New Southern timetable and class 313 replacement

[Andy1673]

Hi
next Southern timetable will be the first one after final retirement of 313s
What exactly will replace them? 377/3 only or a mix of 3 and 4 cars?
Will we see class 387 workings on Coastways or on Brighton Main line other than Gatwick Express?
Will 377s 4+3+3 formations remain on some metro services or all 377/3 will move to Brighton?
Thanks in advance!

 

[JonathanH]

What exactly will replace them? 377/3 only or a mix of 3 and 4 cars?

The remaining 313 workings are replaced by 377/3s being diagrammed to work those services, although the article referred to below indicates that Portsmouth services will be 4-car units.

Will 377s 4+3+3 formations remain on some metro services or all 377/3 will move to Brighton?

There is an article about the Southern plans in the current Modern Railways. The workings via Tulse Hill generally move from single 5-car units to 6-377 formations, with 8-car formations o the busiest services. 377/7s move to the Watford service. There will be fewer 4+3+3 formations, but it sounds like 377/3s will have work both on the coast and in the Metro area.

 

[Andy1673]

The remaining 313 workings are replaced by 377/3s being diagrammed to work those services, although the article referred to below indicates that Portsmouth services will be 4-car units.


There is an article about the Southern plans in the current Modern Railways. The workings via Tulse Hill generally move from single 5-car units to 6-377 formations, with 8-car formations o the busiest services. 377/7s move to the Watford service. There will be fewer 4+3+3 formations, but it sounds like 377/3s will have work both on the coast and in the Metro area.

Thank you! Didn`t know about this article.
If so 377/3s will be very hardly used.
all 377/2s likely will work together with the other 4 cars 377s with no any dedicated diagrams.

 

[JonathanH]

If so 377/3s will be very hardly used.

I'm sure the same number of 377/3s will be used as now, just on different services and in 3-car formations on the coast and 6-car formations in the metro area, rather than as part of 10-car formations.

The whole point of Southern's approach is to maximise the use of their fleet and prioritise capacity within that fleet where it is most needed.

 

[Andy1673]

I'm sure the same number of 377/3s will be used as now, just on different services and in 3-car formations on the coast and 6-car formations in the metro area, rather than as part of 10-car formations.

The whole point of Southern's approach is to maximise the use of their fleet and prioritise capacity within that fleet where it is most needed.

We will see it soon )) Southern can maximise use of theit 4-car 377s fleet (64+75+15=154). Their weekday`s allocation could be approx 135-140 units that is normal for the quantity, age and reliability of that class. Some 387s also used on non-GX services.
Actually loss of 46 class 455 was more worse for Southern than loss of 313s.

 

[JonathanH]

Actually loss of 46 class 455 was more worse for Southern than loss of 313s.

Great for Southern, perhaps not so much some of its passengers, although on the plus side, the loss of both fleets has resulted in all passengers using modern trains.

 

[Andy1673]

Great for Southern, perhaps not so much some of its passengers, although on the plus side, the loss of both fleets has resulted in all passengers using modern trains.

 

[jojoseph72]

I'm sure the same number of 377/3s will be used as now, just on different services and in 3-car formations on the coast and 6-car formations in the metro area, rather than as part of 10-car formations.

So just spoke to my source, metro SN service will be see quite a bit of changes.

Monday - Friday Timetable for Metro service should be:

London Bridge via Tulse Hill services should be lengthened from 5 to 6 coaches.
Cats and Tats will be mix of 8/10 throughout the day.
Dorking/Horsham will be 8/10 peak and 5/8 off peak.
East Grinstead will be 8/12 peak and 12 off peak (service is hourly).
Epsom Downs will be 8 all day.
London Bridge to Epsom will be 8 peak and 4 off peak.
Victoria to West Croydon/London Bridge will be 8/10 all day.
Watford Junction service will be 5 all day.

I think that’s all the metro services, let me know if I missed a service off.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So current Coastway services were (until 313 withdrawal started gathering pace)

Southampton Brighton (4-377)
Portsmouth Brighton (4-377/3-313)
Portsmouth/Bognor Littlehampton (3-313)
Brighton Seaford (3-313)
Brighton Hastings (4-377/4-387)

What will now be 3-377, and what will stay 4-377?

