Track access charges for railfan tours

[railfan99]

Hopefully most understand that the TOCs' and Network Rail's priorities include facilitating freight and passenger train operations.

However we sometimes focus on heritage mainline trains.

When railway enthusiasts suggest 'it'd have been preferable if the diesel was not attached to the rear of a steam special, but instead operated separately, following the special', the normal rejoinder is 'it adds to the expense.'

Your rail tours aren't particularly cheap: GBP115 to GBP 165 in economy (standard) class per adult without any refreshments or meals seems standard.

Out of interest, what track access charges are typically levied per kilometre, or tonne-kilometre (use Imperial if you prefer) for a single steam-loco hauled say nine car special, and separately if the diesel ran a section behind, versus the steam loco at the front and the diesel at the rear?

Does Network Rail levy different access charges for high speed main lines such as WCML compared to secondary main lines or branch lines?

On a different matter, do the rail tour operators typically pay for the steam (and diesel) loco crews? Are the latter sometimes volunteers who enable the hirer such as Locomotive Services Ltd to charge say Saphos full commercial rates but also pocket what the crew would have cost?

 

[Watershed]

The track access charges are a fairly small part of the picture in comparison with other operating costs, such as crewing (freight operators usually charge at least £1000 a day per driver) and maintainence of old locomotives. They are the same regardless of the line in question, and are determined mostly by reference to the axle weight (i.e. the damage being done to the track). You can find a list of track access charges here.

The only line with higher access charges is HS1 (where they are in fact considerably higher), but as this requires the train to be fitted with the French TVM system (it's essentially an extension of the French high speed network in terms of its design), you're essentially never going to see a railtour on it.

Steam and diesel loco crews will generally be employed either on a 'zero hours' basis or be full-time employees of freight operators who are working some overtime. Depending on the nature of the railtour, some of the onboard staff (such as catering or coach stewards) may be volunteers though.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Charter Operators pay on a train mile basis - currently £1.0891 per train mile for a diesel or electric train, £1.8186 per train mile for steam.

LE moves are £0.9917 per mile for diesel or electric, £1.0756 per mile for steam.

These charges apply for all NR lines.

There are also slot charges which are £425.2604 per journey for diesel or electric, £759.6887 or £1063.8392 per journey for steam, the latter depending on whether the journey is 250 miles or below or above 250 miles respectively.

There is a repeat business slot charge of £76.0101.

How and when slot charges are raised will be found in the respective charter operators Track Access Agreement.

 

[zwk500]

Out of interest, what track access charges are typically levied per kilometre, or tonne-kilometre (use Imperial if you prefer) for a single steam-loco hauled say nine car special, and separately if the diesel ran a section behind, versus the steam loco at the front and the diesel at the rear?

Running the Engine light behind will incur a separate track access cost, whereas with the diesel in the Steam consist it's just charged as a steam train.

Does Network Rail levy different access charges for high speed main lines such as WCML compared to secondary main lines or branch lines?

I don't believe so. however on lighter used lines additional work like hedge cutting or a track inspection may be required, and this can be charged to the Charter operator if certain conditions apply (like the line having been formally declared out of use to normal traffic). In general NR won't charge for this though, as they're supposed to maintain lines ready for use by a Spot-bid from any TOC if required.

On a different matter, do the rail tour operators typically pay for the steam (and diesel) loco crews? Are the latter sometimes volunteers who enable the hirer such as Locomotive Services Ltd to charge say Saphos full commercial rates but also pocket what the crew would have cost?

I believe the drivers have to be paid for the relevant licensing and insurance to all be proper and correct. Drivers still need traction and route knowledge. However other footplate crew including firemen/women might be able to be volunteers, and the support crew are usually volunteers as well. When I rode with the crew behind Tornado, the Drivers were normal DB Cargo freight drivers who were happy to drive a Steam train every now and again, but all the support crew were A1 Trust people. I can't remember the status of all the firing crew.

The commercial arrangements for Engines are very complicated as they are often owned by independent trusts and so move from Operator to Operator for different tours. Then you have some independent promoters and some promoters who are part of the overall TOC version. e.g. LSL and Saphos are part of the same overall group, Saphos are the marketing/customer people and LSL are the Operations side. Sometimes promoters come up wit htheir own tour ideas, sometimes they'll be approached for private charters. Also the Coaching stock can be owned by third parties not by the TOCs.

