Could we see fast Southampton > Brighton services?

[paul1609]

Havant is probably the main interchange station in that area, having any services passing straight through would be limiting very useful interchange. I’ve thought Barnham should ideally have had four through platforms with overtakes taking place there. It can already be done in the down direction of course.

Barnham has reversible platforms since the resignalling so it can already be done in both directions.

 

[PGAT]

I think it can also be done at Hove, but I don't think it's practical given that Brighton is only 3 minutes away.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Chichester to Southampton is nowhere near half hourly at present despite being 2tph (both trains leave Soton 15 minutes apart due to pathing constraints on the Netley Line). If the Coastway was recast, perhaps you could have a half hourly Soton - Brighton service and a half hourly Pompey - London Vic service. It would sever some direct links but as a compromise allow both flows to have an evenly-spaced service with easy interchange onto one another at Chichester.

I think this is what GTR must be looking at. Modern Railways May 2023 page 57 has a table showing the loss of GTR Southern rolling stock since 2018. The class 313s are going and not being replaced so the only way to provide more rolling stock for one service is to take it from another service. Presumably "taking out excess capacity at the Western end of the route" means cut the Portsmouth and Southsea to Littlehampton service and reuse the rolling stock (3 car class 377s from this month) for an all stops service at the Brighton end. Not sure what else it could mean. Referring to Victoria to Southampton services "terminating these services further east" presumably means Portsmouth Harbour. I hope it does mean Portsmouth Harbour, if the turnaround time is increased and there are only two GTR trains to Portsmouth each hour there is no excuse to terminate any GTR trains in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea, both should go to Portsmouth Harbour to connect with the fastcat to Ryde and the Gosport Ferry. This would certainly make for a much better service to Gatwick Airport for people in Portsmouth, the Isle of Wight and Gosport though passengers from Southampton would have to change trains for Gatwick Airport, staying on the same platform at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. At least this would mean an end to GTR Southern trains terminating in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea and sharing a platform with the SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central trains. At present Monday to Friday most of the trains from Victoria to Portsmouth have been terminating in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea in addition to the trains from Littlehampton to Portsmouth which have always done this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

I think this is what GTR must be looking at. Modern Railways May 2023 page 57 has a table showing the loss of GTR Southern rolling stock since 2018. The class 313s are going and not being replaced so the only way to provide more rolling stock for one service is to take it from another service. Presumably "taking out excess capacity at the Western end of the route" means cut the Portsmouth and Southsea to Littlehampton service and reuse the rolling stock (3 car class 377s from this month) for an all stops service at the Brighton end. Not sure what else it could mean. Referring to Victoria to Southampton services "terminating these services further east" presumably means Portsmouth Harbour. I hope it does mean Portsmouth Harbour, if the turnaround time is increased and there are only two GTR trains to Portsmouth each hour there is no excuse to terminate any GTR trains in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea, both should go to Portsmouth Harbour to connect with the fastcat to Ryde and the Gosport Ferry. This would certainly make for a much better service to Gatwick Airport for people in Portsmouth, the Isle of Wight and Gosport though passengers from Southampton would have to change trains for Gatwick Airport, staying on the same platform at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. At least this would mean an end to GTR Southern trains terminating in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea and sharing a platform with the SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central trains. At present Monday to Friday most of the trains from Victoria to Portsmouth have been terminating in the bay platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea in addition to the trains from Littlehampton to Portsmouth which have always done this.

It would have been much better if the GTR staff quoted in the article had said explicitly how they were thinking of changing services rather than using coded terms leaving readers to guess what they are planning.

 

[blelic]

What exactly were the terms used in the article?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

explicitly how they were thinking of changing services rather than using coded terms leaving readers to guess what they are planning.

As in, did they discuss the Southampton services specifically, and if so what changes?

 

[weeklycommuter]

What exactly were the terms used in the article?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==


As in, did they discuss the Southampton services specifically, and if so what changes?

"The philosophy behind the putative changes will be to concentrate on improving services on the Brighton to Southampton core, taking out excess capacity at the western end of the route to help fund the improvements. Another ambition will be to make the timetable more resilient. For example, Victoria to Southampton services running along the coast have a fragile 10-minute turnaround at Southampton at present, so terminating these services further east is one idea under discussion."

