Future of TPE

[JonathanH]

Why is it that the South of England is regarded (rightly in my view) as needing multiple TOCs, partly in order that they don't become too large to manage well, yet it is even considered that one TOC would be suitable for the North of England?

I imagine it comes from the fact that the South of England TOCs do not, in the main, overlap, whereas TPE and Northern run many services between the same destinations.

I guess people think there could be efficiencies if the operations could be consolidated, but Northern hasn't itself achieved that level of harmonisation yet so holding out hope of bringing all of Northern and TPE together seems a sizable challenge.

 

[Magdalia]

That is of course inevitably a South of England perspective. For most of the country the choice is based on which side of the UK you live on

The context was travel between the south of England and Scotland, where there is a choice.

 

[Neptune]

Why is it that the South of England is regarded (rightly in my view) as needing multiple TOCs, partly in order that they don't become too large to manage well, yet it is even considered that one TOC would be suitable for the North of England?

Never heard of GWR? A mega franchise for the southwest combining First Great Western, Thames Trains and Wessex Trains? They do just fine.

Northern and TPE similarly overlap on the vast majority of routes unlike most south of England TOC’s which run specific routes into specific London terminals for which it would make no sense to merge.

No there’s so much anti-Northern rhetoric on here it’s almost laughable. You only have to look at some people have a problem with how Northern have clamped down on fare evasion reducing it by over £1m in the last year alone to realise that (‘too many penalty fare officers at Leeds which I find intimidating even though I don’t need to go anywhere near them’, ‘too many LPO’s checking tickets at outstations meaning it takes 10 seconds longer to leave the platform whilst it’s checked’, ‘I actually get asked to show my railcard now’, ‘too many on train checks now and sometimes have to show it twice on a journey when they change crew’).

These are all things I’ve read on here in recent times and yet they’re probably the same people who complain about fare evasion. If it was a London commuter operator it would be congratulated no doubt.

 

[WibbleWobble]

They should change the name. It’s been associated with First for over 20 years, and many people still refer to it as “First TransPennine Express.”

Most of that clutch of services - principally the serves running via the core Manchester - Leeds route - has been known as TransPennine Express in some form since Regional Railways days, so for over 30 years.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will ASLEF still impose the current ban on overtime working under the OLR regime?

 

[59CosG95]

Of course it’s a well known brand! It’s now famous for having a lottery on whether or not trains show up - much like Avanti was, which somehow survived the OLR.

Bit more tricky diplomatically I think, what with Trenitalia having a stake in Avanti.
(One also wonders if the close political alignments of the current UK & Italian gov'ts had a hand to play, although I'm not sure how closely aligned Ferrovie dello Stato is with the Meloni administration!)

 

[JonathanH]

Will ASLEF still impose the current ban on overtime working under the OLR regime?

If the grounds for the dispute are unchanged, the dispute will surely go on.

The (separate) pay disputes are ongoing on OLR operations, as much as they are on the 'private' operations.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Bit more tricky diplomatically I think, what with Trenitalia having a stake in Avanti.
(One also wonders if the close political alignments of the current UK & Italian gov'ts had a hand to play, although I'm not sure how closely aligned Ferrovie dello Stato is with the Meloni administration!)

I suspect that has nothing to do with it, I think it was said somewhere OLR did not have the capacity to take on another separate franchise. I suspect TPE and Northern Geographically matching they have managed to make it work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some hints of wider change in the announcement.
While:

The decision to bring Transpennine Express into the control of the operator of last resort is temporary and it is the government’s full intention that it will return to the private sector

suggests TPE will continue in its present form, there is clearly the opportunity to merge it with Northern under OLR.
Harper has also asked northern Mayors to work with DfT to develop improved services for the north:

As part of this and in response to stakeholders’ calls for action, the Transport Secretary has asked the Department for Transport to review services in the north to help drive efficiency and find better ways to deliver for passengers across the region. He also asks all interested parties including the northern mayors and Transport for the North to engage with the government on this work.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it that the South of England is regarded (rightly in my view) as needing multiple TOCs

I’m not sure it is: GTR is a monster franchise. GTR is probably a good example of how it may work in the north, hiding behind a number of sub-brands.

