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And isn’t this pretty much the same as a vote on the deal.
people have voted to continue strike action would you vote yes to continued strike action if you was going to vote yes on the pay offer?
Aren’t you more likely to send a message of no further strikes vote as a indication you want a vote on the deal.
The results are pretty clear cut and must be seen as a confirmation in the RMTs position to reject the RDG offer. The strength of feeling seems unresolved on the train operating companies. Alot of Unions would give their right arm for the turnout / YES vote on continuing strike action which RMT has achieved.
The issue now is how the hell does this get resolved going forward? Will the govt use the so-called reserved powers of the Secretary of State to dismiss all staff and re-employ them on new contracts ?
Later clarification? It's spelt out as clear as day in the agreement that the current dispute would cease following a successful referendum result. It's equally clear about how a new ballot could then be instigated.
At some point the government is going to have to step in to sort all this out, simply because of the damage it is doing to growth, the economy and GDP. At some point economics will have to overtake the anti worker ideology and a reasonable offer made to rail staff (4 or 5 percent with no strings attactched).
At some point the government is going to have to step in to sort all this out, simply because of the damage it is doing to growth, the economy and GDP. At some point economics will have to overtake the anti worker ideology and a reasonable offer made to rail staff (4 or 5 percent with no strings attactched).
Well there is hopefully only 1 year to hold out. Id like to think the inevitable Labour government in 2024 would like to hit the ground running and sort out the economic mess the Tories are creating right now.
The offer has already changed from the farce that was first put forward, so there’s no reason to suppose it can’t improve further. I admire the RMT for carrying on - that election is getting steadily closer. If it was six months earlier, I suspect this would all have been sorted, more’s the pity!
Well there is hopefully only 1 year to hold out. Id like to think the inevitable Labour government in 2024 would like to hit the ground running and sort out the economic mess the Tories are creating right now.
Well there is hopefully only 1 year to hold out. Id like to think the inevitable Labour government in 2024 would like to hit the ground running and sort out the economic mess the Tories are creating right now.
I'd love to believe the next government can make a difference, but they need to agree a frictionless trade deal with the UK's largest trading partners that is domestically politically acceptable, and build 5 million houses overnight before they can even think about trying to fix the economic mess.
At some point the government is going to have to step in to sort all this out, simply because of the damage it is doing to growth, the economy and GDP. At some point economics will have to overtake the anti worker ideology and a reasonable offer made to rail staff (4 or 5 percent with no strings attactched).
The Government have stepped in, that’s why we are in this mess!
I don’t think they think this dispute is doing significant damage to the economy. It’s not helping the DfT’s budget and that is giving the DfT the justification for continually trying to push their agenda through.
A cynic may suggest rail strikes will be a long way down the list. Essentially sorting the rail strikes only helps those who have voted Labour anyway.
Far more likely is a drive on the NHS and Education with a message that Labour is not beholden to unions.
I may be wrong, but if it was me running the RMT I would be seeking the route that involved the least possible strikes. Noting here mandates and strikes are different things.
I may be wrong, but if it was me running the RMT I would be seeking the route that involved the least possible strikes. Noting here mandates and strikes are different things.
Yes, one of the better strategies is to call a large number of strikes and then cancel them at short notice so that they get the disruption 'for free', so long as the unions are squeaky clean on the legality of doing that.
Later clarification? It's spelt out as clear as day in the agreement that the current dispute would cease following a successful referendum result. It's equally clear about how a new ballot could then be instigated.
It wasn’t clear that RDG expected the RMT to declare the dispute over *before* the details had been finalised. The pay and the T&Cs are linked, but the RDG wanted the staff to vote on a pay deal without knowing what strings were attached.
It was a cheap trick from RDG and those types of shenanigans shred any goodwill with negotiators. Which is why we’re back where we are.
This is not the first time RDG- at the behest of the government- has tried to pull a cheap trick at the 11th hour. It’s almost as though the government don’t want a negotiated settlement…
A cynic may suggest rail strikes will be a long way down the list. Essentially sorting the rail strikes only helps those who have voted Labour anyway.
Far more likely is a drive on the NHS and Education with a message that Labour is not beholden to unions.
I may be wrong, but if it was me running the RMT I would be seeking the route that involved the least possible strikes. Noting here mandates and strikes are different things.
It wasn’t clear that RDG expected the RMT to declare the dispute over *before* the details had been finalised. The pay and the T&Cs are linked, but the RDG wanted the staff to vote on a pay deal without knowing what strings were attached.
It was a cheap trick from RDG and those types of shenanigans shred any goodwill with negotiators. Which is why we’re back where we are.
This is not the first time RDG- at the behest of the government- has tried to pull a cheap trick at the 11th hour. It’s almost as though the government don’t want a negotiated settlement…
No, they don’t *care* that this dispute is going significant damage to the economy. They’ve already admitted that its cost more than settling would have done.
This is the second or third time they’ve made RDG put a clause in at the 11th hour that they know fine well will just upset the unions. It has to be deliberate.
Yes, one of the better strategies is to call a large number of strikes and then cancel them at short notice so that they get the disruption 'for free'.
Just need to be careful with that strategy as not to be labelled childish. Presently the government are coming out of this looking the most childish.
It would also be quite nice to see more being made of the main reasons the changes to the working conditions would either (a) not be acceptable in other industries, or (b) have clear negative impacts on journeys.
