Excessing Super Off Peak London Midland Only into Off Peak Any Permitted

[tom91]

I'm planning to get at Super Off-Peak Tamworth - London Return (LM Only) on Saturday. Coming back, the last train is at 1846, and there's a chance I won't make it. If I do miss it and have to get a VT train back, can I excess the return portion to an Off-Peak? What are the chances of the staff at Euston being able to do this? Am I correct in thinking I would pay half the difference between the OP Return and the SOP Return?

Thanks.

 

[fcot]

I am afraid excess from LM only tickets to Any Permitted isn't allowed therefore you would need to purchase a new any permitted single for the journey. It is to do with the way the fare is divided up between the tocs.

 

[wintonian]

But you can refund the origonal ticket wether you will get charged the admin fee I don't know.

 

[RJ]

I'm planning to get at Super Off-Peak Tamworth - London Return (LM Only) on Saturday. Coming back, the last train is at 1846, and there's a chance I won't make it. If I do miss it and have to get a VT train back, can I excess the return portion to an Off-Peak? What are the chances of the staff at Euston being able to do this? Am I correct in thinking I would pay half the difference between the OP Return and the SOP Return?

Thanks.

Depends where you go, I know for certain some staff won't do it.

 

[yorkie]

I'm planning to get at Super Off-Peak Tamworth - London Return (LM Only) on Saturday. Coming back, the last train is at 1846, and there's a chance I won't make it. If I do miss it and have to get a VT train back, can I excess the return portion to an Off-Peak?

You can excess the ticket type from Super Off Peak Rtn (OPR) to Off Peak Rtn (SVR), this is a change of ticket type excess, but this is not valid on Virgin as the route is LM Only.

You are asking for a change of route excess, which is different. You are not officially allowed to change the route from LM Only to Any Permitted. However some staff will do this, either out of kindness or because they've not been instructed not to. I do not know which staff will/won't, though.

For a change of route excess, the excess is to the appropriate ticket, so if you had a Rte High Wycombe OPR, and wanted to excess it to Rte Any Permitted, there is no OPR so the appropriate excess is to SVR (assuming travel at a time when the SVR is valid) and the difference, for change of route excess, is 50% of the difference (irrespective of whether the ticket type happens to change, that is incidental)

What are the chances of the staff at Euston being able to do this?

They are physically able to do it but may be instructed not to.

The rules for change of route excess are the same on board (if no barriers) however of course it's a lottery, so the guard may not excess and may charge a brand new ticket. It depends on the member of staff you approach and their training/instructions given to them

Am I correct in thinking I would pay half the difference between the OP Return and the SOP Return?

Thanks.

My recommendation is to avoid abbreviations for ticket types except for the official 3-letter codes (in this case SVR for Off Peak Return and OPR for Super Off Peak Return) to avoid even more confusion!

I also don't recommend confusing matters by taking about the difference between ticket types as it sounds like you are trying to change ticket type, which is a full difference excess! But you aren't; you're trying to change the route, which is a half difference excess. When changing the route, the ticket type may change depending on what is appropriate.

If you were to ask someone "Can I upgrade my Super Off Peak to an Off Peak?" you may then get them thinking in terms of a ticket type excess and if they enter that option on their Avantix you will be charged double.

As documented in many threads here (some recent), excessing is a lottery. Good luck is needed, but even more so in your case as you technically aren't entitled to that excess.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But you can refund the origonal ticket wether you will get charged the admin fee I don't know.

I don't think a refund is applicable where the outward portion has been used, and indeed a £10 admin fee would be payable (this can be waived depending on the mood of staff, and excuses given!)

 

[wintonian]

Indeed I was (perhaps wrongly) assuming the excess would be done before outwards travel commenced.

 

[island]

If you are able to convince someone to do the change of route excess, then my opinion would be that the ticket portion has to be first excessed from OPR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY to SVR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY (at full difference), then from SVR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY to SVR route ANY PERMITTED (at half difference).

However since there's a decent chance London Midland will be on strike when you come to use the ticket, you have a fighting chance of the ticket being passed by Virgin anyway!

 

[Mojo]

What are the rules on overnight stopovers on LM OPRs? I know no Break of Journey is allowed normally?

