Caught using child under 16 railcard ticket

[Trepcose]

I am worried sick so please be kind. I am extremely sorry for my actions and vow to God I would never do that. My son for his school runs has a travel card & GWR ticket between two stations and it is 5 min train ride. Today I had to drop off my car near his school for a service and decided to use his ticket as I figured it would be a hassle to work the ticket machines and no staff would be around. I have never done that so I have learnt my lesson. I just used the train ticket and the railcard with his pic was left at home.

A GWR person stopped me after I entered the station and was very rude with me (rightfully) that what I am doing is fraud using a child ticket. I apologised profusely but he confiscated the ticket and said he would report me to 'revenue' and there is nothing more to it. I then bought a return ticket from the counter and took the train back to my home.

I appreciate I lost a month of my son's valid ticket as it was valid for travel till end of May so will have to fork out money to get that anyway. Got a hard lesson as I have no criminal history. I have never received even a parking or speeding fine in my life!

The GWR ticket guy when he confiscated the ticket he did not ask me for my name or address. QUESTION: Will they be able to send me a notice to my home address without a name/address? I know GWR have my name/address as they asked for it when I got my son the railway card last year but as said I still have his railway card at home. thank you in advance as woried sick...don't want any fraud or criminal history.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It's difficult to know exactly what GWR will do here, I think it will depend on what the 'GWR person' decides to do with the ticket they took off you. There's a number of possibilities:

1. 'GWR person' decides to do nothing with the ticket. You end up having to buy daily tickets for son to get to school which is an inconvenience.
2. 'GWR person' hands the ticket to the revenue protection department. They take no further action because 'GWR person' took no detaiis and 'GER person' maybe wasn't trained to take details from you
3. 'GWR person' hands the ticket into the revenue protection department. They decide to write to you asking for your version of events because they are considering prosecuting you. If this happens I'd say there's a decent prospect of being able to negotiate an out of court settlement as long as you co-operate with them.

I'd have expected your details to have been taken if they were going to follow option 3. That doesn't mean they won't go for this option and there's no way of knowing what they will do - they hold all the cards. If they decide to prosecute they have six months to lay papers before the court so I'm afraid it's a waiting game to see what happens.

If you do get a letter from GWR do come back here and post a copy of it, with personal details redacted, along with your draft reply to it and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[30907]

Nothing to add except that they may well be able to identify the rightful holder of the ticket and therefore the parent, so making option 3 straightforward.

 

[Gloster]

I know even less about this area than most things, but have some thoughts:

Is the ticket just a normal one or does it bear some code which ties it to a specific card?

Is the card one that is tied to a particular person and can therefore be traced back without further details being needed?

Was the card issued directly by GWR, by a school or by an education authority?

I would presume that if a pass is issued by a school or authority to an underage person, somebody must be named as a responsible adult and could be traced.

As said, I know nothing about this subject, so please ignore if the comments seem daft.

 

[Trepcose]

Thank you for the comments. I just don't know how I will sleep tonight onwards. My world seems to be crumbling down...worried sick. Anyone with a railcard ticket can they confirm if there are any bar codes etc ways to link it back to the address/parent's name? The GWR guy was quite feisty but I am hoping he was just threatening prosecution though he did say someone from 'revenue' will reach out.

@Hadders why do I need to buy daily tickets? Since I have my son's railcard on me can I not issue a new season ticket for him on the same railcard?

Lastly given the history please advise if GWR historically/generally go for out of court settlements? Is there a criminal record of out of court settlements?

 

[Hadders]

There's nothing stopping you from buying another season ticket.

GWR are normally one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to out of court settlements. Here's a link to their Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy which might be worth a read.

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/plan-journey/revenue-protection-policy/revenue-protection-policy.pdf?la=en

There is no criminal record associated with an out of court settlement. You only get a criminal record if you end up going to court and plead guilty or are found guilty by the court following a trial.

 

[gray1404]

I am not sure they will be able to contact you if the person did not take your details.

