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Is there an argument for discouraging people to use the train when they are not making a direct return trip? For example, do triangular/one-way travellers impose an extra cost on the railway compared to those doing a simple there and back? Obviously the car caters for the multi-leg trips very well so by pricing singles sky high as they are at the moment you are basically telling them to go by car.
Chiltern charge £5 per transaction for normal ticket refunds at their Ticket Offices, and £10 for season ticket refunds (other than where the admin fee is waived.)
I'm not sure what LNER do but, if they charge £10 per ticket, it'd be very mean of them to charge £20 fee if someone wanted a refund on flexible outward and return tickets once they stopped selling returns.
A question - is this policy only coming in for tickets between LNER served stations, or for all LNER priced flows?
If the SLP flows can be very easily avoided for those who like to break their journeys or make use of the SVR instead of buying two Anytime Singles then that’s alright.
I guess we’ll see. It’s a bit ambiguous as there’s this reference to returns being available with other operators and some LNER journeys.
That suggests it could be a case of SLP not applying to journeys that must involve another TOC i.e buying a ticket to Manors. Or that it is all LNER flows and journeys like London to Stevenage or some hops in Yorkshire or Scotland won’t be affected as they don’t price them.
If it is all LNER flows then that would have been a big job, and differs from GWR who have cheaper singles for intercity journeys wholly on their own routes rather than on all their flows. Creates some pretty major pricing anomalies but is good if you have the knowledge that a single from Paddington is the way to go - when at my perch in the sticks I always advise customers to pay separately for the GWR leg, where they get the benefit of paying almost double the price if buying a ticket for the journey from online ticket retailers.
For a single journey York to Newark is now cheaper than York to Retford (and valid for finishing short)
You can no longer buy an "open return" for York to Newark and the cost of a return journey (2x singles) has gone up 4.3%.
Despite pricing York to Nottingham, LNER have not implemented single leg pricing (and the associated fare increase) on that flow. However Harrogate to Newark has got single leg pricing. So there is no consistency.
As expected, York to London sees the loss of Off Peak, forcing users of those fares onto Anytime fares (or more restrictive Advances). The Super Off Peak goes up from £131.50 return to £136.80 (£68.40 each way), however this can be undercut by £2.80 from Leeds (it's valid to start/finish short; I expect the Leeds fare will go up now I've posted this!)
If you want to travel from Northallerton to Doncaster, it's cheaper to buy from Darlington and finish short; there are loads of examples of this.
It looks like there has been an increase of around 4.1% across the board, for those flows where SLP has been enabled.
For example, Kings Lynn to Bathgate will now cost £85.30 for an Off-Peak Single (the return is abolished), equating to £170.60 for a return journey compared to £163.90 currently charged for an Off-Peak Return.
Given that these Off-Peak fares already increased by ~6% in the March fares increase (the aforementioned SVR cost £154.80 before that), this amounts to an increase of over 10% in the space of 4 months.
Little wonder LNER were being so cagey about the details! Isn't it an awful coincidence how they forgot to mention this in their press release...
This makes this whole change even more unacceptable, as if it weren't already bad enough. The government must be held to account for what they have done here.
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.
www.brfares.com
Return Travel
Outward Travel
Restriction Code: 1D
Restricted Days: Monday to Friday
Mondays to Fridays
Not valid for arrivals into:
LondonTerminals (except as shown below) after 04:29 and before 10:08;
London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 10:00;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:03;
LondonEuston after 07:19 and before 11:30;
Stevenage after 03:59 and before 09:57;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 10:04;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:30;
Watford Junction after 06:43 and before 10:45 except to Carlisle;
Milton KeynesCentral after 06:38 and before 10:48.
Not valid for departures from:
London Terminals (except as shown below) Mondays to Thursdays after 06:44 and before 07:59 or after 15:57 and before 17:46 - or Fridays after 06:44 and before 07:59;
London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 09:00 or after 16:34 and before 18:47;
LondonEuston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45;
Stevenage Mondays to Thursdays after 07:14 and before 08:15 or after 16:17 and before 17:58 - or Fridays after 07:14 and before 08:15
Luton after 04:29 and before 09:01 or after 16:26 and before 18:59;
Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
WatfordJunction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 14:38 and before 18:38;
Milton KeynesCentral after 04:29 and before 09:51.
