GWR train - Not Valid Railcard by 3 minutes.

[Envoy]

Well, if that’s the way GWR want it, then roll on the arrival of GUT who I understand will offer a faster services that by-pass Swansea (using the SDL line with a P&R near the M4 north of the city) and then non stop to Cardiff. The Welsh Government are all in favour of competition being introduced on the south Wales to London route. It appears to have been highly successful on the East Coast Main Line where First run their Lumo services.

 

[Watershed]

Well, if that’s the way GWR want it, then roll on the arrival of GUT who I understand will offer a faster services that by-pass Swansea (using the SDL line with a P&R near the M4 north of the city) and then non stop to Cardiff.

Two Together Railcards won't be valid before 09:30 on GUT either. I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. You pays your money and you takes your choice - 09:27 if you're happy to pay a bit more, or 10:06 if you want to leave later than you can today and still arrive at the same time.

The Welsh Government are all in favour of competition being introduced on the south Wales to London route. It appears to have been highly successful on the East Coast Main Line where First run their Lumo services.

I'm sure they are, but they're not the ones footing the bill! I imagine their tune would change pretty rapidly if they were on the hook for subsidising GWR.

It's no surprise that Lumo et al have been successful given the significant indirect subsidies they receive - the track access charges come nowhere close to covering their share of NR's overall running costs.

 

[miklcct]

No matter when the cut off time is, there are always some trains where the departure time is just minutes before that.

The classic solution here is split ticketing. Just buy full price tickets to the first calling point after 09:30 and use the discount from there.

 

[mangyiscute]

Also, I personally think that OP is wildly exaggerating the number of people with two together railcards who will want to use the 09:27 service from Carmarthen specifically. How about being happy that you are getting new direct services through to London, while a lot of stations have seen their services cut recently?

 

[kieron]

Well, if that’s the way GWR want it, then roll on the arrival of GUT who I understand will offer a faster services that by-pass Swansea (using the SDL line with a P&R near the M4 north of the city) and then non stop to Cardiff.

GUT seem to have gone through a few different proposals, but the one the regulator has accepted (details here) involves everything stopping at Gowerton and Llanelli, and so staying on the main line. They say:

Passengers travelling between London, Bristol Parkway, Severn Tunnel Junction, Newport, Cardiff, Gowerton, Llanelli and Carmarthen will benefit from an extra five daily return services and greater choice of operator.

I'm sure they are, but they're not the ones footing the bill! I imagine their tune would change pretty rapidly if they were on the hook for subsidising GWR.

The Welsh Government are responsible for TfW Rail, so could lose revenue from both raiders. They could make some back if the extra trains attract extra passengers who generate extra economic activity which they can tax, so they may not be too worried.

 

[Watershed]

The Welsh Government are responsible for TfW Rail, so could lose revenue from both raiders. They could make some back if the extra trains attract extra passengers who generate extra economic activity which they can tax, so they may not be too worried.

GUT's primary market will be south Wales to London. Whilst they might also offer some ORCATS-raiding Advances or GUT-only walk-up tickets within south Wales (as Hull Trains and Grand Central do at the peripheries of their routes too), that will be small fry in comparison with the revenue that GWR stands to lose.

 

[Envoy]

Also, I personally think that OP is wildly exaggerating the number of people with two together railcards who will want to use the 09:27 service from Carmarthen specifically. How about being happy that you are getting new direct services through to London, while a lot of stations have seen their services cut recently?

It’s not just people with 2 Together Railcards who are affected by the 9.30 restriction. Veterans, 16>25, 26 >30 & HM Forces Railcards also fall into the restriction. The next train from Carmarthen is just after 10am (TfW Milford Haven to Manchester) so for those people with the aforementioned Railcards is much cheaper. However, I dare say that those people with cars who say wish to go from the Carmarthen area to Cardiff for a day out, will just use the car (if they have one) all the way for at least until Port Talbot Parkway - where they could catch the same train that they could have caught at Carmarthen had their Railcards been valid. Don’t think Lee Waters (Deputy Minister for Climate Change at the Welsh Government) would be very happy about this. GWR also no doubt will have some empty seats where they could have been making some money in west Wales.

