TPE franchise to move to OLR

[Bletchleyite]

My money would be on them removing a word and simply branding it "Trans-Pennine".

The brand is generic, as required by the franchise agreement, so there is no need to change anything.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The cynic in me is expecting the biggest difference to be a further cut to ticket office opening hours at places like Dewsbury, with the pointless ticket gates being in use even less often than they are now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cynic in me is expecting the biggest difference to be a further cut to ticket office opening hours at places like Dewsbury, with the pointless ticket gates being in use even less often than they are now.

It's already been near enough said that all ticket offices are to close nationwide, hasn't it?

 

[distinctratio]

Just out of curiosity how would the issues regarding staffing be resolved in the short term, because the only two scenarios I can think of are they do a recruitment campaign but of course it would take time and money to source and train staff so it might take a while before that helps. Or alternatively offer better pay offers/benefits to staff which may have left (unsure if the rail industry does this). Or am I completely misunderstanding the issue from my behalf?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just out of curiosity how would the issues regarding staffing be resolved in the short term, because the only two scenarios I can think of are they do a recruitment campaign but of course it would take time and money to source and train staff so it might take a while before that helps. Or alternatively offer better pay offers/benefits to staff which may have left (unsure if the rail industry does this). Or am I completely misunderstanding the issue from my behalf?

Hopefully by way of a workable emergency timetable in the first instance.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's already been near enough said that all ticket offices are to close nationwide, hasn't it?

I know it's been floated, but that's quite different from it actually happening. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

If Huddersfield ticket office were to close, who would feed the cats?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it's been floated, but that's quite different from it actually happening. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

If Huddersfield ticket office were to close, who would feed the cats?

I doubt the station would be destaffed, there would still be dispatchers, cleaners etc.

 

[VauxhallNova]

It’s political spin, that’s all.

The loss of route knowledge isn’t just a FG thing - it’s a DfT policy in order to reduce training costs. You just notice it more with FG because of the diversionary routes their TOCs have traditionally operated over. The DfT also love diagram optimisation packages because it minimises headcount.

They are not bothered about the chaos that it all causes.

The idea that FirstGroup have had this "done to them" is hilarious. I thought TPE said they had enough drivers?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So much for the OLR having its hands full then.

Where did that comment emanate from originally?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The brand is generic, as required by the franchise agreement, so there is no need to change anything.

"Transpennine Express" is of course a British Rail-era brand, first trademarked in 1993. Those trademarks are still owned by DfT, with First TransPennine Express Ltd listed as a licensed user.

 

[RT4038]

Fewer, longer trains......

 

[josh-j]

Seems to me that rather than cutting services substantially to make things work, they should just reach an agreement with staff/unions..

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Fewer, longer trains......

Thast worked well for Cross Country services to the South West, didn't it?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thast worked well for Cross Country services to the South West, didn't it?

Very clever, but that was the reverse tactic. More, shorter trains was their idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fewer, longer trains......

Good.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I always thought the Transpennine express name was coined by Northern Spirit with that great maroon livery!

Overexpansion killed this one. Shame as it could and should have been a shining star.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Overexpansion without:
- firm track access rights
- enough crew
- enough revenue

 

[DanNCL]

This is very interesting. Did anyone notice this?
They haven’t bothered with LNER, Northern or Southeastern, although they weren’t lost under Harper.

They promise it every single time. Did with LNER, did with Northern, did with Southeastern. It’s nonsense intended to appease backbench Tory MPs who are ideologically opposed to the state running things.

The FAQs on the TPE are laughable.
Has "Can I still bring my bike?" ever been asked about the OLR taking over any failed franchise?

You’d be surprised what ‘normals’ sometimes ask!

People have short memories don't they?

Under VTEC morale was run into the ground, they overstretched the HST and 225 Fleet at the time by running additional services e.g. Edinburgh half hourly and a token Sunderland service, and staff shortages among TM and Catering grades were the norm. Essentially the need to pay big premiums affected the service on offer.

Exactly. VTEC weren’t a great operation.

Now it's gone the other way and LNER staff patrol trains with god complexes unrivalled by any other TOC.

This really isn’t the case. The staff are exactly the same as they were with VTEC.

Well exactly - people expecting massive changes (that aren't already in the pipeline) I think will be left disappointed.

Most of the North of England local services are now effectively "nationalised"; it will be interesting to see what people who say "nationalise the railways" think about it once being told about it when they criticise the railway.

Apart from XC, Avanti and the Open Access operators, every TOC north of Manchester is now nationalised.

I have spoken multiple times across other threads about the increasingly arrogant attitude of LNER staff over the recent couple of years, from the condescending treatment of first class customers by the hosts, the pettiness of the red tape brigade at King's Cross, the gobby Twitter team trying to take the moral high ground, etc.

Everything you mention there is exactly the same as it was with VTEC. If anything it was worse with VTEC as you had nonsense advertising constantly shoved in your face at the same time. Such as the Azuma advert that said “it’s like a train and a laser made a baby”.

There is one upside to this, if you consider it a silver lining, another TOC will be able to be FOI'ed. That is sent a Freedom of Ibformation reuwest, being a publicly owned company.

I am sure someone will find that useful.