If allowed, it may be better for on the return the OP gets a £0 overdistance to Lichfield or Stafford and travels via Birmingham, and buys a £6.50 single BHM-TAM. The last connection is the 22.49 from BHM, which is the 21.17 from NMP, which is the 19.44 from EUS.

 

[island]

LM OPRs don't allow break of journey on either leg. However, it does not count as a break of journey if you (1) do not leave the station, (2) leave a station to join a train at another station, (3) go and stay in overnight accommodation where you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or (4) are following instructions of a TOC staff member.

Draw what interpretations you wish from this; I interpret (3) for what it's worth as applying only if your journey is so long or involves stations with such a limited service that you can't complete the journey, not if you just started out late. But as always, others' opinions (particularly the opinion of LM RPIs!) will vary.

 

[Mojo]

Update to my earlier post. The 21.17 from NMP will be cancelled tomorrow. Latest you can leave EUS to arrive in TAM travelling via BHM is 19.13.

Sorry for codes, on my phone.

 

[yorkie]

If you are able to convince someone to do the change of route excess, then my opinion would be that the ticket portion has to be first excessed from OPR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY to SVR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY (at full difference), then from SVR route LDN MIDLAND ONLY to SVR route ANY PERMITTED (at half difference).

Why?

The excess isn't allowed.

But if it was allowed it would be a change of route excess, to half the difference. When doing a change of route excess, the "appropriate" fare needs to be selected, in this case SVR.

 

[RJ]

Why?

The excess isn't allowed.

But if it was allowed it would be a change of route excess, to half the difference. When doing a change of route excess, the "appropriate" fare needs to be selected, in this case SVH.

SVHs can only be sold online, they're automatically barred from issuing on the TIS.

 

[First class]

SVHs can only be sold online, they're automatically barred from issuing on the TIS.

They are easy enough to sell on Merseyrail TIS...

 

[yorkie]

SVHs can only be sold online, they're automatically barred from issuing on the TIS.

No idea why I typed SVH, I meant SVR!

 

[island]

Why?

The excess isn't allowed.

But if it was allowed it would be a change of route excess, to half the difference. When doing a change of route excess, the "appropriate" fare needs to be selected, in this case SVR.

My understanding is that you can't excess a super off-peak return route X to an off-peak return route Any Permitted. If a super off-peak return fare existed for Any Permitted then you would certainly excess to that, and then to an off-peak if needed.

If we can't agree, the chances of ticket office staff and/or guards agreeing will be negligible in any case!

 

[RJ]

My understanding is that you can't excess a super off-peak return route X to an off-peak return route Any Permitted. If a super off-peak return fare existed for Any Permitted then you would certainly excess to that, and then to an off-peak if needed.

If we can't agree, the chances of ticket office staff and/or guards agreeing will be negligible in any case!

You're right, I don't agree to that. An SSR/OPR can be excessed to a more expensive return fare so long as neither is a TOC-specific fare. A Super Off Peak return London - Brum via High Wycombe can be excessed to an Off Peak/Anytime return route Any Permitted.

 

[island]

Given the prices OPR route HIGH WYCOMBE £19.50, SVR route HIGH WYCOMBE £33, and SVR route ANY PERMITTED £44.30, is the excess for one leg £12.40 or £19.15? If the former, then is that not circumventing the new excess rules that came in last September to stop people buying a more restrictive return and excessing it one way instead of buying a less restrictive single at the full price?

 

[RJ]

Given the prices OPR route HIGH WYCOMBE £19.50, SVR route HIGH WYCOMBE £33, and SVR route ANY PERMITTED £44.30, is the excess for one leg £12.40 or £19.15? If the former, then is that not circumventing the new excess rules that came in last September to stop people buying a more restrictive return and excessing it one way instead of buying a less restrictive single at the full price?

There's an Excess Fares Calculator on the NRE Knowledgebase site, should answer all questions

 

[wintonian]

There's an Excess Fares Calculator on the NRE Knowledgebase site, should answer all questions. Never got it to work with the browsers I use mind .

Link?

 

[barrykas]

The rule for an alternate route excess in one direction is that you charge HALF the difference between the price paid and the "appropriate" Return fare for the journey now being made. (Or the Single where that's cheaper, obviously).

So if you turn up at Euston with a route High Wycombe Super Off-Peak Return, at a time when Off-Peak Returns are valid, the excess would be (using current fares) half of £44.30 - £19.50, or £12.40.

