Heathrow Express travellers defecting to Elizabeth line

[Horizon22]

Didcot is only xx13 / xx43 off-peak. At other times, the slower workings are still timed in front of a Heathrow service.

Yes but what I meant was the Didcot services running semi-fast has nothing to do with Heathrow Express at a core level (sure you still have to plan the service approriately for margins, recoccupancy, headways etc.) as that isn't something on the cards yet.

GWR would definitely find a use for an additional 4 fast paths out of Paddington every hour

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==

London Paddington.

Sounds correct because of the Heathrow premium.

 

[matt_world2004]

And the Edinburgh tram to the airport? And the new Luton Airport thingy?

Why should people have to pay a premium just because they happen to be going to an airport anyway?

The Luton Airport thingy is about the same price as the Elizabeth line

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

I wonder whether there's anything stopping them from charging for the presently free inter-terminal transfers. Presumably Heathrow Airport must pay TfL some amount for this free travel area. Not good optics admittedly but they could force use of a bus.

Individual airlines could negotiate with Heathrow Express to have the transfers included for their passengers etc. Much in the same way that several elite tier airline loyalty schemes allow complimentary first class Heathrow Express travel etc.

Probably a tiny drop in the ocean in terms of revenue impact though.

I'm not convinced it's all Elizabeth line though - business travel simply hasn't recovered to the same level as leisure - and is unlikely to - I suspect that this is mainly because of some recallibration post COVID.

HEX won't go - a premium, world class airport (allegedly) does need that premium link into London. HS2 calling there would have been an interesting scenario too.

I think there is a condition within the planning consent of terminal 5 for free inter terminal transfers, I believe they do not pay tfl for the free inter terminal transfers. But instead tfl get a reduction on their track access fees.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And the Stansted Express renamed to remove the word Express

Agreed.

 

[matt_world2004]

Although it’s not a fully informed decision - at least the last time I was there (before EL through running), all the prominent signage (“Direct trains to London!”) pointed HX-ward - to get anywhere else, you’d need to know beforehand what to look for.

The station diagrams on the platform at Heathrow central seem to be done by tfl. They clearly set out where both companies go, are in New Johnston and gives the travel time for both services

 

[Snow1964]

The station diagrams on the platform at Heathrow central seem to be done by tfl. They clearly set out where both companies go, are in New Johnston and gives the travel time for both services

That part is after people have bought a ticket and arrived at platform. Not point where the choice of how to travel is made.

The real clue is on the Internet, just google how to get to London from Heathrow etc, soon suggests HX is expensive and doesn't really go to centre unlike Elizabeth line. I suspect variations exist in many languages and most travellers new to London will check this before jumping on a plane.

That only really leaves HX with inertia of repeat travellers and won't take some of them long to realise there is now another way.

 

[Bluejays]

I'd imagine Heathrow would be quite happy with the situation. Percentage of journeys made by public transport seems to be a huge factor in them being allowed to expand. I'm sure the express will keep going as long as it is still relatively well patronised. But if the Elizabeth line is capable of attracting more people to travel to the airport by rail that's an absolutely massive win for Heathrow themselves

 

[island]

That part is after people have bought a ticket and arrived at platform. Not point where the choice of how to travel is made.

Not necessarily. If someone’s touched in a contactless card they can still decide between HEX/EL when they get to the platform.

 

[matt_world2004]

Heathrow probably make more money in track access fees per Elizabeth line train than they do in ticket revenue per Heathrow express train

 

[Tetchytyke]

When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly Line then HEX was usually a no-brainer. But with Crossrail it has definitely changed.

If you’re only going one way there’s often not much difference between Crossrail and HEX though, booking in advance anyway, with the hefty Heathrow Tax applied to one-way Crossrail journeys. And long-haul passengers often will only be going one way.

 

[InTheEastMids]

There's quite an interesting piece on London Reconnections that I've linked below titled "Slow Death of Heathrow Express" which argues that 2028 looks like when a decision will need to be made about its future, as it seems the article is saying both track access and train leases are up for renewal around that point.

Article also suggests there may be 4 tph Lizzie Line to T5 by then, making 8 tph in total to LHR

It's older than the Times article in post #1 though, so only has anecdotal evidence that usage had fallen.

The Slow Death Of Heathrow Express

When discussing Crossrail, commenters have often speculated on the ultimate demise of Heathrow Express – the private train operating company that runs a non-stop express service between Paddington and Heathrow. This speculation is generally predicated on the belief that once the Elizabeth line...

www.londonreconnections.com

 

[anthony263]

If the western link is ever built could HEX be extended to Reading

 

[Snow1964]

If the western link is ever built could HEX be extended to Reading

Yes, in theory, but then would have same muddle as you get at Brighton. It says Gatwick Express on side of train but isn't really south of Gatwick and ticket availability doesn't match.