I’d also be interested to know where the surplus 377/6 will go. If 5-377 are being removed from South Bermondsey routes and the /7 are going to Watford, what happens to the freed /6? The other /6 work Dorking Horsham of course, but I don’t see there being many other services for the newly available ones to go?

 

[OliverH68]

I’d also be interested to know where the surplus 377/6 will go. If 5-377 are being removed from South Bermondsey routes and the /7 are going to Watford, what happens to the freed /6? The other /6 work Dorking Horsham of course, but I don’t see there being many other services for the newly available ones to go?

They'll be on the Caterham/Tattenhams

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So just spoke to my source, metro SN service will be see quite a bit of changes.

Monday - Friday Timetable for Metro service should be:

London Bridge via Tulse Hill services should be lengthened from 5 to 6 coaches.
Cats and Tats will be mix of 8/10 throughout the day.
Dorking/Horsham will be 8/10 peak and 5/8 off peak.
East Grinstead will be 8/12 peak and 12 off peak (service is hourly).
Epsom Downs will be 8 all day.
London Bridge to Epsom will be 8 peak and 4 off peak.
Victoria to West Croydon/London Bridge will be 8/10 all day.
Watford Junction service will be 5 all day.

I think that’s all the metro services, let me know if I missed a service off.

12 on the Grinsteads is wasteful in the off peak 8's would be more than sufficient. Likewise the Tats couldn't even fill a single coach beyond Purley during the off peak yet the main liners ex Gatwick are often full and standing.

 

[Andy1673]

12 on the Grinsteads is wasteful in the off peak 8's would be more than sufficient. Likewise the Tats couldn't even fill a single coach beyond Purley during the off peak yet the main liners ex Gatwick are often full and standing.

Southern tends to use their 5-car fleet on the metro services not on the mainline (weekdays). One of the reasons for that maintaining of 377/6/7 at Selhurst and Stewarts Lane depots.

 

[Sm5]

Epsom Downs will be 8 all day.
London Bridge to Epsom will be 8 peak and 4 off peak.

irony in that.

Epsom Downs I dont just have the choice of which empty seat I want, but which entirely empty carriage I want.

Yet Epsom services from London Bridge are usually fairly well loaded all day long.

The worst part is Downs is all shacks and lamposts too, Epsoms are in Sutton in c30 mins, hence why its better loaded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

Southern tends to use their 5-car fleet on the metro services not on the mainline (weekdays). One of the reasons for that maintaining of 377/6/7 at Selhurst and Stewarts Lane depots.

Certainly true on Sutton’s… 4/6/7 are most common.
There was a period of 2/‘s but they are less common now. 1/‘s I never really see at Sutton.

 

[Magdalia]

Cats and Tats will be mix of 8/10 throughout the day.

London Bridge to Epsom will be 8 peak and 4 off peak.

Thanks for this. Bizarrely this involves 2 splits at the end of the morning peak and 2 joins at the start of the evening peak just to save a little bit of mileage. There are no units saved as they just sit around longer at London Bridge.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There was a period of 2/‘s but they are less common now. 1/‘s I never really see at Sutton.

/1 and /4 are the same pool…

 

[PGAT]

There was a period of 2/‘s but they are less common now. 1/‘s I never really see at Sutton.

I’m travelling on a /1 from Sutton right now. If it feels like less, it’s probably because they’re under refurbishment at the moment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m travelling on a /1 from Sutton right now. If it feels like less, it’s probably because they’re under refurbishment at the moment.

That should be coming to the end soon now I believe.

 

[PGAT]

I’m worried about the London Bridge - Epsom services. There is immense school traffic in the Sutton + Wallington area from 3pm which pretty much persists until rush hour, and those “off-peak” services are going to be overcrowded

 

[jojoseph72]

12 on the Grinsteads is wasteful in the off peak 8's would be more than sufficient. Likewise the Tats couldn't even fill a single coach beyond Purley during the off peak yet the main liners ex Gatwick are often full and standing.

