection etc are all headed up into 1 big department with sub ones (often referred to as DRPU at a lot of tocs) digital fraud, investigators, prosecutors, revenue teams, guard/conductors (to a certain level) and many others all play a part or send in information

I hope they don't link my previous purchases to prosecute me cuz I'm not sure if they will accept my explanation that I bought the reduced tickets unintentionally if they ask for any reasons or proof...

 

[AlterEgo]

I see, this does make me relieve now. Do you reckon it will be more safer to use a totally different ticket retailer/app or should it be fine by just setting up a new account?

I don’t see how setting up a new account is helpful at all, unless you plan on buying more invalid tickets.

The point is, your previous purchases can be audited anyway whether you continue to make bookings or not.

 

[unnn0]

I don’t see how setting up a new account is helpful at all, unless you plan on buying more invalid tickets.

The point is, your previous purchases can be audited anyway whether you continue to make bookings or not.

I guess it's just a way that gives me extra safe protection in case I make any unexpected mistakes and penalty payments. Of course I do not plan to buy invalid tickets when I am so worried of getting involved in legal actions. It's just that I have another trauma of unexpectedly buying a new ticket on the train previously because I hopped on to the wrong train operator. It was when I first came to UK and unfamiliar with local train operating system. I missed the WMT train I originally bought because there were too many people until I had no space to even make my step into the train. The train station staff then told me and other people who couldn't get on the train that we can get on the next train even though it was a Avanti train. And when the inspector asked to show our tickets, he asked for us to pay for a new ticket. Me and two other people argued that it was the station staff's fault to misguide us on a wrong train but he still demanded for another payment and I had to pay for it. I complained through the WMT customer service but they only gave me a reply to get a refund for the original ticket I bought but they didn't mention that I can get refunded for the Avanti ticket which was double the price of WMT. In fact, the inspector did not continued to inspect other people's tickets and there were many people who bought the previous train same as me but they didn't get penalised... Who knows some similar situations might happen again when it's not my fault and I get flagged up.

As you have purchased other reduced tickets without a railcard this could be flagged up if you come to their attention again so, as recommended by Watershed, its is best to set up a new account.

 

[gray1404]

If the person who sold you the new ticket did not take any of your details I am not sure how they could report you to the digital Fraud department. Although I do not get why they would ask such a question if they had not taken some details.

As you were sold a brand new tickets it may be possible for you to get a refund on the discounted ticket you incorrectly purchased from Trainline as that ticket is unused.

 

[AndroidBango]

I don’t see how setting up a new account is helpful at all, unless you plan on buying more invalid tickets.

The point is, your previous purchases can be audited anyway whether you continue to make bookings or not.

I agree with this - it might look as if you were hiding something, particularly if you use the same payment method on the new account as the old one.

 

[RPI]

Having multiple accounts won't stop TOC's investigating your booking history, best bet is to ensure you travel with a valid ticket every journey

 

[unnn0]

I agree with this - it might look as if you were hiding something, particularly if you use the same payment method on the new account as the old one.

Having multiple accounts won't stop TOC's investigating your booking history, best bet is to ensure you travel with a valid ticket every journey

I guess these make sense as well.

Thank you all for the help and advice, I do appreciate it!