Northern line train evacuation at Clapham Common

[Dave W]

The video I've seen from the platform shows the platform indicators displaying "emergency evacuate immediately"

If you can see that and hear the commotion outside the train, and smell smoke, and sit there patiently following the rules waiting for someone to come down to the platform to open the doors for you, you're a braver person than me. Or stupider. Delete as appropriate.

I'm very conservative when these things circulate as they occasionally do - the panic seems over the top from the comfort of my sofa. But I'm not so sure from the various videos I've seen that I wouldn't be trying to leave in a hurry myself (although I'd hope the door release would occur to me).

Intrigued to see the aftermath - RAIB look dimly on this sort of thing and if their preliminary investigation (I assume there will be one once they are notified of the incident) reveals some procedural shortcomings I expect a full investigation will follow.

 

[Mojo]

The video I've seen from the platform shows the platform indicators displaying "emergency evacuate immediately"

That would have been because customers on the platform operated multiple fire call points, causing the station to go into auto-evac.

 

[357]

I find it highly amusing that many of the people watching this incident and criticising the response from staff are the same people who on other days are asking for driverless trains and unmanned stations.

I've often thought that there are significant shortfalls in LU train evacuation - not only the lack of selective door opening but also situation with egress handles.

I agree they shouldn't be on the inside, as too often I can see them being pulled in a tunnel and someone trying to squeeze down the side of the train, but egress handles on the outside that could be operated by someone on the platform could have helped here and could be a lifesaver in other situations. (Before someone mentions butterfly cocks, they aren't labeled and the public don't know what they are)

 

[Taunton]

New York Subway had a serious train fire in tunnel in 2020, started by a passenger, one hopes some detail is exchanged on emergency procedures. Detail here:

2020 New York City Subway fire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Edsmith]

I find it highly amusing that many of the people watching this incident and criticising the response from staff are the same people who on other days are asking for driverless trains and unmanned stations.

I've often thought that there are significant shortfalls in LU train evacuation - not only the lack of selective door opening but also situation with egress handles.

I agree they shouldn't be on the inside, as too often I can see them being pulled in a tunnel and someone trying to squeeze down the side of the train, but egress handles on the outside that could be operated by someone on the platform could have helped here and could be a lifesaver in other situations. (Before someone mentions butterfly cocks, they aren't labeled and the public don't know what they are)

Has anybody ever seriously suggested that deep level tube stations should be unstaffed?

 

[Turtle]

Not an ideal station for a train full of passengers to quickly bail out from. I could imagine the crowds pushing towards the opposite platform...

So, Mojo, you're sitting in a Tube train, doors closed, it comes to a sudden halt, the carriage fills with what looks like and smells like smoke, you just do what?

 

[matt_world2004]

That would have been because customers on the platform operated multiple fire call points, causing the station to go into auto-evac.

Doesn't matter, all the person inside the train is seeing is a message to evacuate and their carriage filling up with what looks like smoke, combined with an odor of burning. It would not be unreasonable in those circumstances to assume there is a fire

 

[distinctratio]

RAIB should look at this incident and report soonest. They hopefully will look at what would have happened in the event of this really being a fire, look at TFL response on the day by staff, fire evacuation procedures, passenger behaviour, lack of recognition of escape actuation of doors etc etc. It's to serious to ignore. On another matter also how do you get out on to platforms with doors. I have seen no notices anywhere how to operate platform doors in an emergency.

Yes I also hope to hear a response from them soon too, because as you say, how would have this event unfolded had there have been an actual fire?

 

[STINT47]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

 

[Darandio]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

The instructions came via a screen telling them to evacuate immediately, just one person seeing that is setting off a chain of events. To suggest they should be charged with criminal damage is beyond bizarre.

 

[Edsmith]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

Are you for real? They were following instructions.