From your account though I am not even sure if an offence was committed as you had not boarded the train at the point you were stopped. Was it a barriered station?

Furthermore I am assuming that the season ticket is in the name of your son so there is nothing stopping him from reporting it as lost or stolen and requesting a replacement.

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure they will be able to contact you if the person did not take your details.

From your account though I am not even sure if an offence was committed as you had not boarded the train at the point you were stopped. Was it a barriered station?

Furthermore I am assuming that the season ticket is in the name of your son so there is nothing stopping him from reporting it as lost or stolen and requesting a replacement.

As said, I am not an expert, but I think that would be a very bad idea if there is any way that the ticket can be traced back.

 

[Trepcose]

@gray1404 thank you for making me a little assured with your line of reasoning. You are right in the sense that I did not board the train. As soon as I entered the station, put my 'son's ticket' in it opened and the GWR person stopped me and confiscated the ticket. He was harsh threatening consequences but as I mentioned earlier didn't take my contact details though I did apologise to him and admitted it was my son's ticket. I then proceeded to the ticket counter and paid for a ticket for journey home.

@Gloster thank you for your queries. The ticket was bought by wife as a regular school term renewal at a train station manned by GWR staff. I unfortunately don't recall if the season ticket bears a code that links it to the bar code or any other identification linked to my son's picture bearing railcard which I still have. When you say 'very bad' idea that ticket can be traced back, what do you mean?

@Hadders thank you for your feedback

 

[Gloster]

@gray1404 thank you for making me a little assured with your line of reasoning. You are right in the sense that I did not board the train. As soon as I entered the station, put my 'son's ticket' in it opened and the GWR person stopped me and confiscated the ticket. He was harsh threatening consequences but as I mentioned earlier didn't take my contact details though I did apologise to him and admitted it was my son's ticket. I then proceeded to the ticket counter and paid for a ticket for journey home.

@Gloster thank you for your queries. The ticket was bought by wife as a regular school term renewal at a train station manned by GWR staff. I unfortunately don't recall if the season ticket bears a code that links it to the bar code or any other identification linked to my son's picture bearing railcard which I still have. When you say 'very bad' idea that ticket can be traced back, what do you mean?

@Hadders thank you for your feedback

I underline that I am not an expert, but the ticket was not lost or stolen: it was confiscated by a member of staff, which I believe that they are legally entitled to do. If you say that it was lost or stolen, you are making a false statement and the railway would know that. In my non-expert opinion this is likely to make the railway consider more severe action than they might otherwise have done.

 

[Doubleplus]

Nothing to add except that they may well be able to identify the rightful holder of the ticket and therefore the parent, so making option 3 straightforward.

But identifying the ’rightful holder’ of the ticket does not positively identify the passenger who attempted to travel with it. You might assume that it was “therefore the parent” but that’s not a sufficient standard of proof. The ticket could have been lost, stolen, borrowed or otherwise have been used in error, so it could have been anyone trying to use it.

Secondly, if the ticket was confiscated before the passenger had even stepped on the train - well, then surely no offence has actually been committed in the eyes of the law. That may well be why they didn’t even bother to take a name and address, because - please correct me if I’m wrong - there’s not a damn thing that they can do, other than confiscate the ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Secondly, if the ticket was confiscated before the passenger had even stepped on the train - well, then surely no offence has actually been committed in the eyes of the law

Failing to show a valid ticket on request is a criminal offence; you don’t have to board a train to commit this offence, merely be on the railway property.

. That may well be why they didn’t even bother to take a name and address, because - please correct me if I’m wrong - there’s not a damn thing that they can do, other than confiscate the ticket.

I expect the OP will hear nothing further, but mostly because whoever dealt with them was not an RPI and cannot collect evidence such as a PACE interview in this way.

 

[Bertie the bus]

As it is a season ticket I assume their is a code on both the ticket and photocard linking them. If so they will easily be able to contact you.