And before that we saw plenty of consolidation of intercity and suburban services into the same TOC at GWR and Anglia.

I’m not sure a monster TOC would work for the whole of the north, but I would say things were a lot more coherent when we had RRNE and RRNW and their successors. Remember Trans Pennine Express started out as a sub-brand of Northern Spirit.

 

[Danfilm007]

Some hints of wider change in the announcement.
While:

suggests TPE will continue in its present form, there is clearly the opportunity to merge it with Northern under OLR.
Harper has also asked northern Mayors to work with DfT to develop improved services for the north:


The DfT announcement also confirms the extension of LNER's single leg pricing from June 11.

Maybe the PTE locally will happen?

 

[heathrowrail]

Why is it that the South of England is regarded (rightly in my view) as needing multiple TOCs, partly in order that they don't become too large to manage well, yet it is even considered that one TOC would be suitable for the North of England?

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That is of course inevitably a South of England perspective. For most of the country the choice is based on which side of the UK you live on,

Hmmm really?

Great Western Railway is the biggest and largest area franchise in the country and is often regarded as one of the better UK operators.

GTR is also another large franchise, it's had issues but now seems to be improving.

I honestly think it's about time the government just brought all of them back in house and split it back into the big 4 or big 5. GWR, SR, LMS, LNER, XC.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I honestly think it's about time the government just brought all of them back in house and split it back into the big 4 or big 5. GWR, SR, LMS, LNER, XC.

Isn't that what GBR is?
The boundaries are essentially those of the current NR Regions.
But TPE and XC don't fit those boundaries, and Northern is split between two of them.
GTR is split too, also EL/Crossrail (with TfL in the middle).
DfT has so far shown no appetite to alter the franchise/TOC boundaries.
HS2 services would also have been inter-Regional, although for now it is looking like being just a WCML replacement.

 

[WAO]

The "multiple TOC's" plus others, tend to mirror the evolved management areas from the year dot. Thus SE&CR, LB&SCR, L&SWR became South Eastern, Central and South Western Divisions of the SR and then BR(SR). They then made convenient (mostly) TOC's. GWR actually reverted from being an Intercity sector based unit to a TOC then back to the old BR(WR) and hence (minus Wales), the GWR of old.

The North never had that easy geographical separation and was composed partly of minor lines of companies like the L&NWR (and so of lower priority). By far the best was the L&Y (of course!) but that was subsumed into the L&NWR.

Effectively, we have partly undone the 1923 grouping.

While it would be untidy at the edges and risk a very good name, I would put the northern franchises together and call them the L&YR!

How would the brown and violet livery look on modern stock?

WAO

 

[Bartsimho]

Surely it is easier to split West and East due to the Pennines and very few lines between the sides. Only the Hope Valley, Marsden, Caldervale, Skipton and Wellington and the Newcastle and Carlisle.

The NE TOC has several stops in the North East and when it reaches the North West it only has the destinations while the same in reverse for the NW TOC with them alternating the pure stoppers on those lines.

 

[Some guy]

Absolutely fantastic news with the government running it they will give more of a damn to run a service. Ever since Northern and LNER was taken over they’ve been far more reliable. First group had to go they overstayed their welcome

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Absolutely fantastic news with the government running it they will give more of a damn to run a service. Ever since Northern and LNER was taken over they’ve been far more reliable. First group had to go they overstayed their welcome

Not always the case - TfW has for worse since it was moved to government operation.

 

[daodao]

Most of that clutch of services - principally the serves running via the core Manchester - Leeds route - has been known as TransPennine Express in some form since Regional Railways days, so for over 30 years.

Actually longer. The name Transpennine came into regular use in 1960 with the introduction of the 6-car inter-city Class 124 dmu trains, built specifically for the trans-Pennine route. IMO, they were the best of the first generation dmus.

