Thats worryingly low because the train service the OP travelled on was the first one down which based on the 2017 experience was the busiest down by a very wide margin.
The busiest train up was the C16:22 Swanage to Wareham.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Swanage Railway announce 2023 Wareham service
- Thread starter JGurney
- Start date
- Status
Thats worryingly low because the train service the OP travelled on was the first one down which based on the 2017 experience was the busiest down by a very wide margin.
The busiest train up was the C16:22 Swanage to Wareham.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Falcon1200
Established Member
OTOH without the Wareham link I would not have visited the Swanage Railway at all, and as well as the £25 train fare I spent another £35 on food, drink, books and souvenirs, all at the Railway.
I'm a bit out of touch with the Swanage now but the issue on the last trial was that the Wareham trains extracted passengers from the Swanage to Norden section, from memory it was around 6,000
norbitonflyer
Established Member
It's about as close to the end of April as it's possible to get, but still neither the NR journey planner nor the SWR one, nor Rail UK's own, lets you book through tickets from any SWR station I've tried (including Wareham) to either Swanage or Corfe Castle
Through fares are however showing on www.brfares.com so will hopefully percolate through to booking sites very soon. They appear to be the off peak day return fare to Wareham plus £10 for Corfe or £25 for Swanage. A major flaw seems to be there are no railcard fares, surely a through fare including the railcard-discounted fare to Wareham plus the above supplements should be available, otherwise anyone with a railcard (probably a substantial majority of potential passengers) will have to rebook at Wareham thus destroying any value of having a through fare?
No period returns either. Missed opportunity if so, given its a perfect short break destination.
A day return is £99 from London!
The lack of Railcard fares is deliberate, though clearly SWR could have introduced a non-standard discount (as exists on some other tickets that include validity on non-National Rail operators) to ensure just the NR bit of the journey is discounted.
Mainline421
Member
SWR TVMs or any ticket office will though, and there's no advantage to pre-purchasing since you would need to collect anyway.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Actually more expensive than railtours on that route, can't see it proving popular sadly. At least Priv works.
Last edited:
If you want to do it, I'd do it during trial 2.
Unless someone comes up with a huge subsidy I don't see it running in future years.
There are two schools of thought on the Wareham service:
The realists / pessimists think it would require a large subsidy, the optimists / fantasists think it can be run without subsidy.
Personally I think when account is taken of the fare abstracted from the core heritage operation I think it would require quite a considerable subsidy especially if all the costs are taken into account especially the need to overhaul the DMUs in due course.
IMHO one of the issues with many heritage railways is that when making decisions whether to run or not they focus on covering Direct operating costs only and do not take account of the need in the long run for repairs / renewals / overhauls. As an example on the Swanage Railway the dining set is laid up nearing C£200K for an overhaul especially I am advised of the bar car. None of the revenue from the previous operating seasons (since the last overhaul) was put in one side to fund this. Doubtless there was a more immediate need for the moneys as they were "earned" however this almost Micawberish attitude eventually leads to problems. Many Heritage railways have launched appeals over the past few years to plug gaps in the finances however I do wonder how much longer hr enthusiasts will be willing and able to out their hands in their pockets.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Not so sure about that; As I mentioned earlier I would not have gone to Swanage at had it not been for the Wareham connection, so a fare (plus other spending) was gained, not abstracted! But I do agree the cost of the operation must be considerable, and I hope that attracting others like me to the railway will be sufficient to justify its continuation.
Perhaps it would be helpful if I described what I consider to be fare abstraction and what is not.
(1) Fare is not abstracted from passengers who travel Wareham <> Swanage (or other stations along the line) solely because they are able to join at Wareham (by whatever means) or because they can travel to Wareham. These could be termed new passengers.
(2) Fare is abstracted from passengers who travel Wareham <> Swanage (or other stations along the line) if they would have otherwise have travelled to / from any of the other stations along the line. These could be termed existing passengers.
