Longer Distance Service You Didn't Expect Without Changing

[Magdalia]

I remember during the 70s, a summer service from York to Tenby.

10b = Tenby

In those days, before renumbering, platform 10 at York was a bay.

But the York-Tenby did call at Birmingham New Street, where all the platforms had a and b ends.

I'd be surprised if the York-Tenby had never called at platform 10 at Birmingham New Street, as platforms 10 and 11 were usual for trains to the south west.

 

[30907]

Via which route?

Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, Gloucester, Cardiff, avoiding Swansea and Carmarthen (1983 route, it may have varied a bit).

 

[greyman42]

In those days, before renumbering, platform 10 at York was a bay.

Yes it was platform 15.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes it was platform 15.

At York the old platform 15 is now platform 10.

But what is the old platform 10 now? It was one of the bays in the big middle island.

 

[zwk500]

At York the old platform 15 is now platform 10.

But what is the old platform 10 now? It was one of the bays in the big middle island.

The north-facing bay is 8, the south facing bays are 6 and 7.

 

[Magdalia]

The north-facing bay is 8, the south facing bays are 6 and 7.

Yes, but which one used to be platform 10?

And the old numbering had two northbound bays. Together the two northbound and two southbound bays were platforms 10-13 but I can't remember which were which.

 

[alistairlees]

At York the old platform 15 is now platform 10.

But what is the old platform 10 now? It was one of the bays in the big middle island.

Old / new at York
1 / -
2 / -
3 / 1
4 / -
5 / -
6 / -
7 / 2
8 / 3 and 4
9 / 5
10 / 6
11 / 7
12 / 8
13 / -
14 / 9
15 / 10
16 / 11

Actually I am not sure if I have new 8 correct in being old 12. Was it 13?

 

[jfollows]

Yes, but which one used to be platform 10?

And the old numbering had two northbound bays. Together the two northbound and two southbound bays were platforms 10-13 but I can't remember which were which.

This one?
6 used to be 10.
British Rail Track Diagrams 2 - Eastern & Anglia Regions, Quail Map Company March 1988
Railway Track Diagrams - Eastern - Fourth Edition - TRACKmaps 2016

 

[D1537]

Curious about this (if you know or can work it out from the WTT): was the Leeds-bound journey of this unusual working formed off the 0805 Portsmouth-Liverpool (1M03)? If we assume an hour's turnaround at Liverpool the timings would be about right.

Yes, the stock was. The locomotive wasn't, as 1M03's locomotive was still at the buffers. The loco for 1G61 was, if I remember, off a parcels service from the previous night. In the summer it occasionally got non-ETH locos.

1F09's stock formed a train to the south coast (1640 to Poole, I think).

 

[nw1]

Yes, the stock was. The locomotive wasn't, as 1M03's locomotive was still at the buffers. The loco for 1G61 was, if I remember, off a parcels service from the previous night. In the summer it occasionally got non-ETH locos.

1F09 didn't make 1G61 at Liverpool. If you wanted to do both trains you had to bail out at Crewe (or possibly Runcorn, I forget).

Ah ok, thanks. I'd hazard a guess that 1F09 formed the southbound Liverpool-Portsmouth?

How about the interworking at the Leeds end? Did the Leeds arrival form the Liverpool the following day or did it do something else?

(Sorry for all the questions, but 1M03 is close to my heart, as it was my "own local IC service" for a good part of the 80s, so it's interesting to find out the workings).

 

[D1537]

Ah ok, thanks. I'd hazard a guess that 1F09 formed the southbound Liverpool-Portsmouth?

How about the interworking at the Leeds end? Did the Leeds arrival form the Liverpool the following day or did it do something else?

(Sorry for all the questions, but 1M03 is close to my heart, as it was my "own local IC service" for a good part of the 80s, so it's interesting to find out the workings).

Yeah, I'm just trying to work it out (as you'll have seen from the change I made to my post).

I'm sure that 1F09 didn't make 1G61 at Liverpool. Just flicking through my moves to see if I can work out what it did.

The stock that ended up at Leeds did definitely form 1M55 the next day though.

 

[nw1]

Yeah, I'm just trying to work it out (as you'll have seen from the change I made to my post).