On a more relevant note, OLR taking over the TPE franchise gives the DfT the opportunity to re-organise the Northern and TPE franchise areas, and also move certain services to other (IMO more appropriate) franchises. Is there any indication from official announcements or sources of what might be being considered?

 

[Some guy]

Not always the case - TfW has for worse since it was moved to government operation.

That’s no the fault of the Welsh government it’s the fault of the traction they took over from arriva although does carry on to the poor rostering Running 2 car 150’s on Swansea to Manchester is an absolute disgrace but that’s also down to 175’s wanting to catch fire

 

[cuccir]

I think, on balance, I prefer the idea that (if we're not to have a single national rail operator), non-London express intercity services within the North as being either in a separate dedicated franchise - ie what TPE is now - or distributed across other existing express operators (presumably Avanti, XC, LNER). There is something in the public-facing branding, but also in the specific skills and commercial interests in managing an express franchise which I think would either be lost or would be at risk of being lost with a Northern merger.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That’s no the fault of the Welsh government it’s the fault of the traction they took over from arriva although does carry on to the poor rostering Running 2 car 150’s on Swansea to Manchester is an absolute disgrace but that’s also down to 175’s wanting to catch fire

Which is the fault of the Welsh Government - they have had the operation for over 2 years now, during which time they have changed the maintenance regime which has ended up resulting in the fires on the 175s.

 

[daodao]

I think, on balance, I prefer the idea that (if we're not to have a single national rail operator), non-London express intercity services within the North as being either in a separate dedicated franchise - ie what TPE is now - or distributed across other existing express operators (presumably Avanti, XC, LNER). There is something in the public-facing branding, but also in the specific skills and commercial interests in managing an express franchise which I think would either be lost or would be at risk of being lost with a Northern merger.

There are a number of semi-fast and stopping services on the Standedge route that would be best incorporated into the Northern franchise. However, I agree that the genuine express services would sit better with other TOCs that operate express services, e.g.:

• WCML services to Avanti
• Liverpool-York-Newcastle/Tees-side services to LNER
• Newcastle-Edinburgh semi-fast services to LNER/XC
• Liverpool-Sheffield-Cleethorpes services to EMT

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is the fault of the Welsh Government - they have had the operation for over 2 years now, during which time they have changed the maintenance regime which has ended up resulting in the fires on the 175s.

Not excusing that, but TfW really is a bit of a Virgin Trains (original version) in that they're a shoestring operation with ageing rolling stock that's about to get a huge upgrade with a near-total fleet replacement, and I suspect those trials and tribulations will be long forgotten in 5 years' time when all thew new kit is in service, provided they operate it reliably (unlike TPE, who have struggled to operate reliably and with full capacity despite having the biggest surplus of rolling stock of any TOC in history).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

WCML services to Avanti

I agree with this one. The 807s would be ideal for it, adding a little more capacity to this popular service; a second Liverpool could be provided more cheaply by extending the LNR Crewe instead and running it as 10.730 for capacity. The budget option would I'm sure be appreciated there too.

• Liverpool-York-Newcastle/Tees-side services to LNER

Don't agree with this one. It's too far off their patch and would end up unreliable.

• Newcastle-Edinburgh semi-fast services to LNER/XC

These really need to be a two-hourly semifast EMU service jointly operated by Northern and ScotRail.

• Liverpool-Sheffield-Cleethorpes services to EMT

EMR (not EMT) is a bad fit on that route too, as per your LNER proposal it's too off their patch to work well; I'd send these (and the Nottingham, split there) to Northern with enough 185s to work both as six car sets all day and resourced from both ends, not just from Nottingham.

 

[QSK19]

I just think it’s regretful and disappointing that TPE has ended up under the OLR banner.

Taking rolling stock as an example, they have been showered with new trains and a great foundation to perform well, yet other operators such as EMR have managed to perform reasonably well despite having knackered legacy stock (eg rotten 156s), half knackered cascaded stock and much stock distuption due to external factors being forced on them (eg the 196 situation, the shambolic ex-LNER HST imposition).