So for example
(1) Mr A Gricer decides to travel from Wareham to Swanage and return because he is able to use mainline rail to get to Wareham. If he had not been able to get to Wareham he would not otherwise have travelled on the branch. This is all revenue gained. The gain is £25.
(2) Mr B Ulleid is a frequent visitor to Swanage and usually travels from Norden to Swanage and return. Because of the Wareham service on his next regular visit he decides to travel from Wareham to Swanage and return instead of his usual Norden to Swanage. Swanage Railway gains the difference in revenue between the Wareham <> Swanage return and the Norden <> Swanage return because he would have paid that fare anyway. Thus the revenue gain is £7 (£25 Wareham <> Swanage less £18 Norden <> Swanage).
Thus the actual revenue earned by the Wareham will be a mix of both these types of passengers. Obviously not only will the absolute passenger numbers be crucial but so will be the mix. A further consideration will also be the numbers of Premier Life Members (effectively travelling for free) and Priv Card holders whose fare contribution is £6.25 return and arguably may have visited Swanage Railway anyway and thus whose additional contribution is £1.75.
Your forgetting:
3) Mr E conomy who turns up at Norden or Corfe castle and decides that as it's cheaper than getting a steam train to Swanage he will do a return trip to Wareham on the Heritage Diesel Unit. It's after all not that different to the stock he will experience to Swanage and they can watch the Steam Engines passing through Corfe Castle anyway. He saves £8 per person and the Swanage Revenue decreases. If he wants to see Swanage station they can drive there and park in the Co-op car park purchasing a value meal for £3.50 to save buying any expensive railway catering. Whilst at Swanage he can thumb through the books in the bookshop before purchasing them on Amazon at a discount. A surprising percentage of Rail Enthusiasts are in this category.
Thanks Paul for that addition. I understand that Swanage Railways catering income at Swanage declined considerably after Greggs opened a branch at Swanage. During the diesel gala it was quite depressing to note how many enthusiasts would travel up and down the line (especially on the evening Beerex services) having bought large quantities of beer etc from the Co-Op or Budgens or even Threshers (before they closed down) rather than the beer etc sold on the platform, on the train or at the beer festival itself.
I dont doubt there are many enthusiast who quite willingly spend good sums of money supporting heritage railways but I have to note the number who spend very little indeed preferring to shop in the co-op or bring their own refreshments.
AIUI secondary spend on the Swanage Railway has never been particularly high but it seems to have declined as both enthusiasts and general visitors choose to spend their money differently.
Falcon1200
Established Member
But that is still a revenue gain, not an abstraction, although of course £7 does not cover the cost of running to Wareham.
That is me!
That is also me! However I chose to pay the full fare of £25, rather than use my Priv card, to support the Railway, and the Wareham service.
That is not however me; I bought a book, and the Railway's Guide, at Swanage, and food and drink, and another souvenir plus more food and drink at Corfe Castle. Overall the Railway earned £60 thanks to the Wareham service, which they would not have had without it.
D Williams
Member
I went to Swanage on a little jolly on Saturday. For a bank holiday weekend the place didn't seem too busy. Buffets at railways are, in my experience ( as a manager) , always a problem and unless most staff are volunteers they don't make a lot of money, in fact they can be a drain on resources. For a long time the SR had the buffet coach at Swanage , this is now closed ( and dilapidated) with the buffet moved to the booking hall with a much-reduced offering but probably brings in a bit of cash. When the town just down the street is full of food and drink outlets you are not going to win this game. I can't find anything on their website about dining trins so have these been suspended?
The place is fairly tidy although there is the inevitable line of rotted rolling stock and piles of scrap strewn along the line. But, where else can it go?
The gents toilets have a very unpleasant aroma that is quite unnecessary in this age and would also benefit from a clean during the day. I also noticed someone struggling to find a disabled toilet, again this is 2023 not 1923.
Corfe Castle station is excellent , apart from the toilets, a walk back to Norden then a wander around the mining museum. So, a nice little day out.