Just becomes another service which happens to call at an airport station, but which has obscure ticketing rules for part of its journey.

 

[Gaelan]

The station diagrams on the platform at Heathrow central seem to be done by tfl. They clearly set out where both companies go, are in New Johnston and gives the travel time for both services

True, although (I think) that's still too late to decide on the Piccadilly line, which is still by far the cheapest option.

(In my case, incidentally, I'm almost always traveling north, so the Piccadilly line's one-seat ride to Kings Cross/St Pancras makes paying extra for HX or EL decidedly unappealing - so I've never actually been to the mainline platforms at Heathrow.)

 

[matt_world2004]

If the western link is ever built could HEX be extended to Reading

Yes. There would however be no practical way jf segregating Heathrow express touchins on contactless from Elizabeth line /GwR at that point. And the shortage of platforms at Maidenhead/Twyford would mean no dedicated hex gatelines

 

[edwin_m]

When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly Line then HEX was usually a no-brainer. But with Crossrail it has definitely changed.

If you’re only going one way there’s often not much difference between Crossrail and HEX though, booking in advance anyway, with the hefty Heathrow Tax applied to one-way Crossrail journeys. And long-haul passengers often will only be going one way.

True, although (I think) that's still too late to decide on the Piccadilly line, which is still by far the cheapest option.

(In my case, incidentally, I'm almost always traveling north, so the Piccadilly line's one-seat ride to Kings Cross/St Pancras makes paying extra for HX or EL decidedly unappealing - so I've never actually been to the mainline platforms at Heathrow.)

Indeed. If travelling via Kings Cross HEX offers little time saving over the Piccadilly, costs a lot more, and involves a fairly complicated change at Paddington.

Taking several recent flights to/from T4, I have usually ended up on the Piccadilly - a lot of them are on Sundays when the Elizabeth central section has been closed, and with only 2TPH from T4 it's quicker to go for the Piccadilly if you've just missed one. Fortunately there are departure screens at the main line station entrance so I know to turn back and head for the Piccadilly at the other end of the terminal.

 

[Mikey C]

That part is after people have bought a ticket and arrived at platform. Not point where the choice of how to travel is made.

The real clue is on the Internet, just google how to get to London from Heathrow etc, soon suggests HX is expensive and doesn't really go to centre unlike Elizabeth line. I suspect variations exist in many languages and most travellers new to London will check this before jumping on a plane.

That only really leaves HX with inertia of repeat travellers and won't take some of them long to realise there is now another way.

Exactly. People don't fly into Heathrow and then think about how to get into Central London. The Liz Line is a well know construction project, every guidebook, every internet article about London's public transport connections will have mentioned it.

 

[miklcct]

I will fly from Heathrow on the coming weekend. Last time I used the airport (Aug 2022) I used a very convoluted route (i.e. tube with mutiple changes to avoid zone 1) to achieve the minimum possible fare to the airport (£1.35 with Railcard discount in 2023 prices) despite the Heathrow Express being the fastest way, while the previous time I used it I used Elizabeth line (Sep 2021) just to try out the new trains (£8.70 from King's Cross St Pancras in 2023 prices).

Comparing the two, the EL trains are much nicer to ride compared to the tube trains on the long slow journey on the Piccadilly. I will fly again the coming weekend from Heathrow and I'm still deciding where my journey will begin and which route to use. However, Google Maps still suggest Heathrow Express as the fastest (by a significant margin) from all of Gospel Oak (Overground to West Hampstead, Jubilee to Baker Street, Hammersmith & City to Paddington), Cricklewood (Bus 16 to Paddington) and Dollis Hill (again, starting with Jubilee). Even starting from Mill Hill, Google suggests that by swapping to Heathrow Express off the Elizabeth line can save me 18 minutes then staying on it.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes. There would however be no practical way jf segregating Heathrow express touchins on contactless from Elizabeth line /GwR at that point. And the shortage of platforms at Maidenhead/Twyford would mean no dedicated hex gatelines

You could maybe send someone down the train scanning everyone's cards and uploading the use of Hex onto the system, but that would need a lot of staff to get down the train in the time available.

 

[zwk500]

Yes. There would however be no practical way jf segregating Heathrow express touchins on contactless from Elizabeth line /GwR at that point. And the shortage of platforms at Maidenhead/Twyford would mean no dedicated hex gatelines

You could have an on-train validator if the stock is dedicated to the HEx

 

[matt_world2004]

You could have an on-train validator if the stock is dedicated to the HEx

Why would someone touch that if it costs them more money and it seems an awfully custom solution for one line and the current system for segregating Elizabeth line and hex fares at Paddington doesn't even work properly

Neither does it work properly at Victoria for Gatwick express/Southern

 

[Taunton]

When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly Line then HEX was usually a no-brainer.

