Train ticket price is this vaild

[yorkie]

How do you find out Routing guides and fare checks.

End users do not have to do this; it's done by the websites that sell tickets. But there are people on this forum who work with this data and understand it, and can advise accordingly.

And how can their website sell the tickets saying to go via Ebbsfleet and Ashford

Because it's valid to go that way.

Think that be to late now as staff at Ebbsfleet where showing the ticket off when I tried to go through barriers and saying it that ticket again,

It's still valid at the moment, and any tickets sold are valid as per the T&Cs applicable at the time of purchase, but it's only a matter of time before such tickets are no longer purchasable.

There are all sorts of other tickets elsewhere which offer better value to customers than train companies would be happy with; it's a game of cat & mouse, and as anyone who has watched Red Dwarf will know, there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse.

 

[Josh Robin]

If they want to do it, it could be done in a few days, definitely weeks and not months.

Well best stock up for them as many as I can into then

End users do not have to do this; it's done by the websites that sell tickets. But there are people on this forum who work with this data and understand it, and can advise accordingly.

Because it's valid to go that way.

It's still valid at the moment, and any tickets sold are valid as per the T&Cs applicable at the time of purchase, but it's only a matter of time before such tickets are no longer purchasable.

There are all sorts of other tickets elsewhere which offer better value to customers than train companies would be happy with; it's a game of cat & mouse, and as anyone who has watched Red Dwarf will know, there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse.

Wonder how much they charge for use on the highspeed line

 

[jfollows]

Wonder how much they charge for use on the highspeed line

I think I mentioned earlier, but you can look it up on the site I quoted just now, £32.20 for a cheap day return Strood-Ashford using HS1 I think.

Then add a bit more for the leg to Charing.

 

[Josh Robin]

I think I mentioned earlier, but you can look it up on the site I quoted just now, £32.20 for a cheap day return Strood-Ashford using HS1 I think.
View attachment 134850
Then add a bit more for the leg to Charing.

How you get that up

 

[jfollows]

How you get that up

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Unofficial but accurate.

 

[Josh Robin]

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Unofficial but accurate.

Thanks

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Thanks

Any place that show tickets do add a route for when buying like strood to charing with route or is there no fares for it

 

[jfollows]

Any place that show tickets do add a route for when buying like strood to charing with route or is there no fares for it

I am not totally sure what you are asking, but:
If you buy a ticket on-line the systems try and interpret the fares data and the routeing guide.
Today, for Strood-Charing, there is only an "any permitted" route for all the fares (see https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=SOO&dest=CHG) so the online systems go to their interpretation of the routeing guide, which - as we have said - actually has no valid routes (the "fares check" fails for both Ashford and Otford - don't worry about this!) so the systems fall back to the shortest route, which is always allowed. And the route using HS1 is either the shortest route or less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, so it's valid.
As yorkie has said, this isn't something most people should need to worry about, it's just that a few of us like digging into the details.
The change could be to change "any permitted" to "not via HS1" and a more expensive "plus high speed" ticket, so that the online systems will then give you prices and itineraries accordingly. But that's guessing at the moment.

 

[MikeWh]

(or with a walk from Maidstone West to East)

Pedantically, it's actually Barracks to East for the shortest walk by far. My son used to live between the two.

 

[yorkie]

I am not totally sure what you are asking, but:
If you buy a ticket on-line the systems try and interpret the fares data and the routeing guide.
Today, for Strood-Charing, there is only an "any permitted" route for all the fares (see https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=SOO&dest=CHG) so the online systems go to their interpretation of the routeing guide, which - as we have said - actually has no valid routes (the "fares check" fails for both Ashford and Otford - don't worry about this!) so the systems fall back to the shortest route, which is always allowed. And the route using HS1 is either the shortest route or less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, so it's valid.

What you say is broadly correct but I'd just amend the wording slightly to say there are no mapped routes; the shortest route is still a valid route and applies without any need to consult the routeing guide.

For completeness, I'll add that negative easmements cannot prevent the shortest route being used (so Southeasrtern would not be able to use that as a potential solution) however a route that is not the shortest route by rail, but is no greater than 3 miles longer than the shortest route by rail (which could in fact be shorter than the shortest route by rail, such as walking across Maidstone) can be invalidated by negative easements.

As others have mentioned, anyone who is interested can learn more at a forum fares workshops., but they don't occur very often.

...As yorkie has said, this isn't something most people should need to worry about, it's just that a few of us like digging into the details....