 

[railfan99]

Thank you all for the extremely comprehensive information. This is another reason why this forum(a) is excellent.

GBP1000 a day is a lot!

 

[zwk500]

Thank you all for the extremely comprehensive information.

GBP1000 a day is a lot!

There's also planning charges and station access charges to factor in as well. Charter TOCs can also be billed if NR require additional staff onsite for certain moves, like if a goods line is used and points need clipping.

 

[railfan99]

The commercial arrangements for Engines are very complicated as they are often owned by independent trusts and so move from Operator to Operator for different tours. Then you have some independent promoters and some promoters who are part of the overall TOC version. e.g. LSL and Saphos are part of the same overall group, Saphos are the marketing/customer people and LSL are the Operations side. Sometimes promoters come up wit htheir own tour ideas, sometimes they'll be approached for private charters. Also the Coaching stock can be owned by third parties not by the TOCs.

I thought NSW and Victoria (the two states where at present there are reasonably frequent railfan tours) in my country had complex arrangements. But simple compared to England.

Nonetheless, you do an outstanding job, and as I always say, easily the best mainline heritage scene worldwide. Perhaps Germany is #2, but I have far less knowledge of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

Charter Operators pay on a train mile basis - currently £1.0891 per train mile for a diesel or electric train, £1.8186 per train mile for steam.

LE moves are £0.9917 per mile for diesel or electric, £1.0756 per mile for steam.

There are also slot charges which are £425.2604 per journey for diesel or electric, £759.6887 or £1063.8392 per journey for steam, the latter depending on whether the journey is 250 miles or below or above 250 miles respectively.

There is a repeat business slot charge of £76.0101.

One has to love the exactitude

 

[zwk500]

I though NSW and Victoria (the two states where at present there are reasonably frequent railfan tours) in my country had complex arrangements. But simple compared to England.

The UK is very good at constructing the most confusing structures possible.

In a single tour you might have: Customer, Promoter, Coaching Stock owner, Engine Owner, Operating TOC, Network Rail, Station managing TOC, Depot owner and 3 or 4 suppliers (Fuel/coal/water, food, drink, merch etc). If there are particular concerns (60103 or Football train) you may have BTP and local police. Planning for tours can start more than a year advance for the really complex jobs.

 

[LowLevel]

The actual operating crew tend to be paid staff - driver, fireman, inspector, guard and fitter, along with the catering staff on most operators. Stewards and support crews are often volunteers.

They also need a Control function which for the smaller operators tends to be contracted out.

Sometimes operators do their own promoting and operating (see LSL, Vintage Trains, West Coast Railways etc), or a charter company will book a train operating company to run trains for them.

A lot of work goes into running a charter, it's far from a walk in the park, but the results are rewarding.

 

[zwk500]

A lot of work goes into running a charter, it's far from a walk in the park, but the results are rewarding.

Indeed - and people involved are very aware of the effort everybody else puts in to make them work.

 

[Egg Centric]

GBP1000 a day is a lot!

Not really. A train driver is on about £80k +/- £20k, same as a junior software engineer at my place and they would be billed to a client at more or less the same rate.

What I don't understand is the £400-1000 fixed slot fee. It feels like it should be much more elastic at both ends - at the "cheap" end then, especially if short notice and distance, not really involving much more than chatting to a signaller. While at the long distance end surely involving potenially many man days of work?

 

[zwk500]

What I don't understand is the £400-1000 fixed slot fee. It feels like it should be much more elastic at both ends - at the "cheap" end then, especially if short notice and distance, not really involving much more than chatting to a signaller. While at the long distance end surely involving potenially many man days of work?

even for the smallest move, you need to have a valid schedule in TRUST and make sure all the gauge clearance has been done.

Just 'chatting to the signaller' will result in him telling you to stay where you are until you've got something in TRUST (I know because I once had a phone call from a TOC asking why the train I'd offered them got exactly that response).

The £400 fee covers the time for the Gaguing engineer to verify all the platforms and bridges are clear, which may involve checking with structural engineers that the bridges are strong enough. It also pays for the time of the timetable planner to check that there are no other trains or engineering possessions in the way, to put the path into the planning system and to generate the Notice to the signallers telling them what the move is, how its routed, when it needs to be looped etc, and what the restrictions are on it.

 

[DarloRich]

Should the fees for tours be higher? Are the promoters getting a really good deal?