 

[islandmonkey]

"The philosophy behind the putative changes will be to concentrate on improving services on the Brighton to Southampton core, taking out excess capacity at the western end of the route to help fund the improvements. Another ambition will be to make the timetable more resilient. For example, Victoria to Southampton services running along the coast have a fragile 10-minute turnaround at Southampton at present, so terminating these services further east is one idea under discussion."

Having to change at Barnham for a train to Gatwick isn't the end of the world. At the moment it's one of those 'nice things to have', but changing the status quo wouldn't be a massive inconvenience, provided one wouldn't be waiting for long.

My main desire in all these changes is for a faster Brighton service. Having to stop at North-south-east-west-southeast-southwest Worthing and How-many-stations-end-in-'on Sea' is kinda frustrating.

 

[JonathanH]

It would have been much better if the GTR staff quoted in the article had said explicitly how they were thinking of changing services rather than using coded terms leaving readers to guess what they are planning.

Arguably they have to use coded terms because the decision hasn't been made and they don't want to 'set hares running' by announcing, for example, the axing of the Victoria to Southampton service, in Modern Railways before consulting with user groups.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Having to change at Barnham for a train to Gatwick isn't the end of the world. At the moment it's one of those 'nice things to have', but changing the status quo wouldn't be a massive inconvenience, provided one wouldn't be waiting for long.

My main desire in all these changes is for a faster Brighton service. Having to stop at North-south-east-west-southeast-southwest Worthing and How-many-stations-end-in-'on Sea' is kinda frustrating.

This is the current list of station calls on route for the Southampton Central to Brighton train 1. Swanwick 2. Fareham 3. Cosham 4. Havant 5. Emsworth 6. Chichester (about the halfway point in distance, 6 out of 20 stations called at so far) 7. Barnham 8. Ford 9. Angmering 10. Goring by Sea 11. Durrington on Sea 12. West Worthing 13. Worthing 14. East Worthing 15. Lancing 16. Shoreham by Sea 17. Southwick 18. Fishersgate 19.Portslade 20.Hove
East of Chichester only Aldrington between Hove and Portslade and 15 minutes walk from Hove Station is not served by the Southampton Central to Brighton train Monday to Saturday but Aldrington too is served by this train on Sunday. The pre-pandemic Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton train served just Barnham, Angmering, Worthing, Lancing, Shoreham by Sea, Southwick, Portslade and Hove between Chichester and Brighton but with the end of the all stops Brighton to West Worthing trains the smaller footfall stations were all added to the Portsmouth Harbour and Southampton Central to Brighton train calls.

 

[blelic]

Would a service pattern of the following have potential for the West Coastway:

2tph BTN - SOU
2tph BTN - WWO all stations (Replacing the Hove shuttles)
2tph LIT - BOG
2tph VIC - BOG/PMH
2tph VIC - LIT

The SOU and PMH services could potentially work together for stops after Barnham, with each one having 1tph fast (Chichester, Emsworth, Havant), and 1tph most if not all stations for each. Not sure if that would actually work though.

This would likely use similar levels of rolling stock, whilst providing more direct journeys from Brighton, with the potential of a fast SOU service.

Obviously this would mean no connections to the Littlehampton service from Brighton, but I think it would be preferable to most to have the West Worthing services back again. Littlehampton and Bognor Regis would lose some level of connectivity, but the amount of trains per hour would stay the same. As far as I can tell it would be possible to operate the LIT-BOG 2tph service with just a single unit, and the WWO services would effectively use the two units released by this, with others likely staying similar so provided the paths can be worked out then surely that would be a big improvement for most.

 

[zwk500]

This seems a good time to flag up this document again: https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...ssex Connectivity Modular Strategic Study.pdf

The West Sussex CSMP, it's a bit old now but summaries the problems and potential interventions reasonably well.

 

[JonathanH]

The West Sussex CSMP, it's a bit old now but summaries the problems and potential interventions reasonably well.

It may well do, but what the West Coastway appears to be looking at now is a resource-led timetable that doesn't require any interventions.

I wonder whether this week's timetable, albeit with Victoria to Littlehampton services running, could be the reasonable basis for a future timetable.