 

[matt_world2004]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

Why would they be charged with criminal damage . Seeing the sign evacuate immediately and a carriage filling up with what looks like smoke combined with burning. A reasonable person would assume the train is on fire, or there is a fire near enough to pose a threat to their safety


Section 5 of the criminal damage act 1971 allows damage to property as an act of self defence. The belief doesn't need to be justified just reasonable

 

[physics34]

In a way, nobody got hurt, nothing burst into flames and people eventually got out, so it all kinda worked ok. You cannot stop a panic... thats what i was taught as a train driver, thats a human behavioural trait.

I do find it asking for trouble to not have internal egresses though... althougg i understand using one in a tunnel could cause more problems.

 

[saxsux]

It's also interesting that the people who are climbing through smashed windows appear to be in the rear car and thus would be right next to a door with a 'break glass in emergency' signed door.

It is surprising how easily supposedly obvious things can be overlooked when you're feeling panicked.

A while ago, I had cause to use the emergency door release on a 158. I broke the cover, pushed the button, and there was an audible hiss and an alarm, but the doors didn't open. I thought it hadn't worked. The instruction on the bottom of the sign is to pry the doors apart, but in the moment it was completely unobvious.


In the video of the 2013 Holland Park incident, you can see passengers on the platform repeatedly pressing the emergency stop button. It's clearly labelled as an emergency stop, but they're obviously expecting it to open the doors and are surprised it isn't working.


I honestly think the ability to understand complex instructions is one of the first things to be lost in a state of panic. If you want to get onto the platform, and can see it right in front of you, exiting through the cab wouldn't be the intuitive choice.

 

[bramling]

It is surprising how easily supposedly obvious things can be overlooked when you're feeling panicked.

A while ago, I had cause to use the emergency door release on a 158. I broke the cover, pushed the button, and there was an audible hiss and an alarm, but the doors didn't open. I thought it hadn't worked. The instruction on the bottom of the sign is to pry the doors apart, but in the moment it was completely unobvious.


In the video of the 2013 Holland Park incident, you can see passengers on the platform repeatedly pressing the emergency stop button. It's clearly labelled as an emergency stop, but they're obviously expecting it to open the doors and are surprised it isn't working.


I honestly think the ability to understand complex instructions is one of the first things to be lost in a state of panic. If you want to get onto the platform, and can see it right in front of you, exiting through the cab wouldn't be the intuitive choice.

One wonders how many people who use the Underground have ever given much thought to what to do in an emergency.

In the situation at Clapham Common, exiting through the cab would be the only immediately available option, but opening the side doors wouldn’t work if the lead cab has a key in. This leaves the only option as exiting through the M door, which would be on top of both the suicide pit and negative rail, so hardly ideal.

It’s a very difficult one to square up. I think an egress device inside the train would cause more problems than it would solve. However making people aware of the butterfly cocks outside the trains is also a problem, as it would be guaranteed to cause misuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the damage caused to the train following the unauthorised evacuation hopefully at least some of the passengers can be identified and charged with criminal damage and or pursued civilly for damages.

in an emergency peopleneed to follow staffinstructions. Panicking helps noo e and makes the situation worse as an be seen on this occasion.

Are you for real? This is TfL's failure, not that of the passengers, and were I one I would happily stand up in Court and defend myself, and potentially even make some kind of counter allegation of health and safety breaches.

Merseyrail fitted egress handles in 1998 (previously it was just the external cocks). The Underground needs to catch up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2023 ==

It’s a very difficult one to square up. I think an egress device inside the train would cause more problems than it would solve. However making people aware of the butterfly cocks outside the trains is also a problem, as it would be guaranteed to cause misuse.

How often are egresses pulled in the tunnel on Thameslink or Merseyrail? How many injuries have been caused? The shallow Tube at least is the same thing.

 

[Towers]

And of course it would be straightforward to have a simple driver override function on an egress in case one were to be operated in a tunnel. Indeed, they could even be set up so as to be inoperable if the train is fully in a tunnel, or even on a door-by-door basis with a balise mounted on the tunnel mouths. This is pretty basic stuff these days.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How do you propose to fund such a thing for trains that are over 50 years old?