1D is very generous compared to the highly restrictive Super Off Peak; if LNER had genuinely introduced half price singles under a proper single leg pricing regime, it would have meant an Off Peak Single priced at £107.85 which could have been used at "shoulder peak" times; instead people travelling at such times are now asked to pay £160 or wait until the price drops to the Super Off Peak price of £68.40 (which is more than half the Super Off Peak Return was). Why is there a need for such a huge cliff edge? I thought DfT wanted to avoid such huge cliff edges.
LNER will be going on about all the positives but none of the negatives.
Given that these Off-Peak fares already increased by ~6% in the March fares increase (the aforementioned SVR cost £154.80 before that), this amounts to an increase of over 10% in the space of 4 months.
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.
Ah, thanks, BRfares isn't very clear on what's old vs new. But yes, that super off-peak looks nasty on the return leg of a York->London return.
Worth noting that buying a day-of advance right before boarding the train is likely to be better value than the anytime tickets - but less convenient, and the theoretical maximum price on a busy day is much higher. Not really a reasonable substitute.
Yeah - LNER have done a great job of muddling the discussion here. Single-leg pricing is in and of itself a pretty good idea IMO, but increasing fares at the same time is just ****ty.
That sort of cliff edge is commercial nonsense - even if it genuinely maximises the yield it will seriously reduce the passenger count - so I can only imagine the cavern will be filled with a range of dynamic Advances introduced at intermediate price points. For the most price sensitive travellers, there'll probably also be a convenient shift to adjacent flows that avoid the problem for now, which will assist them in showing it to be a success at this stage, before they later turn the screw by changing those flows too - divide and conquer.
Worth noting that buying a day-of advance right before boarding the train is likely to be better value than the anytime tickets - but less convenient, and the theoretical maximum price on a busy day is much higher. Not really a reasonable substitute.
Yeah - LNER have done a great job of muddling the discussion here. Single-leg pricing is in and of itself a pretty good idea IMO, but increasing fares at the same time is just ****ty.
This is typical of LNER, and they won't apologise or admit they made a mistake; instead it will be our fault for complaining.
A few more for amusement, don't buy Darlington to Leeds or Northallerton to Wakefield singles; for either of these journeys you need to buy Darlington to Wakefield. I could go on, but you get the picture! (actually in all these cases it's likely that the forum's ticketing site would find an even better price by splitting, but that's a whole different topic!)
Worth noting that buying a day-of advance right before boarding the train is likely to be better value than the anytime tickets - but less convenient, and the theoretical maximum price on a busy day is much higher. Not really a reasonable substitute.
Despite the negativity here, on the whole this seems like a significant improvement. CrossCountry won't be happy with how much in undercuts their advances though! (Image shows Super Off-Peak single for £50 less than the cheapest advance)
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Despite the negativity here, on the whole this seems like a significant improvement. CrossCountry won't be happy with how much in undercuts their advances though! (Image shows Super Off-Peak single for £50 less than the cheapest advance)
I am struggling to see the improvement? If you are making a return journey, the cost has now increased and your flexibility removed on most LNER set routes.
But if you are not it is better. No more need to be creative with returns when doing a multi-leg journey or having to get the coach when you can't get an Advance. There's no way of making this change revenue neutral without some kind of increase. If the top priority is to make the return as cheap as possible then almost every other country is doing it wrong. That would mean they are all also ripping off their passengers. They could introduce a cheaper return by increasing singles.
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.
www.brfares.com
1D is very generous compared to the highly restrictive Super Off Peak; if LNER had genuinely introduced half price singles under a proper single leg pricing regime, it would have meant an Off Peak Single priced at £107.85 which could have been used at "shoulder peak" times; instead people travelling at such times are now asked to pay £160 or wait until the price drops to the Super Off Peak price of £68.40 (which is more than half the Super Off Peak Return was). Why is there a need for such a huge cliff edge? I thought DfT wanted to avoid such huge cliff edges.
LNER will be going on about all the positives but none of the negatives.
The fares do nothing of the sort. The "compulsory reservation" flag in the timetable does that. You can however ignore it, provided you can find an itinerary that issues the ticket or a non-planner-based TVM e.g. WMT's or Northern's, as reservations are not in fact compulsory, it's just a (wilfully) incorrect setting in the timetable data.
OTOH you're probably not best advised to ignore it unless you have no other viable option, because LNER set the data up to sell, for any given train, every seat *plus* a percentage of counted places, so if you do travel on a train showing as "sold out" you will almost certainly experience a crush-load.