PS. I understand that GUT will call at Gowerton and go straight through Landore to avoid Swansea station until such time as the new parkway station by the M4 is up and running.

 

[Watershed]

It’s not just people with 2 Together Railcards who are affected by the 9.30 restriction. Veterans, 16>25, 26 >30 & HM Forces Railcards also fall into the restriction

There is no "not valid before 09:30" restriction on those other Railcards. They have a minimum fare of £12 before 10am, but that is clearly far beyond 09:30 - and in any event it doesn't apply to Advance tickets (which, as mentioned, I would expect GWR to introduce).

GWR also no doubt will have some empty seats where they could have been making some money in west Wales.

Quite likely, yes. But the Treasury and DfT are still stuck in the pre-pandemic mindset that charging higher fares during "peak" periods will maximise revenue, so that can hardly come as a surprise. It happens all over the country and is in no way particular to this service or route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Envoy. Just to clarify, where were you hoping to travel to on this 0927 GWR service from Carmarthen?

Cardiff? Reading? London Paddington? Elsewhere?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GWR are probably only adding these Carmarthen services because they know that Grand Union Trains are going to start running fast trains to Carmarthen in about 2 years.

2 years is wildly optimistic for Grand Union Trains to start running.

They haven’t even ordered their trains yet, to get them built, tested and accepted into traffic in 2 years is a very tall order.

 

[mangyiscute]

It’s not just people with 2 Together Railcards who are affected by the 9.30 restriction. Veterans, 16>25, 26 >30 & HM Forces Railcards also fall into the restriction. The next train from Carmarthen is just after 10am (TfW Milford Haven to Manchester) so for those people with the aforementioned Railcards is much cheaper. However, I dare say that those people with cars who say wish to go from the Carmarthen area to Cardiff for a day out, will just use the car (if they have one) all the way for at least until Port Talbot Parkway - where they could catch the same train that they could have caught at Carmarthen had their Railcards been valid. Don’t think Lee Waters (Deputy Minister for Climate Change at the Welsh Government) would be very happy about this. GWR also no doubt will have some empty seats where they could have been making some money in west Wales.

PS. I understand that GUT will call at Gowerton and go straight through Landore to avoid Swansea station until such time as the new parkway station by the M4 is up and running.

So are you suggesting that if we reduce fares (in this indirect way), more people will take trains and not drive? What a genius plan! /s

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It’s not just people with 2 Together Railcards who are affected by the 9.30 restriction. Veterans, 16>25, 26 >30 & HM Forces Railcards also fall into the restriction. The next train from Carmarthen is just after 10am (TfW Milford Haven to Manchester) so for those people with the aforementioned Railcards is much cheaper. However, I dare say that those people with cars who say wish to go from the Carmarthen area to Cardiff for a day out, will just use the car (if they have one) all the way for at least until Port Talbot Parkway - where they could catch the same train that they could have caught at Carmarthen had their Railcards been valid. Don’t think Lee Waters (Deputy Minister for Climate Change at the Welsh Government) would be very happy about this. GWR also no doubt will have some empty seats where they could have been making some money in west Wales.

PS. I understand that GUT will call at Gowerton and go straight through Landore to avoid Swansea station until such time as the new parkway station by the M4 is up and running.

I think you’re over estimating widely the number of people who will travel with a two together railcard, none of the others have time restrictions in the same way.

 

[Tevion539]

The only Railcard that will be disallowed will be the Two Together Railcard. All other Railcards would either have no time restrictions from Carmarthen, or are only valid from 10am for a short journey with a fare of less than £12.