I'm sure that 1F09 didn't make 1G61 at Liverpool. Just flicking through my moves to see if I can work out what it did.

The stock that ended up at Leeds did definitely form 1M55 the next day though.

Ah ok, thanks. Guessing it was LM or WR stock; I know it was non-aircon Mk-II but don't remember its region. Conceivable it was a two-day cycle in that case: Portsmouth-Liverpool-Leeds | Leeds-Liverpool-Portsmouth. I know from documents on brcoachingstock that the stock for the earlier versions of 1M03 (e.g the Manchester version from 1983) were on a two-day cycle.

I'm surprised that 1F09 didn't make 1G61, as ISTR Birmingham-Liverpool was a little over an hour and a half. Birmingham-Stafford was typically just over 30 mins, and Liverpool-Stafford just over an hour (earlier in the 80s, a common pattern was xx20 Liverpool arriving around xx25 at Stafford).

 

[D1537]

Ah ok, thanks. Guessing it was LM or WR stock; I know it was non-aircon Mk-II but don't remember its region. Conceivable it was a two-day cycle in that case: Portsmouth-Liverpool-Leeds | Leeds-Liverpool-Portsmouth. I know from documents on brcoachingstock that the stock for the earlier versions of 1M03 (e.g the Manchester version from 1983) were on a two-day cycle.

I'm surprised that 1F09 didn't make 1G61, as ISTR Birmingham-Liverpool was a little over an hour and a half. Birmingham-Stafford was typically just over 30 mins, and Liverpool-Stafford just over an hour (earlier in the 80s, a common pattern was xx20 Liverpool arriving around xx25 at Stafford).

Yes, annoyingly I can't find a day in which I did both 1F09 and 1G61. The only day I can find that I went to Liverpool with 1F09 I came back on 1O46 1510 Liverpool-Portsmouth, so I'm guessing that was the stock diagram, but that would suggest that the stock was trapped in a POR-LIV-LEEDS-LIV-POR circle...

4/4/87
47520 (GD) COV-BAN 1O03
47401 (GD) BAN-BHM 1M03
47572 (SF) BHM-LIV 1F09
47438 (TI) LIV-BHM 1O46
47545 (CD) BHM-STF 1M83
47572 (SF) STF-OXF 1O12
47444 (CD) OXF-COV 1M63

 

[nw1]

Yes, annoyingly I can't find a day in which I did both 1F09 and 1G61. The only day I can find that I went to Liverpool with 1F09 I came back on 1O46 1510 Liverpool-Portsmouth, so I'm guessing that was the stock diagram, but that would suggest that the stock was trapped in a POR-LIV-LEEDS-LIV-POR circle...

As I said above this seemed to be commonplace in the 80s, perhaps with a changeover at the weekend.

4/4/87
47520 (GD) COV-BAN 1O03
47401 (GD) BAN-BHM 1M03

An aside but the GD early 47/4s were incredibly rare south of Birmingham - not sure I ever saw one, and certainly none of the named examples. On that day it presumably must have traversed my local Portsmouth Direct line.

 

[D1537]

As I said above this seemed to be commonplace in the 80s, perhaps with a changeover at the weekend.

An aside but the GD early 47/4s were incredibly rare south of Birmingham - not sure I ever saw one, and certainly none of the named examples. On that day it presumably must have traversed my local Portsmouth Direct line.

Generally fairly rare, but there was a period from 1986 (when the twin tank 47s took over the ECML trains) and May 1987 (when the remaining early machines were allocated to the Trans-Pennine pool) when they were more common than usual.

One I note on your route is
8/2/86
47625 1O27 Coventry-Portsmouth
47420 1E31 Portsmouth-Coventry

...and (to go back to the above thread) I've found a 1M03 for 1G61 move, with 415 going to Pompey three days running from the 4th-6th March
5/3/87
47415 1M03 Coventry-Liverpool
47418 1G61 Liverpool-Wolverhampton
47415 1O46 Wolverhampton-Banbury
47509 1M42 Banbury-Birmingham NS

I had 415 on 1M03 again the next day and it was withdrawn shortly afterwards.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I recall around 1970 a Lowestoft to York service. When I boarded it at Lowestoft (to go to Oulton Broad North, one stop!) I neglected to note its route. It was diesel-hauled and quite a few carriages, unlike most other services, which were DMUs. What route would it have been most likely to have taken?