It’ll be useful for finding out how often TPE actually bother to request ticket acceptance. My strong suspicion is not that often.

 

[Bantamzen]

It only needs one driver to drive a 6-car set.

Fewer, longer trains......

Good.

And if the infrastructure in 2023 (not post TRU) doesn't suit much longer trains? I understand that fewer & longer is the go-to on these forums, but again please remember on parts of their network platform capacity is at a premium, and TPE don't just deliver a long distance service, they also provide commuter services. So fewer & longer will in real terms just equate to fewer. And that leads to less capacity, more crush loading, more delays but with so few services you end up back up at square one but with a fraction of a timetable.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I always thought the Transpennine express name was coined by Northern Spirit with that great maroon livery!

Overexpansion killed this one. Shame as it could and should have been a shining star.

I believe the word Express was coined when BR rolled out Express Sprinters on the route in the early 1990s.

 

[MotCO]

Only observing from afar, what will public ownership actually achieve? Unless there are some experienced, practically-minded, successful rail managers that can be helicoptered in, what will change? Indeed, are there any such managers - the late Adrian Shooter springs to mind, but do any others exist? In the bus world, you could point to Martin Giljbert (now with Luno), Alex Hornsey (now with McGills), Roger Frnch (late of Brighton & Hove) or James French, (late of Reading and First West of England,).

Or the cynic in me suggests that maybe the Minister has seen some potential improvement in services coming soon (maybe more trainees are about to qualify), or there is a slug of investment monies coming, just in time for improvements to be noted in the upcoming General Election where the Red Wall seats could be decisive.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Only observing from afar, what will public ownership actually achieve?

It temporarily pacifies the majority of the long-suffering public who will no doubt hear this and assume things will change for the better.

 

[Moonshot]

Seems to me that rather than cutting services substantially to make things work, they should just reach an agreement with staff/unions..

Not going to happen. As I am on the inside of this, me and my colleagues are of the opinion that nothing will be settled until at least after the next general election. More strike action is inevitable despite the ownership change

 

[Clarence Yard]

The idea that FirstGroup have had this "done to them" is hilarious. I thought TPE said they had enough drivers?

Since 2020 they have been “done to” - it’s been the DfT in charge of all the key decisions! TPE were allowed to recruit, up to a certain level where RDW was assumed, as was the number of “optimised” diagrams.

But you always dance to the proposers tune, even in franchise days, even if you think it is mad. That’s how you get your lucrative contract re-openers when it all goes wrong. FG were masters at extracting value out of franchise change mechanisms - in some cases they were potentially worth more than the original proposition!

They also successfully negotiated their way out of the TPE franchise in 2020 at least cost to themselves. We may not like it but they have been very good at extracting money out of a shambolic and naive DfT.

 

[LYuen]

Apart from XC, Avanti and the Open Access operators, every TOC north of Manchester is now nationalised.

Not sure you mean the chartered Friday service to Euston the Open Access operator, while non-OLR ToC there is also EMR serving Manchester

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hopefully by way of a workable emergency timetable in the first instance.

FTPE have 500+ drivers and more than enough rolling stock and have yet managed to totally screw up what was a reasonable operation. The DfT have also utterly failed in their oversight to hold them accountable and ensure they put in a recovery plan. Thing is for all AWCs failings last year they have largely delivered on their promises so you have to wonder why FTPE couldn't.
DfT will want this to be a success so i do expect timetable to be further hacked back so passengers wont see any benefit.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just looked in my old 1974 timetable, the basic core express service from manchester vic to Leeds was hourly. maybe a step back before trying two steps forward. Concentrate on the core Manchester to Leeds section first leave the rest to others, LNER Cross Country Northern (yes I know they have their own problems) but now they are under the same control OLR, maybe scope to work togrther (alright i know pigs might fly)

I don't think a 1974 timetable will reflect demand in 2023!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure you mean the chartered Friday service to Euston the Open Access operator, while non-OLR ToC there is also EMR serving Manchester

I think they mean the OA operators on the ECML, which are technically "North of Manchester" though not serving Manchester or points north thereof. EMR serve Manchester itself but then head west.

 

[Clarence Yard]

FTPE have 500+ drivers and more than enough rolling stock and have yet managed to totally screw up what was a reasonable operation. The DfT have also utterly failed in their oversight to hold them accountable and ensure they put in a recovery plan. Thing is for all AWCs failings last year they have largely delivered on their promises so you have to wonder why FTPE couldn't.

The optimised diagram structure and accompanying route knowledge requirement (or rather lack of) would be a good start, then the training backlog and finally the IR situation.

Unless the former is undone, it will remain a very fragile operation, even if the IR situation is resolved.

 

[tomuk]

They promise it every single time. Did with LNER, did with Northern, did with Southeastern. It’s nonsense intended to appease backbench Tory MPs who are ideologically opposed to the state running things.

No it is the law. Apart from Scotland the Minister or WG are required to franchise services. OLR is only temporary.

Apart from XC, Avanti and the Open Access operators, every TOC north of Manchester is now nationalised.

Due to covid and the ERMAs and now NRC all franchises are already nationalised. All that has changed is that the First Group senior maagers\directors will be replaced with consultants appointed by SNC-Lavlin.