Sort of agree with the Grinstead line and Cats and Tats, with Cats and Tats feel like it will be a logistical nightmare to make them 8/10 in peak and another config off peak due to them splitting at Purley.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

Right now for the May Timetable Saturday change (this will be the config they are for the whole day).

London Bridge via Tulse Hill 6 car
Cats and Tats 10 car
Dorking/Horsham 5 car
East Grinstead 8 car
Epsom Downs 8 car
Epsom 4 car

If I’ve missed something off just let me know and I’ll edit it.

 

[Andy1673]

So current Coastway services were (until 313 withdrawal started gathering pace)

Southampton Brighton (4-377)
Portsmouth Brighton (4-377/3-313)
Portsmouth/Bognor Littlehampton (3-313)
Brighton Seaford (3-313)
Brighton Hastings (4-377/4-387)

What will now be 3-377, and what will stay 4-377?

I’d also be interested to know where the surplus 377/6 will go. If 5-377 are being removed from South Bermondsey routes and the /7 are going to Watford, what happens to the freed /6? The other /6 work Dorking Horsham of course, but I don’t see there being many other services for the newly available ones to go?

Judjing on that London Bridge via Tulse Hill services will be 6 car (7x2 377/3s required) and 3 single for Redhill to Tonbridge we can conclude that only Portsmouth-Littlehampton-Bognor and Brighton to Seaford services will be single 377/3 (those 4+3). Totally weekdays 24 377/3s allocated and 4 spare.

 

[Magdalia]

I’m worried about the London Bridge - Epsom services. There is immense school traffic in the Sutton + Wallington area from 3pm which pretty much persists until rush hour, and those “off-peak” services are going to be overcrowded

From my limited experience I'd agree with that.

From my reading of RTT 8 car working restarts with 1555 LBG-EPS and 1645 EPS-LBG.

 

[JonathanH]

Judjing on that London Bridge via Tulse Hill services will be 6 car (7x2 377/3s required)

I think Southern have indicated that there may be a handful of 8-car workings on the highest peak services via Tulse Hill. It appears that all 10-cars will be 5+5 though.

 

[PGAT]

I think Southern have indicated that there may be a handful of 8-car workings on the highest peak services via Tulse Hill. It appears that all 10-cars will be 5+5 though.

The 8 car workings are the 0750 and 0820 from Streatham Hill

 

[Andy1673]

I think Southern have indicated that there may be a handful of 8-car workings on the highest peak services via Tulse Hill. It appears that all 10-cars will be 5+5 though.

Sorry but all Beckenham Junction and East Croydon via Tulse Hill services served all day by the same formations (7 required) without any special peak extras. Start and finish of all those diagrams clear on RTT.

 

[PGAT]

It appears that all 10-cars will be 5+5 though.

Southern have indicated that the London Bridge / West Croydon services will be 8 cars off-peak and 10 in the peak, so where will those extra units come from?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thanks for this. Bizarrely this involves 2 splits at the end of the morning peak and 2 joins at the start of the evening peak just to save a little bit of mileage. There are no units saved as they just sit around longer at London Bridge.

It's all about saving money.

 

[PGAT]

It's all about saving money.

You’re not saving any money by keeping units around at London Bridge doing nothing. It’s all about mileage and longevity of the fleet.

 

[louis97]

You’re not saving any money by keeping units around at London Bridge doing nothing. It’s all about mileage and longevity of the fleet.

You are, the maintenance is all mileage based so if the fleet does less mileage it requires maintenance less frequently. With the fleet as stretched as it is, it makes sense to shorten trains during off peak hours.

 

[jojoseph72]

Southern have indicated that the London Bridge / West Croydon services will be 8 cars off-peak and 10 in the peak, so where will those extra units come from?

Don’t think that’s correct, from memory it a mix of 8/10 throughout the day and not 10 in peak and 8 off peak, can’t see how they have the flexibility within their fleet to do 10 peak and 8 off peak.

I’ll double check though.

 

[PGAT]