The coaches were clean and maintained although the one we rode in had a rattling good wheel flat.
One DMU service i noticed was well-filled but the last to Wareham left plenty of room. It looked like a service from Newquay on a winter weekday. This will not work in the long term unless it receives a subsidy, the costs of running onto the national network are just too high.
The place is fairly tidy although there is the inevitable line of rotted rolling stock and piles of scrap strewn along the line. But, where else can it go?
The gents toilets have a very unpleasant aroma that is quite unnecessary in this age and would also benefit from a clean during the day. I also noticed someone struggling to find a disabled toilet, again this is 2023 not 1923.
Corfe Castle station is excellent , apart from the toilets, a walk back to Norden then a wander around the mining museum. So, a nice little day out.
The coaches were clean and maintained although the one we rode in had a rattling good wheel flat.
One DMU service i noticed was well-filled but the last to Wareham left plenty of room. It looked like a service from Newquay on a winter weekday. This will not work in the long term unless it receives a subsidy, the costs of running onto the national network are just too high.
To respond to some of these points:
1) The full time buffet staff (paid) were made redundant during the pandemic. The buffet coach has been moved to Corfe Castle to provide a facility where the competition is less (but still healthy). The booking hall buffet is a compromise in providing a facility for variable demand given the high level of competition locally. The coach in the squint at Swanage is the dining set kitchen car which is well worn and in need of an exterior repaint but the inside is much much better.
2) Dining trains non operational as dining set needs C£200k worth of refurbishment.
3) The disabled toilet (provided by the council) is 200m away in Mermond Place car park. SRC appear to be discouraging use of the toilets by non railway customers as they SRC have to pay for the cleaning. (Sign on gate by former taxi office directs non railway customers to Mermond Place Car Park toilets).
4) The toilets are life expired and SRC doesnt have the money to refurbish them. The toilets are cleaned during the day by a local contractor (the level of cleaning is determined by the service level operated) but it seems almost impossible to eradicate the smell. I suspect that the drains and many of the surfaces have become permeable over time and thus effluent has penetrated the surface and is retained hence the lingering smell.
5) The toilets at Corfe Castle are listed (because they are part of a listed building). Discussions are ongoing as to what refurbishment Dorset Council will permit. It appears that DC will not approve replacement of the gents "pissoir" with a more appropriate facility as it is historically significant
6) The first down and last up Wareham trains are the busiest by a very significant margin. The trial should give an indication of the level of subsidy required and then Dorset Council and other stakeholders can decide if they wish and are able to fund the deficit. My fear is that SRC will not include all costs including depreciation, renewals and replacements in the calculation (because it may beg the question why was such a financially hopeless project commenced) so if a subsidy is forthcoming SRC may still find themselves in the mire in subsequent years.
It will have to be subsidised, most network services are, there is no reason why different standards should be expected of services to/from heritage lines. This is for an all year round service, which I still don't believe SR has any intention of providing. As I've said elsewhere, if heritage lines continue with their insular 'siege' mentality, then subsidised TOC services should be forced on them. Swanage-Poole/Bournemouth, WSR to Taunton/Bristol, any line with an under used main line connection. Those that already have cross-platform connections, like Alton or East Grinstead are fulfilling their potential, even those with a short walk, like Kidderminster. The others need to look outwards, not inwards. If they don't take providing a year round public service seriously, then the jibe that they are just 'playing trains' remains a valid one. Okehampton is the model to follow. Public service first, heritage service second. I hope the DR can resume their trains to Meldon eventually, although the bureaucratic wheels move as slowly as they always have.
Dai Corner
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 6,998
I expect most heritage lines would employ the staff, obtain the trains and maintain the infrastructure to run a TOC-style service if they were granted a TOC-style subsidy.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Why subsidise when you can pull it?
Heritage railways will simply be unable to staff their boxes and stations for a 7-day-a week 0600-2200 service. People are happy to volunteer when things are happening, but a 158 running up and down once an hour? You'll need to pay people to come in for that.