The 09:27 is an additional service that has never existed before, so it's not like as if a longstanding train has been retimed earlier.

You're free to contact GWR to ask them to add an easement but I wouldn't expect much success.

It's also worth noting that booking an advance ticket over rules the £12 min fare befor 10am.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's also worth noting that booking an advance ticket over rules the £12 min fare befor 10am.

Or even mininum fares don't apply to Advance

 

[geoffk]

I think they should - but it's not something that always happens. There used to be a 09.29 from my local station and it took years for it to be retimed to 09.31

And during the leaf fall timetable it probably went back to 0929! Northern used to do this.

 

[ExToC]

I agree that it should be the arrival time at destination that affects all people on the train, not departure time that penalises those furthest out and affects some people on the train that should be the determinator - sure it is more "complicated" but hardly rocket science.

 

[David Goddard]

Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill here. Just buy a single from Carmarthen to Pembrey &Burry Port. Its £19 for two people.

We used to have a worse one at Reading where since the IET timetable launched there was a West of England train (first stop Taunton) at 0929. This is now thankfully 0930

 

[mangyiscute]

Can't wait for the next timetable to come out and there are no trains calling anywhere at 09:25 to 09:29!

 

[The exile]

I agree that it should be the arrival time at destination that affects all people on the train, not departure time that penalises those furthest out and affects some people on the train that should be the determinator - sure it is more "complicated" but hardly rocket science.

Though this would be an issue on precisely a route like this (though not this train) where the final destination is not the (only) potential bottleneck. As an example - a mid morning (ie off peak) arrival at Paddington May well have been the peak commuter train into Cardiff…. There will always be issues around time cut/offs, but as I remember being told years ago, borderline cases are not in themselves a justification for abolishing borders!

 

[wilbers]

Though this would be an issue on precisely a route like this (though not this train) where the final destination is not the (only) potential bottleneck. As an example - a mid morning (ie off peak) arrival at Paddington May well have been the peak commuter train into Cardiff…. There will always be issues around time cut/offs, but as I remember being told years ago, borderline cases are not in themselves a justification for abolishing borders!

Well, it does depend on train frequencies - next one 15 minutes later not an issue, 2 hours later and strong consideration should be given to having an easement.

 

[Envoy]

Guess what - the GWR train leaves Camarthen at 9.27 on weekdays but 9.30am on Saturdays - a day when the Railcards are valid at anytime. Funny that! Is the 9.27 departure on weekdays likely to be so popular that they have to make it depart at 9.27 so as to not encourage use by Railcard passengers & thus entice them to use the next TfW service?

 

[Watershed]

Guess what - the GWR train leaves Camarthen at 9.27 on weekdays but 9.30am on Saturdays - a day when the Railcards are valid at anytime. Funny that! Is the 9.27 departure on weekdays likely to be so popular that they have to make it depart at 9.27 so as to not encourage use by Railcard passengers & thus entice them to use the next TfW service?

Or maybe - just maybe - there isn't some huge conspiracy going on here, and instead there's actually a rather good timetabling reason why the schedules are different, such as a freight train that only runs on weekdays...

Trains are never scheduled based on time restrictions, it's the other way around. But here it's a simple case of the Two Together Railcard never being valid before 09:30, without exceptions for any edge cases. Those are the terms on offer - don't like it, don't buy the Railcard!

 

[Envoy]

Or maybe - just maybe - there isn't some huge conspiracy going on here, and instead there's actually a rather good timetabling reason why the schedules are different, such as a freight train that only runs on weekdays...

Trains are never scheduled based on time restrictions, it's the other way around. But here it's a simple case of the Two Together Railcard never being valid before 09:30, without exceptions for any edge cases. Those are the terms on offer - don't like it, don't buy the Railcard!

No freight train path exists anywhere near the timings for the 9.27 weekdays GWR from Carmarthen. Perhaps the GWR high command really don’t want passengers on these services west of Swansea so they can have an excuse to remove them?