 

[zwk500]

I recall around 1970 a Lowestoft to York service. When I boarded it at Lowestoft (to go to Oulton Broad North, one stop!) I neglected to note its route. It was diesel-hauled and quite a few carriages, unlike most other services, which were DMUs. What route would it have been most likely to have taken?

The 1967 Eastern Region timetable has a service on Page 253 (Table 50) here: https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=a130b868-dfa5-45b9-a4f5-ddbaa43c3319

10.18 off Lowestoft Central, calling Norwich Thorpe, Lincoln, Gainsborough Lea Road, Doncaster and York. It's not specifically mentioned but I assume from it's position on the March-Lincoln 'branch' of the Timetable that it avoided Peterborough. Interestingly the notes indicate that the trains continued to Newcastle for a short time.

 

[Man_with_beard]

The Rose Grove to Paignton always gets talked about here. Lets not forget Bradford to Paignton, Nottingham to Paignton, Liverpool to Paignton, Even Milton Keynes and Northampton had an odd one that varied between Penzance and Paignton each year.

I can also remember in 1994 there was a Penzance to Birmingham International stopper

 

[Andy873]

The Rose Grove to Paignton always gets talked about here. Lets not forget Bradford to Paignton, Nottingham to Paignton, Liverpool to Paignton, Even Milton Keynes and Northampton had an odd one that varied between Penzance and Paignton each year.

I can also remember in 1994 there was a Penzance to Birmingham International stopper

The Rose Grove to Paignton does get talked about a fair bit, and there are those others you've mentioned too - that is, lets not forget about them.

I thought I would re-read my summer 1962 WTT again covering Preston, East Lancs, Todmorden & Skipton. Here as some of the ones to note:


Times are am unless stated and BC is Blackpool Central, from 1962...

8 10 1M92 Hull BC SO 14/7 11/8
11 20 BC Newcastle SO 30/6 1/9
1H55 to Stockport from ? via Colne Weekdays
1M36 West Hartlepool to BC SO 14/7 11/8
1M84 11 55pm Glasgow Cen Man Ex Sundays until 19/8
1S78 8 59 pm Coventry Glasgow Cen FO / SO
1S19 10 50 pm SX & SUN Birmingham N. St Glasgow Cen
1S54 10 35 BC Perth SO 30/6 18/8
1L91 2 55 pm Lon Wuston Colne SO
1L92 10 pm Crewe Colne SX
1L64 5 19 pm Midge Hall (Leyland) Skipton SX

The 1H55 to Stockport, the WTT doesn't say where it came from?

Crewe to Colne is another one that stands out, but then again we all know the joke about changing at Crewe.

The Midge Hall one, starting there (it's near Leyland) and it runs at least to Skipton but I don't know (can't remember) its destination?. This one was covered briefly in another thread when I first got the WTT.

I'll be getting another WTT in about four weeks covering the summer of 1964, and I'm very interested to see just what was running back then compared to 1962. The summer 1964 WTT is of particular interest to me (one I've been waiting for a long time) as it is the final WTT that will show my old branch (North Lancs loop) before it was closed west of Padiham.

 

[30907]

1H55 to Stockport from ? via Colne Weekdays
1L92 10 pm Crewe Colne SX

I thought those were the through coaches Colne to Euston and vv.

1L64 5 19 pm Midge Hall (Leyland) Skipton SX

Through from Liverpool Ex, detached from a service via Preston.

 

[Andy873]

I thought those were the through coaches Colne to Euston and vv.

Thanks, that was it, it ran from Stockport to Euston but for a while was extended from Colne to Euston during the summer period.

 

[Magdalia]

I recall around 1970 a Lowestoft to York service. When I boarded it at Lowestoft (to go to Oulton Broad North, one stop!) I neglected to note its route. It was diesel-hauled and quite a few carriages, unlike most other services, which were DMUs. What route would it have been most likely to have taken?