And that's before you get into the insurance, liability, commercial issues, and mixed operation of heritage stock on legacy crash/fire/safety rules and mainline stock on modern standards.
The subsidy level for a year round service on Swanage Railway would be huge with very low carryings in the winter months. Public transport in Purbeck could be enhanced at a fraction of that cost by supporting increased frequencies (and lower fare levels) on the Morebus 40 and 50 Purbeck Breezer services between Swanage and Poole / Bournemouth.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Precisely the subsidy required would be huge.
JGurney
Member
It is unfair that SRC are bearing all the costs of the Swanage station toilets. As the station is also de facto the town bus station, and it stands at one end of the main shopping street, railway passengers (esp. immediate ones, rather than those who made a train journey at some different time that day) are probably a minority among the users. It would be only reasonable for the local authorities to contribute.
Soon after trains ceased, Hants and Dorset took over the station yard for bus parking and opened an enquiry office in the station building. The station front replaced the old Triangle bus office on the seafront as the terminus and starting point point for the bus routes into the town. I suspect a number of older residents and long-term repeat visitors consequently still think of the station as being primarily the bus station, with a heritage railway also using it in summer. It would not occur to many that they should walk down Station Road and along Mermold Pl. to get to the council toilets when there are some right there in the 'bus station'.
May be unfair / seem to be unfair but AIUI this issue was fully discussed and agreed between Swanage Town Council and Swanage Railway Company in 2014 when STC and SRC agreed the new lease on Swanage Station. As I also understand it Swanage Town Council declines to support the cost of operating and maintaining the toilets as they had opened the nearby (200 meters) fully accessible toilets in Mermond Place. I think, but am not sure, Morebus are required to make a proportionate contribution of the cost of maintaining the toilets.
Only available (it seems) from a SWR booking office (TVM brought up a message warning to check when services were running then claimed no journeys found), but here is something I'd never though I'd see/be able to buy, a regular orange ticket with the destination "Swanage"!
Attachments
In the context of the subsidy required for Wareham, I'd have though the Swanage Station toilets costs were pretty insignificant. Most heritage railways have to provide their own facilities and I can confirm that at many lines the toilets are cleaned by volunteers even though I guess few would own up to being a volunteer toilet cleaner.
Yes insignificant but it is a cost that has to be born (and has been for quite a few years) because SRC cant find volunteers prepared to clean toilets. Some of the booking office duties are covered by paid employees as indeed are some travelling ticket inspector shifts and in the station buffet at Swanage and Corfe Castle Stations.
railfan99
Established Member
Wow. Huge thanks for posting that. Given the cheapest fare via the National Rail site's display seems GBP12.40 return from Weymouth to Wareham, the c.GBP25 return on the preserved railway is quite reasonable.
Well done for purchasing a through ticket and travelling by rail rather than driving to say Swanage.
Big Jumby 74
Established Member
The latter of these I was talking about with someone who is involved at the BB recently, and (it was said) that even with the East Grinstead connection to the National network, the income from BB passengers using same was still well short of what was originally anticipated, even before covid, which if true, goes to show just how difficult it is to finance many aspects of preserved lines.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Part of the problem with the East Grinstead connection is that East Grinstead isn't a particularly obvious tourist destination on it's own so the only reason you'd go there is to get the steam railway, whereas plenty of people go to the coast as tourists and then see they can driver easily to Sheffield park. The facilities at East Grinstead for both GTR and BRPS stations aren't exactly wonderful, the converted Carriage for the BRPS in particular is cute but pretty cramped (or was last time I went, pre-COVID). Another issue is that with round trips starting from Sheffield Park, you have less options of trains from East Grinstead and it's not always easy to get time to explore both Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes depending on which timetable is operating.
islandmonkey
Member
Yep, main aim was to visit Sheffield Park, so I drove there from Southampton and then got the steam train to East Grinstead and back. Thought the main line connection was pretty cool, but would be unlikely to use it if I wanted to go on the Bluebell railway again.
- Status