Turn up at Euston at a time when Off-Peak Returns aren't valid, however, the excess would be half of £149.00 - £19.50, or £64.75, which is less than the £74.50 Anytime Single.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[RJ]

The rule for an alternate route excess in one direction is that you charge HALF the difference between the price paid and the "appropriate" Return fare for the journey now being made. (Or the Single where that's cheaper, obviously).

So if you turn up at Euston with a route High Wycombe Super Off-Peak Return, at a time when Off-Peak Returns are valid, the excess would be (using current fares) half of £44.30 - £19.50, or £12.40.

Turn up at Euston at a time when Off-Peak Returns aren't valid, however, the excess would be half of £149.00 - £19.50, or £64.75, which is less than the £74.50 Anytime Single.

Cheers,

Barry

Agreed.

 

[clagmonster]

There's an Excess Fares Calculator on the NRE Knowledgebase site, should answer all questions

Said website is no longer in the public domain.

I do agree with your calculations though.

 

[bnm]

There's an Excess Fares Calculator on the NRE Knowledgebase site, should answer all questions

Are you staff, RJ? If so, that is a pointless comment. Only answers questions for those that have access to it. Gonna provide those that don't have access with login details?

All your pointless comment appears to say is "I know something you don't" Absolutely no use whatsoever to the OP or other non staff following this thread.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding is that you can't excess a super off-peak return route X to an off-peak return route Any Permitted. If a super off-peak return fare existed for Any Permitted then you would certainly excess to that, and then to an off-peak if needed.

If we can't agree, the chances of ticket office staff and/or guards agreeing will be negligible in any case!

Where do you get that understanding from?

The rules say that when you do a change of route excess, you excess to the "appropriate" fare. Clearly, the appropriate fare is the Off Peak Return, surely?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the prices OPR route HIGH WYCOMBE £19.50, SVR route HIGH WYCOMBE £33, and SVR route ANY PERMITTED £44.30, is the excess for one leg £12.40 or £19.15? If the former, then is that not circumventing the new excess rules that came in last September to stop people buying a more restrictive return and excessing it one way instead of buying a less restrictive single at the full price?

The excess for change of route is half the difference, and the excess is to the appropriate fare.

I don't really want to be giving ATOC ideas for increasing that excess, although I believe it is dubious whether or not ATOC have the jurisdiction to massively increase excess fares anyway, and given ATOC's habit of making mistakes, I think no conclusion can be reached.

 

[island]

I see it as a change of ticket type and also a change of route, not just a change of route.

 

[RJ]

Gonna provide those that don't have access with login details?

There's no login for it.

 

[bnm]

There's no login for it.

K. URL then please.

 

[premier01]

K. URL then please.

I don't think it is or ever has been in the public domain-it's available to staff in the NRE contact centres and ticket offices-if it is available please post link.

 

[yorkie]

I see it as a change of ticket type and also a change of route, not just a change of route.

Change of route includes the facility to change ticket type, this is not uncommon, and it's in the instructions, that's what it means by to the "appropriate" fare, or "cheapest available ticket".

Change of Route

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 13, permits customers to travel by a different route, from the one stated on the ticket or allowed by conditions of the National Routeing Guide, to make their journey on payment of an Excess fare. The Excess fare is calculated as follows:

Single tickets

The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice

Return tickets - change of route in both directions

The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

Return tickets - change of route in one direction only

Half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

This example from The Manual proves that the ticket type can change with a change of route excess, unfortunately it is for a single, but the instructions above clearly state that for returns it's half the difference for one portion.

Example

A customer holds an Anytime Single from Hereford to Alton routed “not via London”. The customer wishes to travel via London on a day at a time when a Super Off-Peak Single is valid. If the customer does not wish to break their journey, they should be charged the difference between the fare already paid: Anytime Single (£38.50p) and the Super Off-Peak Single (£43). The Excess fare is £5·50. Note: This example is not necessarily the current fare.

It's a MYTH that the ticket type must be the same, indeed the ticket type can be whatever is appropriate.

Indeed, given how each TOC seems to do it's own thing, and have their own set of restrictions and ticket types for any given flow, it's quite possibly the case that more often than not the ticket type will change. This is co-incidental and has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that the excess - for change of route - is 50% of the difference.

 

[island]

Fair enough, colour me convinced. I just hope I never have to do this at WAT.