Or are paid to do this. Or both

Indeed I know of several people who actually got jobs in this area after attending fares workshops.

 

[MrJeeves]

negative easmements cannot prevent the shortest route being used (so Southeasrtern would not be able to use that as a potential solution)

And I never stop learning...

 

[jfollows]

What you say is broadly correct but I'd just amend the wording slightly to say there are no mapped routes; the shortest route is still a valid route and applies without any need to consult the routeing guide.

Thank you, yorkie, it's important to get the wording right here and I'm grateful for the clarification and completely agree with what you say. It also means that - in this case - if the fares alone are changed to give a valid mapped "any permitted" route via Otford it won't invalidate the shortest route via Ashford and HS1 anyway.

 

[Benjwri]

so Southeasrtern would not be able to use that as a potential solution

Interestingly the routes via Ashford and Ebbsfleet actually isn’t the shortest route. Going via Paddock Wood is shortest, at 48 miles and 57 chains, while going via HS1 is 48 miles 65 chains, so the route could be invalidated by an easement.

 

[Watershed]

Interestingly the routes via Ashford and Ebbsfleet actually isn’t the shortest route. Going via Paddock Wood is shortest, at 48 miles and 57 chains, while going via HS1 is 48 miles 65 chains, so the route could be invalidated by an easement.

The mileage is the same via either route according to the National Rail Timetable.

 

[island]

The mileage is the same via either route according to the National Rail Timetable.

(as it rounds distances to the nearest quarter mile)

 

[yorkie]

OK the distance in the data via Paddock Wood is 48.71 and the distance via Ebbsfleet is 48.91 , so although a (theoretical) negative easment would not be contractually enforceable, it would be applied by booking engines. This would not be a satisfactory outcome.

But train companies like Southeastern are not going to allow a fare as good value as this to be used via HS1.

So the outcome is almost certainly going to be that this fare gets re-routed, with Not HS1 and Plus HS1 routeing options. I do not know how soon they could do this, or what permission they require, but the DfT would be more than happy to give permission, given the DfT's aim is for farepayers to pay as much as the market will possibly bear.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So the outcome is almost certainly going to be that this fare gets re-routed, with Not HS1 and Plus HS1 routeing options. I do not know how soon they could do this, or what permission they require, but the DfT would be more than happy to give permission, given the DfT's aim is for farepayers to pay as much as the market will possibly bear.

Theoretically it would have to wait until the September fares change, but the DfT could authorise SET to do it earlier if they wished.

 

[Watershed]

Theoretically it would have to wait until the September fares change, but the DfT could authorise SET to do it earlier if they wished.

And theoretically the DfT and Transport Focus has to be consulted, but I imagine SET will just do it off their own initiative, claiming it was never "intended" to be valid that way (even though it has been, ever since HS1 opened).

Unfortunately, if LNER could get away with scandalously re-routing Edinburgh to London via York, despite the long-standing validity via the WCML, nothing is off the table here.

 

[Josh Robin]

OK the distance in the data via Paddock Wood is 48.71 and the distance via Ebbsfleet is 48.91 , so although a (theoretical) negative easment would not be contractually enforceable, it would be applied by booking engines. This would not be a satisfactory outcome.

But train companies like Southeastern are not going to allow a fare as good value as this to be used via HS1.

So the outcome is almost certainly going to be that this fare gets re-routed, with Not HS1 and Plus HS1 routeing options. I do not know how soon they could do this, or what permission they require, but the DfT would be more than happy to give permission, given the DfT's aim is for farepayers to pay as much as the market will possibly bear.

So basically saying that I I shouldn't have posted it on form because the fare going to most definitely be changed and probably due to it being reported by someone else.

Because the fare been vaild for ages but they don't want people to use it cheaply

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Thank you, yorkie, it's important to get the wording right here and I'm grateful for the clarification and completely agree with what you say. It also means that - in this case - if the fares alone are changed to give a valid mapped "any permitted" route via Otford it won't invalidate the shortest route via Ashford and HS1 anyway.

So it will be still be vaild? Due to this

So if station staff say don't book it for this way again don't listen to them as this morning I got told I shouldn't be doing this and should do via Maidstone

 

[Haywain]

I shouldn't have posted it on form because the fare going to most definitely be changed and probably due to it being reported by someone else.