 

[Clip]

No freight train path exists anywhere near the timings for the 9.27 weekdays GWR from Carmarthen. Perhaps the GWR high command really don’t want passengers on these services west of Swansea so they can have an excuse to remove them?

Maybe not by Carmarthen however when you look further on in its journey theres some activity around Acton with some freight paths there which counteracts your claim

Realtime Trains | Departures from Acton West around 1303 on 30/06/2023

Train information at Acton West around 1303 on 30/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Envoy]

Maybe not by Carmarthen however when you look further on in its journey theres some activity around Acton with some freight paths there which counteracts your claim

Realtime Trains | Departures from Acton West around 1303 on 30/06/2023

Train information at Acton West around 1303 on 30/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

THe 9.27 from Carmarthen on weekdays arrives Swansea at 10.10 and departs at 10.23. The 9.32 on Saturdays arrives Swansea at 10.15 and departs at 10.23. So exactly the same time out of Swansea so nothing to do with freight paths between Swansea & London.

 

[Watershed]

No freight train path exists anywhere near the timings for the 9.27 weekdays GWR from Carmarthen. Perhaps the GWR high command really don’t want passengers on these services west of Swansea so they can have an excuse to remove them?

Are you sure about that - what about later in the journey of the 09:27? Or somewhere in the journey of another train that it interacts with at the many junctions and stations it passes through?

I don't have the graph up in front of me, but you can be sure that there is a reason for the difference, and that it's nothing to do with your outlandish suggestions of "GWR high command" wanting to put passengers off. In fact, I'd put good money on you being the only Two Together Railcard holder in the country who's unhappy with timing of this service, let alone seen fit to create a thread on it...

The simple reality is that GWR are adding these services because they've been told to do so by the DfT. And they'll remove them again when the DfT tells them to, which in turn will happen as soon as Yeowart abandons his plans (for the millionth time)...

 

[Benjwri]

They won’t be able to retime the service because of the interaction with 2B57 (Cardiff to Swansea) at Swansea Loop East. The two trains are only timed 5 minutes apart, with the TfW train arriving later, so the GWR is as late as possible, and cross paths going into the platforms at Swansea.

The platforms cannot be swapped before that is asked as the GWR service needs to pick up another 5 car set, and moving that causes a knock on effect which would require an entire rewrite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==

2B57 runs 5 minutes later with a different stopping pattern on Saturdays as 1B57, hence why 1L16 can run 5 minutes later without issue.

 

[Bluejays]

They won’t be able to retime the service because of the interaction with 2B57 (Cardiff to Swansea) at Swansea Loop East. The two trains are only timed 5 minutes apart, with the TfW train arriving later, so the GWR is as late as possible, and cross paths going into the platforms at Swansea.

The platforms cannot be swapped before that is asked as the GWR service needs to pick up another 5 car set, and moving that causes a knock on effect which would require an entire rewrite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==

2B57 runs 5 minutes later with a different stopping pattern on Saturdays as 1B57, hence why 1L16 can run 5 minutes later without issue.

Rubbish ! It's nothing to do with this very sensible explanation that explains the situation completely.

It's a conspiracy to keep the hordes of 2together Railcard holders away. Would be full and standing without this !

 

[mangyiscute]

Nah actually I think GWR were like "oh there's that guy Envoy on the rail forums who wants to use their two together railcard on the train leaving Carmarthen at around half 9. How about we time it just before half 9 just to annoy them specifically, we could do whatever but I really want to annoy this one customer"

 

[Haywain]

Nah actually I think GWR were like "oh there's that guy Envoy on the rail forums who wants to use their two together railcard on the train leaving Carmarthen at around half 9. How about we time it just before half 9 just to annoy them specifically, we could do whatever but I really want to annoy this one customer"

That will be when they get an opportunity to retime to 09:30, but choose to make it 09:29!