The 1967 Eastern Region timetable has a service on Page 253 (Table 50) here: https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=a130b868-dfa5-45b9-a4f5-ddbaa43c3319

10.18 off Lowestoft Central, calling Norwich Thorpe, Lincoln, Gainsborough Lea Road, Doncaster and York. It's not specifically mentioned but I assume from it's position on the March-Lincoln 'branch' of the Timetable that it avoided Peterborough. Interestingly the notes indicate that the trains continued to Newcastle for a short time.

This is another long distance cross country service with a long history, rooted in the development of the GN/GE Joint Line. For a long time it had both Lowestoft and Yarmouth portions, joining/splitting at Reedham, with the buffet car in the Lowestoft portion. It went into Norwich but not Ely. On the Joint Line, between March and Doncaster, it called at the principal stations Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln and Gainsborough.

Trains ran through to/from Newcastle in summer, traditionally northbound on Fridays and Saturdays, southbound on Saturdays and Mondays. On some summer dates the Lowestoft and Yarmouth portions would be timetabled to run as separate trains, and they could also run as separate trains by special traffic arrangements, especially at Christmas, New Year, Easter and Whitsun.

The separate Yarmouth portion ceased in 1961 and the buffet car was withdrawn in 1966, when the daily train switched from Lowestoft to Yarmouth. But the summer Saturday working to/from Lowestoft lasted until 1969.

It last ran in its traditional times in the 1969/70 timetable, but survived in a slightly different guise until 1973. The southbound working became a Newcastle-Norwich, which returned north in the afternoon, while the northbound working became a Yarmouth-Doncaster which returned south in the afternoon.

The daily service on the Joint Line was reduced to DMUs in 1973, but the Yarmouth-Newcastle survived as a summer Saturday train, running via the Joint Line until 1982 then via the ECML until 1988.

 

[jamesr]

Penzance to Milford Haven is an illogical long distance train which ran for several years in the Wales & West days. 1145 from Penzance. Over 8 hours. About 120 miles as the crow flies.

I recall an Ealing Broadway to Weymouth (via Reading and Southampton) in the GBTT on dated summer Sundays at some point in the early 90s. Was never sure whether it was just an error in the timetable data.

 

[30907]

I recall an Ealing Broadway to Weymouth (via Reading and Southampton) in the GBTT on dated summer Sundays at some point in the early 90s. Was never sure whether it was just an error in the timetable data.

Unlikely - starting seaside trains from suburban stations was quite common at one time, as it gave suburban passengers a chance to board and avoided cluttering up the terminus. Sometimes it allowed the stock to come straight off the depot, which may have been the case at Ealing.

Off hand on the SR I can think of Wimbledon to Weymouth, Blackheath, Herne Hill and Bromley South to Ramsgate (1950s), Forest Hill and Streatham Hill to Brighton (1950s but electric), and Denmark Hill or Elephant to Ramsgate (recent).
In most cases the return equivalent was through to the London terminus.

 

[6Gman]

A through train from Glasgow to Whitley Bay would be impossible today but was a regular summer Saturday service in the 1950s.

 

[devon_belle]

Long before I was born, but while doing research I was surprised to find LMS services from Derby to Exmouth and Sidmouth in the 30s.

 

[MadMac]

A through train from Glasgow to Whitley Bay would be impossible today but was a regular summer Saturday service in the 1950s.

There was a Saturday DMU service to Whitley Bay that ran from Queen Street in the 70s - it appeared on a BBC documentary about people going on holiday. The empties came from Newcastle because they had to be sets with barred windows - they would get fuel at Eastfield then come into Queen Street.

 

[6Gman]

Long before I was born, but while doing research I was surprised to find LMS services from Derby to Exmouth and Sidmouth in the 30s.

All to do with the Midland Railway - London & South Western Railway link-up as joint owners of the Somerset & Dorset.

 

[wilbers]

I had a job interview in 1997 near Bournemouth (actually went a short distance further, to Wool) and was a direct train from Penrith to Bournemouth (terminated at Bournemouth, I don't know where it started from, but somewhere in Scotland). I remember it reversing at Reading, but I'm not sure of the exact route it went.

 

[MadMac]

There was a Saturday DMU service to Whitley Bay that ran from Queen Street in the 70s - it appeared on a BBC documentary about people going on holiday. The empties came from Newcastle because they had to be sets with barred windows - they would get fuel at Eastfield then come into Queen Street.

Here we go: Whitley Bay