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Ah, thanks, BRfares isn't very clear on what's old vs new. But yes, that super off-peak looks nasty on the return leg of a York->London return.
Worth noting that buying a day-of advance right before boarding the train is likely to be better value than the anytime tickets - but less convenient, and the theoretical maximum price on a busy day is much higher. Not really a reasonable substitute.
Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.
www.brfares.com
1D is very generous compared to the highly restrictive Super Off Peak; if LNER had genuinely introduced half price singles under a proper single leg pricing regime, it would have meant an Off Peak Single priced at £107.85 which could have been used at "shoulder peak" times; instead people travelling at such times are now asked to pay £160 or wait until the price drops to the Super Off Peak price of £68.40 (which is more than half the Super Off Peak Return was). Why is there a need for such a huge cliff edge? I thought DfT wanted to avoid such huge cliff edges.
LNER will be going on about all the positives but none of the negatives.
Like the WCML Advances will smooth the cliff edge. The WCML never had the Business Saver, as Virgin pioneered the Advance Single (then Virgin Value Single) instead; at the time other TOCs were doing almost everything walk-up.
Not ideal, though, I agree.
Interestingly fairly recently WMT changed from a 2-step to a 3-step fare structure, but I suppose local services are a bit different.
Despite the negativity here, on the whole this seems like a significant improvement. CrossCountry won't be happy with how much in undercuts their advances though! (Image shows Super Off-Peak single for £50 less than the cheapest advance)
It's only an improvement "on the whole" for people who do single leg journeys; and even then, the cost of singles is more than half the returns used to be, and the full range isn't available, meaning 'shoulder peak' trains are so expensive they are closer to an Anytime Single than what the old Off Peak Return used to be.
It's true that some unscrupulous operators such as XC and TPE engage in the sharp practice of having some Advance fares priced notably higher than half the cost of a flexible return, and they are now going to be disrupted in doing that; that is a benefit for some passengers who only travel one way, but all it does is render useless a practice which was highly dubious to begin with, and was irrelevant for most people.
But if you are not it is better. No more need to be creative with returns when doing a multi-leg journey or having to get the coach when you can't get an Advance. There's no way of making this change revenue neutral without some kind of increase. If the top priority is to make the return as cheap as possible then almost every other country is doing it wrong. That would mean they are all also ripping off their passengers. They could introduce a cheaper return by increasing singles.
Yes it benefits people who only travel one way. But do you think most rail passengers don't return? As for other countries, their prices are generally much lower than ours to begin with, so the comparison is null and void in my opinion; feel free to create a thread if you'd like to discuss this further.
This is a price rise in terms of the actual prices and also a further price rise by stealth by abolishing shoulder peak fares to/from London; I don't understand how you can claim this is a good thing.
Despite the negativity here, on the whole this seems like a significant improvement. CrossCountry won't be happy with how much in undercuts their advances though! (Image shows Super Off-Peak single for £50 less than the cheapest advance)
I'm all for it nationally, though I think sneaking in an extra 4% increase was extremely sly. I assume that was what they calculated as necessary to make it revenue neutral?
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This is a price rise in terms of the actual prices and a price rise by stealth by abolishing shoulder peak fares to/from London; I don't understand how you can claim this is a good thing.
As with WMT's switch to a three-step walk up fare structure it has winners and losers. The win is added flexibility of singles being good value and the ability to mix and match with other offers, or go one way by coach or something. The lose is the sly increase, where you don't know your return day and overnight BoJ on return.
I suspect it will adversely affect, bar the sly 4% increase, hardly anyone. Very few people go away for several days without knowing the day of return, and overnight BoJ is definitely a niche pursuit (and you can still do it by splitting). The loss of the Off Peak step is bad, though, I agree, I'd have preferred to keep the three-step walk up structure.
Are these on BRFares anywhere? If so how do I find them?
I suspect it will adversely affect, bar the sly 4% increase, hardly anyone. Very few people go away for several days without knowing the day of return, and overnight BoJ is definitely a niche pursuit (and you can still do it by splitting).
Those who only travel peak in one direction pay less. Those who only travel in one direction pay less. In both cases the saving will be quite significant.
It’s a 4% rise for some people. However it’s a 45% cut for some other people. Swings and roundabouts.
So for it to be revenue-neutral then there will need to be a rise in the base fares.
www.brfares.com