Yes, I do acknowledge that other factors were at play here; but it does frustrate me that TPE haven’t been able to use the gleaming tools at their disposal, yet EMR have managed with bags of broken washers and blunt handsaws.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Absolutely fantastic news with the government running it they will give more of a damn to run a service. Ever since Northern and LNER was taken over they’ve been far more reliable. First group had to go they overstayed their welcome

It will depend on the nature of the OLR contract, compared to what First was required to deliver.
Government ownership isn't a sinecure for all ills.
Northern/LNER are in dispute with the unions just as much as TPE is.

 

[daodao]

EMR (not EMT) is a bad fit on that route too, as per your LNER proposal it's too off their patch to work well; I'd send these (and the Nottingham, split there) to Northern with enough 185s to work both as six car sets all day and resourced from both ends, not just from Nottingham.

EMR already operate the other fast trains from Sheffield to Liverpool and are the other TOC serving Cleethorpes/Grimsby, so why is it "off their patch" to operate the Liverpool-Sheffield-Cleethorpes service?

These really need to be a two-hourly semifast EMU service jointly operated by Northern and ScotRail.

Transferring the TPE Newcastle-Edinburgh service to XC/LNER by adding 1 or 2 stops to existing services is better than adding 2 extra TOCs to this route. Northern should concentrate on Morpeth-Newcastle local services and Scotrail on Edinburgh-Dunbar/North Berwick local services, and avoid running cross-border services. The electrification on this route cannot support extra electric trains.

Don't agree with this one. It's too far off their patch and would end up unreliable.

There is no really suitable express TOC other than LNER that could take over the Liverpool-York-Newcastle/Tees-side services. LNER do serve Leeds/York as well as NE England (so it isn't really off their patch) and operate similar Hitachi trains to the class 802s used by TPE on these services.

 

[bob007]

No there’s so much anti-Northern rhetoric on here it’s almost laughable. You only have to look at some people have a problem with how Northern have clamped down on fare evasion reducing it by over £1m in the last year alone to realise that (‘too many penalty fare officers at Leeds which I find intimidating even though I don’t need to go anywhere near them’,

These are all things I’ve read on here in recent times and yet they’re probably the same people who complain about fare evasion.

There’s so much anti “anything I agree with” rhetoric on here it’s almost laughable

If you’re going to quote me in a really snide manner, at least don’t misrepresent what I said or what happened.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is this not the time to draw up a new timetable that will allow service provision that will not require drivers to need to work overtime, even though this will mean reduced train services which can normally be expected to be relied on?

 

[Moonshot]

Is this not the time to draw up a new timetable that will allow service provision that will not require drivers to need to work overtime, even though this will mean reduced train services which can normally be expected to be relied on?

That would make sense. A back of the envelope calculation suggests cutting back to something like 60% of the current planned timetable and leave in situ for a few years.

 

[adrock1976]

EMR already operate the other fast trains from Sheffield to Liverpool and are the other TOC serving Cleethorpes/Grimsby, so why is it "off their patch" to operate the Liverpool-Sheffield-Cleethorpes service?


Transferring the TPE Newcastle-Edinburgh service to XC/LNER by adding 1 or 2 stops to existing services is better than adding 2 extra TOCs to this route. Northern should concentrate on Morpeth-Newcastle local services and Scotrail on Edinburgh-Dunbar/North Berwick local services, and avoid running cross-border services. The electrification on this route cannot support extra electric trains.


There is no really suitable express TOC other than LNER that could take over the Liverpool-York-Newcastle/Tees-side services. LNER do serve Leeds/York as well as NE England (so it isn't really off their patch) and operate similar Hitachi trains to the class 802s used by TPE on these services.

Regarding the TP Newcastle - Edinburgh, I seem to remember reading somewhere that when Reston station was reopened, that XC had offered to call there every second hour by means of the train that does not call Dunbar as it would not fit into the timetable with the existing infrastructure.