It is not definite that it will be changed but there is a strong possibility of that happening. However, this became a possibility when you contacted Southeastern about it, and posting here just increased the chance of a change being made. As the ticket is cheaper than tickets for some shorter journeys between stations that you pass through it should be fairly clear why an adjustment may be considered necessary - generally journeys using HS1 are priced at a premium to those avoiding it, because it is a significantly faster route for most journeys.

 

[jfollows]

So basically saying that I I shouldn't have posted it on form because the fare going to most definitely be changed and probably due to it being reported by someone else.

Because the fare been vaild for ages but they don't want people to use it cheaply

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==


So it will be still be vaild? Due to this

So if station staff say don't book it for this way again don't listen to them as this morning I got told I shouldn't be doing this and should do via Maidstone

Keep on booking the ticket and using it, the station staff are wrong if they tell you not to, at some point it will probably stop working but you will notice at the time. If you have an itinerary showing the trains you use, it's valid.
And nothing wrong with posting it here - it was already known anyway.

 

[Benjwri]

So it will be still be vaild? Due to this

So if station staff say don't book it for this way again don't listen to them as this morning I got told I shouldn't be doing this and should do via Maidstone

If the ticket remains with the wording ‘ANY PERMITTED’ on it, yes this route will be valid, and the station staff are wrong. If the routeing changes it could become invalid.

 

[Watershed]

So basically saying that I I shouldn't have posted it on form because the fare going to most definitely be changed and probably due to it being reported by someone else.

Yes. Although reporting it to customer services likely already resulted in the Pricing Manager being tipped off.

So it will be still be vaild? Due to this

Any ticket you buy will always be valid in accordance with the itinerary you're offered. It doesn't matter whether the Routeing Guide is later changed, because the itinerary is always contractually valid.

So if station staff say don't book it for this way again don't listen to them as this morning I got told I shouldn't be doing this and should do via Maidstone

They are talking nonsense because they haven't a clue about how permitted routes or contractual validity works. You can always travel in accordance with your itinerary, even if the staff would prefer you not to.

 

[kieran_]

So basically saying that I I shouldn't have posted it on form because the fare going to most definitely be changed and probably due to it being reported by someone else.

Because the fare been vaild for ages but they don't want people to use it cheaply

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==


So it will be still be vaild? Due to this

So if station staff say don't book it for this way again don't listen to them as this morning I got told I shouldn't be doing this and should do via Maidstone

They can't stop you booking your train provide the ticket is still valid with the litinery even print it off shows it vaild if the ticket and booking engine still says any permitted and takes it in HS1 use it even better get an advanced ticket and if it says to go via ebbsfleet and Ashford

 

[Josh Robin]

Yes. Although reporting it to customer services likely already resulted in the Pricing Manager being tipped off.


Any ticket you buy will always be valid in accordance with the itinerary you're offered. It doesn't matter whether the Routeing Guide is later changed, because the itinerary is always contractually valid.


They are talking nonsense because they haven't a clue about how permitted routes or contractual validity works. You can always travel in accordance with your itinerary, even if the staff would prefer you not to.

Well it good I'm protected by the contract wonder how annoyed they are getting as seem to getting annoyed with it

 

[jfollows]

Well it good I'm protected by the contract wonder how annoyed they are getting as seem to getting annoyed with it

There is a strong tendency with railway staff (some of them, of course, not all of them) that if they don't know the rules they make them up. As for being annoyed, that is even more silly, it's not as if it's their personal money, they should just accept it's how things are and move on.

 

[island]

Well it good I'm protected by the contract wonder how annoyed they are getting as seem to getting annoyed with it

You are – but only as long as you travel on the exact itinerary chosen at booking time.

 

[miklcct]

You are – but only as long as you travel on the exact itinerary chosen at booking time.

If it is a flexible ticket, then it is good to validate the route as long as you are travelling on the exact route.

 

[Benjwri]

You are – but only as long as you travel on the exact itinerary chosen at booking time.

Although also protected on this specific ticket while the routeing remains Any Permitted.

 

[Josh Robin]

Although also protected on this specific ticket while the routeing remains Any Permitted.

Is that because you can go on southeast booking engine and find train times giving it with same price with ticket wonder if I was late or missed a train then would I still have something protecting me

 

[Benjwri]

Is that because you can go on southeast booking engine and find train times giving it with same price with ticket wonder if I was late or missed a train then would I still have something protecting me

No, ultimately while the ticket remains an any permitted routing it is valid via this route because it is the shortest route. You're still protected because the routing guide is part of your contract and that is what it says.