As for the suggestion of reporting it lost or stolen. Best not take that "advice" unless you want this to become a police matter as well as a railway one.

 

[gray1404]

Oh dear you put the ticket into a ticket barrier. That shows intent to use it I'm afraid. However the good news is that the person you spoke to did not take your details so it would be very difficult for them to report you or prove who was stopped.

I am not suggesting for one moment the OP reports the ticket as lost or stolen. But what I am saying is could the son do this and it is their ticket and it has indeed been taken and used without their consent?

I suspect you will hear nothing further on this one.

 

[Hadders]

The OP says in the opening post:

GWR have my name/address as they asked for it when I got my son the railway card last year

So I think extreme care should be taken if reporting the ticket lost etc.

 

[gray1404]

The OP says in the opening post:



So I think extreme care should be taken if reporting the ticket lost etc.

I agree. For some reason I assumed the ticket would be issued to the son. Yes, exercise caution.

 

[Trepcose]

Thank you all for your point of views. I have no intention of reporting it lost or stolen. I have learnt my lesson and since I didn't use the ticket, the GWR person didn't specifically ask for my name, address I am just hoping (fingers crossed) I don't get served a notice at home and god forbid if I get served a notice I will seek your guidance on this thread

 

[gray1404]

Thank you all for your point of views. I have no intention of reporting it lost or stolen. I have learnt my lesson and since I didn't use the ticket, the GWR person didn't specifically ask for my name, address I am just hoping (fingers crossed) I don't get served a notice at home and god forbid if I get served a notice I will seek your guidance on this thread

I think if you did receive such a notice you might get a bit of a split of opinion on the forum. One half would be confess and ask for an out of court settlement and the other half would be put them to prove. In other words they don't actually have any evidence it was you travelling as your details were not taken on the day.

However this is academic. I personally do not think you will hear anything back and you have learnt your lesson. Good luck!

 

[AdamWW]

Failing to show a valid ticket on request is a criminal offence; you don’t have to board a train to commit this offence, merely be on the railway property..

I do not think that is correct.

Unless in a compulsory ticket area, there is no requirement to be able to show a valid ticket in order to be on railway property.

I can walk onto the platform at my local station to get to the ticket machine without committing a criminal offence, as can anybody who wants to see me off on a train or indeed just take photographs from the platform.

If there are revenue protection staff there they might ask to see my ticket, but if I don't show them one all they can do is prevent me from entering the station (which would be daft if I said I needed to use the ticket machine) or watch to make sure that I don't then get on a train.

I presume that putting a ticket you're not entitled to in a barrier is evidence of an attempt at fare evasion, but I don't see how it can be the offence of failing to show a ticket on request.

 

[AlterEgo]

I do not think that is correct.

Unless in a compulsory ticket area, there is no requirement to be able to show a valid ticket in order to be on railway property.

I can walk onto the platform at my local station to get to the ticket machine without committing a criminal offence, as can anybody who wants to see me off on a train or indeed just take photographs from the platform.

If there are revenue protection staff there they might ask to see my ticket, but if I don't show them one all they can do is prevent me from entering the station (which would be daft if I said I needed to use the ticket machine) or watch to make sure that I don't then get on a train.

I presume that putting a ticket you're not entitled to in a barrier is evidence of an attempt at fare evasion, but I don't see how it can be the offence of failing to show a ticket on request.

To be a bit more clear, you're right - but I wasn't referring to a Bylaw prosecution, but RoRA:

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

By "merely be on the railway property" I should have explained that I meant there was no need to be on a train to commit an offence. Putting a ticket into a barrier or showing it to an authorised person with the clear aim of *trying* to travel is an offence - no need to be caught on the train or even after the fact.

 

[Cantab26]

I am worried sick so please be kind. I am extremely sorry for my actions and vow to God I would never do that. My son for his school runs has a travel card & GWR ticket between two stations and it is 5 min train ride. Today I had to drop off my car near his school for a service and decided to use his ticket as I figured it would be a hassle to work the ticket machines and no staff would be around. I have never done that so I have learnt my lesson. I just used the train ticket and the railcard with his pic was left at home.

