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Is a new system needed to automatically stop trains which pass through a red signal?

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Bartsimho

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We need more automated signalling so the train knows there is a red, and if not acknowledged, will stop itself.
 
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Irascible

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You don't want a simple acknowledgement anyway, because that sort of thing can become unconcious behaviour. I forget how TPWS works - it'll obviously let you pass a red *somehow* because there's times it's needed, but it'd catch out someone not paying attention.

As has been said though, these things have been in place for years already.
 

craigybagel

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You don't want a simple acknowledgement anyway, because that sort of thing can become unconcious behaviour. I forget how TPWS works - it'll obviously let you pass a red *somehow* because there's times it's needed, but it'd catch out someone not paying attention.

There's an override button that when pressed suppresses TPWS for 20 seconds or until a signal at danger is passed. This is typically used when a driver needs to pass a single signal at danger with authority.

There's a temporary override switch that will isolate TPWS for as long as the switch is activated - but on passenger units it will typically have a seal fitted to show if it's been used or not.

The third way is to trip an MCB and isolate the entire TPWS & AWS system, which can be used if there's a serious fault with either system that would otherwise prevent the train from moving - but obviously there are very strict rules around what you can and can't do under those circumstances.

In any case though I'm not entirely sure what the point of this thread is - the train passed a red signal and was stopped safely, as it was designed to do. In the subsequent investigation it was discovered that the driver was over the drink driving limit.
 

Irascible

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For the OP's peace of mind, also - TVM and I think ETCS higher levels ( I haven't studied any signalling for about a decade now, so I'm uncertain here ) and likely other systems I forget have speed monitoring vs braking curves & will apply the brakes if the system thinks the train isn't slowing enough for the next aspect. TPWS has a basic speed monitoring functionality also, but it's obviously not continuous like cab systems. We are moving to ETCS slowly in the UK, so no need to cook up another new system.
 

zwk500

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For the OP's peace of mind, also - TVM and I think ETCS higher levels ( I haven't studied any signalling for about a decade now, so I'm uncertain here ) and likely other systems I forget have speed monitoring vs braking curves & will apply the brakes if the system thinks the train isn't slowing enough for the next aspect. TPWS has a basic speed monitoring functionality also, but it's obviously not continuous like cab systems. We are moving to ETCS slowly in the UK, so no need to cook up another new system.
TVM won't be fitted to any more lines in the UK, I'd have thought. All Levels of ETCS have ATP functionality - the UK is skipping straight to L2 (In-cab fixed-block) because L1 (lineside signals with Speed supervision) is poor value for money - it's essentially just a different spec of ATP, so doesn't give much improvement over TPWS(+/++). L3 (moving block) is the theoretical goal but AFAIK is not in development for service deployment anywhere in Europe.

For the OP - the UK trialled two different setups of a system called ATP (Automatic Train Protection) on the GW and Chiltern lines, which supervises the train's speed so that it does not exceed what's known as the Braking curve (the speed profile approaching the signal) to stop safely when it's at red. It was only installed on the trial basis because analysis showed it to be poor value for the extra cost on top of TPWS - which trips if the driver exceeds a set speed approaching Signals at red or sharp speed restrictions.
 

Fleetmaster

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Automatic Train Protection was mandated years ago. Does exactly what it says on the tin and automatically brings a train to a stop if it passes passes a red signal. Too costly and ideally redundant to moving block signalling being rolled out instead, was the given reason for ignoring this edict. A little optimistic to say the least. Not sure if there has been any fatalities directly attributed to its absence since, but it is a possibility for sure.
 

zwk500

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Automatic Train Protection was mandated years ago. Does exactly what it says on the tin and automatically brings a train to a stop if it passes passes a red signal. Too costly and ideally redundant to moving block signalling being rolled out instead, was the given reason for ignoring this edict. A little optimistic to say the least. Not sure if there has been any fatalities directly attributed to its absence since, but it is a possibility for sure.
AIUI the justification given for abandoning ATP was that TPWS did the important bit for a fraction of the cost, even if it lost some of the finer applications.

ETCS comes with ATP built-in, effectively.
 

craigybagel

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Automatic Train Protection was mandated years ago. Does exactly what it says on the tin and automatically brings a train to a stop if it passes passes a red signal. Too costly and ideally redundant to moving block signalling being rolled out instead, was the given reason for ignoring this edict. A little optimistic to say the least. Not sure if there has been any fatalities directly attributed to its absence since, but it is a possibility for sure.

AIUI the justification given for abandoning ATP was that TPWS did the important bit for a fraction of the cost, even if it lost some of the finer applications.

ETCS comes with ATP built-in, effectively.

There hasn't been a single fatality on the national network caused by a SPAD or speeding in the ~ 20 years since the national roll out of TPWS. Given how many fatal incidents there were in the 20 years before that, I'd say it's working pretty well - though I'm scared I'm tempting fate here.
 

zwk500

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There hasn't been a single fatality on the national network caused by a SPAD or speeding in the ~ 20 years since the national roll out of TPWS. Given how many fatal incidents there were in the 20 years before that, I'd say it's working pretty well - though I'm scared I'm tempting fate here.
I'd amend that slightly to say that there has not been a fatal incident where the higher level of protection offered by ATP could have prevented an accident that TPWS failed to prevent.
Salisbury was a SPAD on a TPWS line, but the driver was well within the braking curve when the train slipped due to leaf mulch contamination and no ATP system would have helped.
There was also a Lumo incident where the train went through a crossover at full line speed that caused injuries but no fatalities, which ATP would have prevented by TPWS did not.
Overall TPWS (with the later enchancements) has done its job commendably.
 