 

[43074]

It may well do, but what the West Coastway appears to be looking at now is a resource-led timetable that doesn't require any interventions.

The new service pattern resembles what is suggested in the West Sussex Strategic Study though, so it still holds true more or less.

 

[miklcct]

No, unless the route is quadrupled.

It isn't simply feasible to mix fast / stopping traffic on a capacity-constrained 2-track railway without lots of passing places. The way to max out capacity on the West Coastway is to call all trains at all stations along the route.

Aldrington and Fishersgate should be closed or have a very limited service and passengers advised to use Hove and Portslade instead. The Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains should never call at Aldrington or Fishersgate. It makes no sense to slow down the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains by forcing them to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate when Hove and Portslade respectively are 15 minutes walk away. Even when the Brighton - West Worthing stoppers ran all day Monday to Saturday the Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton trains were forced to call at Aldrington and Fishersgate on Sunday.

These stations should receive more calls instead, i.e. all trains should call there all days from first to last train. The West Coastway should become a local metro line with short-distance intra-urban traffic the main priority, just like the West London Line or North London Line.

 

[zwk500]

No, unless the route is quadrupled.

It isn't simply feasible to mix fast / stopping traffic on a capacity-constrained 2-track railway without lots of passing places. The way to max out capacity on the West Coastway is to call all trains at all stations along the route.

Correct

These stations should receive more calls instead, i.e. all trains should call there all days from first to last train. The West Coastway should become a local metro line with short-distance intra-urban traffic the main priority, just like the West London Line or North London Line.

No, the inter-urban traffic along the coast from Brighton to Littlehampton and Chichester is significant, not to mention the sizeable flows to the Solent and the lesser but still noticeable flows into Wiltshire and Bristol. And the A27 certainly cannot handle any additional traffic which turning all trains to all-station would generate. the A27 can't handle the traffic it gets now, the last thing it needs is a load more dumped on it.

Unfortunately the mixed stopping patterns will need to stay.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Correct

No, the inter-urban traffic along the coast from Brighton to Littlehampton and Chichester is significant, not to mention the sizeable flows to the Solent and the lesser but still noticeable flows into Wiltshire and Bristol. And the A27 certainly cannot handle any additional traffic which turning all trains to all-station would generate. the A27 can't handle the traffic it gets now, the last thing it needs is a load more dumped on it.

Unfortunately the mixed stopping patterns will need to stay.

The West Coastway line from Littlehampton to Hove is also served by 2tph GTR Littlehampton to London Victoria calling at all stations Littlehampton to Worthing then Lancing, Shoreham by Sea, Portslade, Hove then the Brighton Mainline to London Victoria providing the train service to Gatwick Airport and London Victoria for the important stations Littlehampton to Hove inclusive.

 

[David Goddard]

Was thinking about this last Thursday when I was taking a last ride on the 313s. This stretch of line needs a way of providing limited stop longer distance trains, along with all stations stoppers, with appropriate connections along the way. I had also thought about reopening the Up loop at Barnham as has been suggested, and this would certainly open up some opportunities for double connections with Coastway services and those from London.
The short notice timetable in place last week (please don't bring the reasons for it into this discussion) saw all West Coastway services drop into Littlehampton, and in doing so also resulted in a two per hour service between Brighton and Littlehampton, where the regular service sees a handful each day. This could be a way of getting a stopper clear for a faster one to run through, in addition to linking Littlehampton directly to the intermediate stations between there and Brighton.

 

[JonathanH]

The short notice timetable in place last week (please don't bring the reasons for it into this discussion) saw all West Coastway services drop into Littlehampton, and in doing so also resulted in a two per hour service between Brighton and Littlehampton, where the regular service sees a handful each day. This could be a way of getting a stopper clear for a faster one to run through, in addition to linking Littlehampton directly to the intermediate stations between there and Brighton.

However, that is effectively already how the timetable works, but with the trains from London heading into Littlehampton, and a stopping service to Portsmouth starting there. Operationally, you wouldn't really want to be using a diversion into Littlehampton and back out as a 'loop' because it constrains the path and introduces crossing movements, in a way that delinking the trains across Littlehampton doesn't.

Presumably people from Littlehampton are happier having trains to London than trains to Brighton.