A GWR person stopped me after I entered the station and was very rude with me (rightfully) that what I am doing is fraud using a child ticket. I apologised profusely but he confiscated the ticket and said he would report me to 'revenue' and there is nothing more to it. I then bought a return ticket from the counter and took the train back to my home.

I appreciate I lost a month of my son's valid ticket as it was valid for travel till end of May so will have to fork out money to get that anyway. Got a hard lesson as I have no criminal history. I have never received even a parking or speeding fine in my life!

The GWR ticket guy when he confiscated the ticket he did not ask me for my name or address. QUESTION: Will they be able to send me a notice to my home address without a name/address? I know GWR have my name/address as they asked for it when I got my son the railway card last year but as said I still have his railway card at home. thank you in advance as woried sick...don't want any fraud or criminal history.

My advice to you is as follows:

1. Write down an account of what happened (date, time, location, description of what happened and who said what) whilst it is still fresh in your memory. Do not post that account here.
2. Do not contact GWR about this.
3. Do not report the ticket as lost or stolen.
4. If GWR write to you or to your son do not reply. Post a copy of the letter (with personal details and unique reference numbers redacted) here and we can provide further advice for you.

Secondly, if the ticket was confiscated before the passenger had even stepped on the train - well, then surely no offence has actually been committed in the eyes of the law. That may well be why they didn’t even bother to take a name and address, because - please correct me if I’m wrong - there’s not a damn thing that they can do, other than confiscate the ticket.

The OP is in section 5(3)(a) territory so it is vital that he says nothing to GWR in order to avoid potential self-incrimination.

 

[Krokodil]

It's likely that confiscation of the ticket and a stern ticking off will be the end of it. You'll need to head back down to the booking office to sort out a new season ticket for your son.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A GWR person stopped me after I entered the station and was very rude with me (rightfully)

No. Never rightfully. Great Western Railway specifically tell revenue staff when they take them on that even in confrontational situations such as issuing penalty fares or prosecutions, they must maintain good and respectful customer service at all times. It’s in all of their instructions. They should not have been rude to you, although I wouldn’t complain in this particular case as you don’t want to appear obstinate or risk them escalating the issue.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Of course, we all have different thresholds regarding inferring rudeness. Some would think it rude if the staff member didn’t say “hello” or “please” or “sorry to stop you”; others wouldn’t bat an eyelid at anything much short of swearing or insults.

 

[Krokodil]

"Rudely" could mean "sternly" in this case. Language is often open to interpretation

 

[Trepcose]

I am still awaiting receiving the letter. I did manage to renew another season ticket for my son from a ticketing officer today. What is now clear there is a unique code on the generated ticket which is the same code on the picture bearing railway card of my son. Hence if the GWR person who confiscated my ticket wants to send me a notice home they can very well do that even if they didn't ask me for my name, address when GWR guy confiscated the ticket (I did tell him I was the parent).

The GWR person was rude and raised his voice, which attracted attention of others around me and embarrassed me whilst I apologised profusely. He shouted 'you have committed fraud & revenue now will take this up with you!'...'you should have known better!' Anyway thank you for your valuable thoughts. I will share the contents of the letter (with personal details hidden) when I receive it.

 

[Haywain]

I am still awaiting receiving the letter.

You may have to wait quite some time to find out if you are going to receive a letter, but it was never going to arrive over a bank holiday weekend. A train company has up to 6 months to put a matter of this sort before the courts, and it is not unknown for people to only receive a first letter after 3 or 4 months.

What is now clear there is a unique code on the generated ticket which is the same code on the picture bearing railway card of my son.

You son was issued a photocard, and the photocard number appear on the season ticket. This is entirely normal. Train companies are required to maintain a record of season ticket sales, and this allows them to issue duplicates if the original is lost, and to trace season ticket holders if lost tickets are returned to them.