 

[185143]

How do you propose to fund such a thing for trains that are over 50 years old?

And (19)95 Stock is how old?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Oh sorry I thought the proposition was for LU and not just the Northern line.

 

[bahnause]

I assume that several parties are involved in a safety concept, including a safety authority which must approve the whole thing.

Such concepts are always compromises, because the circumstances of incidents are never identical and usually do not stick to the script. I assume that stopping the train half in the tunnel and half in the station was not the best starting position and I wonder if this was an "expected condition" or not.

Depending on the situation and the equipment, egress handles make sense or not. Example: train is on fire in a tunnel -> passenger uses emergency brake -> driver overrides emergency brake to pull out of the tunnel -> passenger does not understand why train is not stopping and uses egress handle instead of changing car -> driver stops in the tunnel because of an open door. You're already in a situation you don't really want to be in and the beautiful safety concept is half dead already. But if you have a nice and safe rescue path on at least one side of the tunnel, you might want to have them.

Yesterday we had a training on "fire in the train in the tunnel", and sometimes there are situations that are just not described in the rule book. Especially in situations with self-rescue concepts, the passengers have to do their part. Just like in aeroplanes, the safety instructions are not just there to fill empty space.

 

[Dstock7080]

I assume that stopping the train half in the tunnel and half in the station was not the best starting position and I wonder if this was an "expected condition" or not.

That would be what is expected of an ATO train departing a station with a (or more) PEA passenger emergency alarms operated.

 

[357]

I assume that several parties are involved in a safety concept, including a safety authority which must approve the whole thing.

Such concepts are always compromises, because the circumstances of incidents are never identical and usually do not stick to the script. I assume that stopping the train half in the tunnel and half in the station was not the best starting position and I wonder if this was an "expected condition" or not.

Depending on the situation and the equipment, egress handles make sense or not. Example: train is on fire in a tunnel -> passenger uses emergency brake -> driver overrides emergency brake to pull out of the tunnel -> passenger does not understand why train is not stopping and uses egress handle instead of changing car -> driver stops in the tunnel because of an open door. You're already in a situation you don't really want to be in and the beautiful safety concept is half dead already. But if you have a nice and safe rescue path on at least one side of the tunnel, you might want to have them.

Yesterday we had a training on "fire in the train in the tunnel", and sometimes there are situations that are just not described in the rule book. Especially in situations with self-rescue concepts, the passengers have to do their part. Just like in aeroplanes, the safety instructions are not just there to fill empty space.

Mainline egress handles don't open the doors if the train is moving, and can be overridden the same way as a passenger alarm.

The train was complying with the rule book, in that it was departing a platform when the alarm was pulled - the train should stop in this situation instead of continuing to the next station.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Any more information on what actually caused the initial panic? Presumably there was nothing to indicate a potential fire whilst the train was stationary in the platforms, or else you would pull the passcom and/or get off the train before it attempted to depart? I'm just puzzled as to how, without an actual fire, you would go from no sign of smoke, to smoke filled carriages before half of the train is even out of the platform, to no sign of smoke when people start to evacuate the train.

 

[Tubeboy]

Smell of brake dust which can smell of burning. Also considering it’s the Northen line, the air vents were probably full of tunnel dust and other nasty things which blew out into the saloons causing the panic.

 

[Edsmith]

I don't know why people keep using the word 'panic'...........it all looks pretty calm to me on the video footage, people were just getting off the train the only way they could.

 

[bahnause]

Mainline egress handles don't open the doors if the train is moving, and can be overridden the same way as a passenger alarm.

It depends very much on the regulations. In some of our trains they will open the doors at speed.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I don't know why people keep using the word 'panic'...........it all looks pretty calm to me on the video footage, people were just getting off the train the only way they could.

Getting off a train that they didn't need to get off...

 

[Edsmith]

Getting off a train that they didn't need to get off...

Just the sort of ridiculous comment I'd expect.

 

[matt_world2004]

Getting off a train that they didn't need to get off...

They didn't know that all evidence available at the time was that they very much needed to get off