I suspect that it is too easy to make the dispute feel like it is about pay, when the message on here is that it is very much not a pay dispute.
A statement along the lines of "we are reluctantly willing to accept the pay element of the deal, but are concerned about the implications of the accompanying changes" would help focus minds. If I have missed such a statement then maybe that statement needs to be louder.
Yes, one of the better strategies is to call a large number of strikes and then cancel them at short notice so that they get the disruption 'for free', so long as the unions are squeaky clean on the legality of doing that.
Things like this, or a book on 1200 - 1200 strike, haven't really been taken forward which is interesting. I know some branches have made similar suggestions.
Yes, there will be some overcrowded 150s running to keep Wales moving whilst England is suffering. I do not want anyone thinking Wales is rosy, or that TfW have not completely hashed up the transition to 197s on the Marches. Lest we also forget the nationalised TfW left the Bidston-Wrexham line without trains. Indeed, seeing all the parts of the 67+MK4 sets in pieces across Landore at the moment one may wonder whether there are enthusiasts running TfW instead.
I know some on here will see nationalisation as the answer, or would like to believe that Labour are the answer. Both are present in Wales, but aside from the fact that there will be trains on strike dates Wales is not enjoying Halcyon days of train travel.
I know some on here will see nationalisation as the answer, or would like to believe that Labour are the answer. Both are present in Wales, but aside from the fact that there will be trains on strike dates Wales is not enjoying Halcyon days of train travel.
It would also be quite nice to see more being made of the main reasons the changes to the working conditions would either (a) not be acceptable in other industries, or (b) have clear negative impacts on journeys.
It is a shame that there isn't an easier way to link the impact of the industrial action to a demonstration of the way the railway would be a worse place if the T&C changes were enacted.
or that TfW have not completely hashed up the transition to 197s on the Marches. Lest we also forget the nationalised TfW left the Bidston-Wrexham line without trains
I don’t think we can blame the Welsh Government for the 175s deciding to become mobile barbecues and for Vivarail going bust.
I don’t think anyone thinks Labour are the answer to everything and the path to the sunlit uplands. But it’d be nice to have a government that was willing and able to negotiate in good faith and with honesty, rather than trashing the economy and damaging commuters in order to have their Scargill Moment.
I know some on here will see nationalisation as the answer, or would like to believe that Labour are the answer. Both are present in Wales, but aside from the fact that there will be trains on strike dates Wales is not enjoying Halcyon days of train travel.
Be careful what you wish for. A labour government in this country would be an absolute nightmare!! If people are hanging around awaiting for the GE thinking all problems are going to be solved then think again or you'll be very disappointed people.
I don’t think we can blame the Welsh Government for the 175s deciding to become mobile barbecues and for Vivarail going bust.
I don’t think anyone thinks Labour are the answer to everything and the path to the sunlit uplands. But it’d be nice to have a government that was willing and able to negotiate in good faith and with honesty, rather than trashing the economy and damaging commuters in order to have their Scargill Moment.
I think we can (off topic and there are many threads about it) because it was the decision to reduce maintenance and base the 197 fleet in Chester that caused the problem. Likewise the 175s going off lease are entirely TfWs responsibility.
I will agree that we cannot blame TfW for vivarail, but the fact that 150s were borrowed from Bidston to run the Marches is a direct consequence of the failure to maintain the 175s and therefore TfW are entirely accountable for what has happened.
I am sorry if you think that somehow the incoming Labour government will be any different to Blair's New Labour. There will be too much pleasing the city and keeping the economic credibility to be seen giving in to unions, especially the rail unions.
Best that will come out of a Labour government is slightly fewer cuts, because they know it becomes awkward for the RMT to be seen as going against Labour so early into their term. I may be wrong, but having watched the geographies of discontent develop under Labour I cannot see how things will be any different this time around.
The public will be looking at Labour on the NHS and Education, rail will be so far down the list...
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Rightly, wrongly, or otherwise the Election is in December 2024 under the Fixed-terms Parliament Act 2011. No amount of wishing it were different will get a government trailing badly in the polls to go to the vote any earlier than the end of the 5 years.
Rightly, wrongly, or otherwise the Election is in December 2024 under the Fixed-terms Parliament Act 2011. No amount of wishing it were different will get a government trailing badly in the polls to go to the vote any earlier than the end of the 5 years.
It isn’t about “giving into unions”, the current situation has come about because of a complete refusal to negotiate in good faith. The government even pretended the dispute was nothing to do with them for many months.
Rightly, wrongly, or otherwise the Election is in December 2024 under the Fixed-terms Parliament Act 2011. No amount of wishing it were different will get a government trailing badly in the polls to go to the vote any earlier than the end of the 5 years.
Incorrect. The Fixed Term Parliament Act has been repealed. The PM can call an election whenever he wants, subject to dissolution of Parliament being no more than 5 years after the last general election. And if that happens, dissolution in mid-December 2024 would mean a general election in January 2025.
Incorrect. The Fixed Term Parliament Act has been repealed. The PM can call an election whenever he wants, subject to dissolution of Parliament being no more than 5 years after the last general election. And if that happens, dissolution in mid-December 2024 would mean a general election in January 2025.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
It's spelt out as clear as day in the agreement that the current dispute would cease following a successful referendum result. It's equally clear about how a new ballot could then be instigated.
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