Actually not. The Piccadilly had (has) various upsides, such as transfers to other Underground lines, and a greater frequency/less waiting time. From Canary Wharf by Jubilee/Piccadilly, it was as quick from station to airport terminal - and of course much cheaper. The Underground fare from Heathrow takes you anywhere in London for 5.60, even to Upminster; the same as you would have to pay just going on from Paddington after the HEx.

It also, surprisingly, became more reliable, as with any event on the GWML one of the first responses in more recent times has become knock the HEx down to half-hourly, as happened again last week.

Sure, now the Liz Line has usurped that particular run. But still true for elsewhere.

 

[Gaelan]

Why would someone touch that if it costs them more money

Threat of fare inspectors catching them on the train without having done so? Admittedly, it's easy to see people taking that chance anyway.

 

[matt_world2004]

Threat of fare inspectors catching them on the train without having done so? Admittedly, it's easy to see people taking that chance anyway.

The current oyster conditions of use only require someone to touch in and out at the beginning and end of the journey

Heathrow Airport would have to pay to change those conditions of use and to ensure customers are adequately informed.

Plus your adding further complications to an already complicated ticketing system. For whom the majority of users do not understand the inns and outs of oyster or may not even speak English as a first language

We should be striving to make the ticketing system easy to understand and simple ,particularly from airports Not more complicated

 

[Gaelan]

The current oyster conditions of use only require someone to touch in and out at the beginning and end of the journey

Heathrow Airport would have to pay to change those conditions of use and to ensure customers are adequately informed.

Plus your adding further complications to an already complicated ticketing system. For whom the majority of users do not understand the inns and outs of oyster or may not even speak English as a first language

We should be striving to make the ticketing system easy to understand and simple ,particularly from airports Not more complicated

All very fair points.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. If travelling via Kings Cross HEX offers little time saving over the Piccadilly, costs a lot more, and involves a fairly complicated change at Paddington.

After a long haul flight I can honestly think of nothing worse than sitting on the 73 stock for an hour.

Crossrail will finish off HEX though. I’d pay a small premium to use HEX but the big issue is that the HEX fare stands alone, rather than a bolt-on to the usual zonal fares.

 

[43066]

I can honestly think of nothing worse than sitting on the 73 stock for an hour.

And you call yourself a railway enthusiast!?

 

[Starmill]

Hardly a surprise - getting a seat direct to Central London or Canary Wharf will be attractive even to business travellers.

Will be interesting to see what the responses are - my understanding is that the HEX paths couldn't be easily reallocated to GWR services as they follow trains that Stop at Slough or Maidenhead, and get caught up at Reading by the following fast.

While that was definitely the case on the Down Main historically, the Up Main was a different story. There certainly has always been the opportunity to remove pathing time or improve performance there.

As later posts have clarified however, the situation is going to be somewhat different soon. Personally I expect an all-day fast service from Twyford and Maidenhead to London Paddington to be a roaring success.

 

[JN114]

Revenues down by a third, HEx management quoted in the article that they’re confident it will recover - doesn’t exactly sound like they’re at all worried.

I’ve said elsewhere on the forum before - Crossrail isn’t some surprise market disruptor nobody was expecting. HEx have been planning for Crossrail’s arrival and consequent poaching of custom for over a decade. So long as Revenue matches or beats the predictions they’ve been making for the past decade, then why would it go anywhere?

 

[43066]

Revenues down by a third, HEx management quoted in the article that they’re confident it will recover - doesn’t exactly sound like they’re at all worried.

Well, they’re hardly going to say anything else publicly!

 

[rf_ioliver]

Nobody has to pay for any of these methods; other forms of transport are available!

History has shown that people are often willing to pay a premium for a service which is quicker or more convenient than the alternatives - and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem is that, just as many of us expected, EL is proving a good substitute for HEX, to the point where many no longer consider the premium worth it.

You're right to a point, nobody *has* to pay, but if you *have* to get somewhere and there's a choice between what are effectively two very similar services - they're both trains, they both go to the same place, but one of them goes to lots of useful places versus a premium one that just goes to Paddington...

HEX always seemed way overpriced for what it was on the few occasions I've had to use it - someone else paid in those circumstances, but even then having to change at Paddington was a pain.

Arlanda is the other one that annoys me ... that is expensive. I've got one friend who switched to flying to Bromma just to avoid it (fares were similar). Copenhagen and Helsinki are very nice as they're both on commuter lines and priced accordingly.