craigybagel

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I'd amend that slightly to say that there has not been a fatal incident where the higher level of protection offered by ATP could have prevented an accident that TPWS failed to prevent.
Salisbury was a SPAD on a TPWS line, but the driver was well within the braking curve when the train slipped due to leaf mulch contamination and no ATP system would have helped.
There was also a Lumo incident where the train went through a crossover at full line speed that caused injuries but no fatalities, which ATP would have prevented by TPWS did not.
Overall TPWS (with the later enchancements) has done its job commendably.
That's a fair point. I'm eagerly awaiting the publication of the report into the LUMO incident - and whether there's any holes in the TPWS safety net the train slipped through that can be fixed without going for ATP.
 

zwk500

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That's a fair point. I'm eagerly awaiting the publication of the report into the LUMO incident - and whether there's any holes in the TPWS safety net the train slipped through that can be fixed without going for ATP.
Yes, will be interesting to see the recommendations. However with ETCS imminent for the ECML, the level of incidence of this type of problem and the difficulty in having a switchable by route TPWS, I don't anticipate major changes.

Separately I just want to register my constant amazement at the feat of engineering design that TPWS is. Using nothing but the most simple equipment and most basic principles of physics, they designs a system for effectively tuppence that can bring a 125mph train safely to a stand.
 

whoosh

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Did TPWS not bring this train to a stand anyway? Whereupon the driver reported his SPAD?
 

craigybagel

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Did TPWS not bring this train to a stand anyway? Whereupon the driver reported his SPAD?
As far as we can tell, yes, making most of this discussion rather moot.
Yes, will be interesting to see the recommendations. However with ETCS imminent for the ECML, the level of incidence of this type of problem and the difficulty in having a switchable by route TPWS, I don't anticipate major changes.
I'm hoping that the fact the location where the incident happened is soon to be fitted with ETCS doesn't distract the RAIB from the fact that most of the network isn't likely receive the same treatment - and if there is a gap in TPWS's abilities, it needs looking at.
 

D365

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We need more automated signalling so the train knows there is a red, and if not acknowledged, will stop itself.
Given that you've also posted a recent speculative thread regarding the potential capabilities of ETCS, I'm surprised that you neglected to mention it in this post here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Separately I just want to register my constant amazement at the feat of engineering design that TPWS is.
Only if you talk to the right people! For rolling stock integrators, debugging the hardware is seemingly a feat in itself.
 

Fleetmaster

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AIUI the justification given for abandoning ATP was that TPWS did the important bit for a fraction of the cost, even if it lost some of the finer applications.

ETCS comes with ATP built-in, effectively.
The important bit being stopping the train....
I'd amend that slightly to say that there has not been a fatal incident where the higher level of protection offered by ATP could have prevented an accident that TPWS failed to prevent.

There was also a Lumo incident where the train went through a crossover at full line speed that caused injuries but no fatalities, which ATP would have prevented by TPWS did not.
And there we go. By the grace of deity, the fraction of the cost has been enough so far.

Until it isn't.
 

43096

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The important bit being stopping the train....

And there we go. By the grace of deity, the fraction of the cost has been enough so far.

Until it isn't.
Perhaps you could tell us when the last fatal accident was that could have been prevented by ATP but AWS/TPWS would have been/was ineffective?
 

Falcon1200

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Separately I just want to register my constant amazement at the feat of engineering design that TPWS is. Using nothing but the most simple equipment and most basic principles of physics, they designs a system for effectively tuppence that can bring a 125mph train safely to a stand.

I agree, and have to add that IMHO TPWS is one of the greatest single improvements in rail safety since interlocking of signalling.
 

zwk500

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I agree, and have to add that IMHO TPWS is one of the greatest single improvements in rail safety since interlocking of signalling.
I'd put the track circuit above TPWS, personally. TPWS is great for what it is, but it does leave some important problems - it cannot cope with different speeds on diverging routes, it cannot adjust to different speed profiles, and it provides no advance warning before tripping the brakes. I also have it in the back of my mind that it's not fail-safe, as the grids require power to activate.
 

edwin_m

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Yes, will be interesting to see the recommendations. However with ETCS imminent for the ECML, the level of incidence of this type of problem and the difficulty in having a switchable by route TPWS, I don't anticipate major changes.

Separately I just want to register my constant amazement at the feat of engineering design that TPWS is. Using nothing but the most simple equipment and most basic principles of physics, they designs a system for effectively tuppence that can bring a 125mph train safely to a stand.
In principle it ought to be possible to trigger different TPWS loops at the approach to a junction depending on the route set. This information is readily available in the interlocking but would need to be passed to the loops via a new control to the trackside. I assume this didn't happen at Peterborough because of the difficulty in modifying a 1970s-era relay interlocking, but does anyone know if it is done on newer signalling schemes elsewhere?

I was involved in the early days of TPWS circa 1994, when some colleagues analysed the accident reports back to around 1968 to assess whether the accident would have been less severe, or would not have happened at all, if a TPWS-like system had been fitted at the time. This also allowed for the fact that the older rolling stock involved in many of these accidents would now be replaced by newer and more survivable designs. The conclusion was that TPWS would avert about 70% of the casualties that an ATP system would, which was noted with some skepticism by Uff-Cullen but borne out some years later in an analysis by Stanley Hall in Modern Railways magazine. TPWS+ has probably improved this further since then. Even then the predicted cost was near the maximum that the expected casualty reduction would justify, and the cost later increased due to measures such as proving the system operational.

I'd put the track circuit above TPWS, personally. TPWS is great for what it is, but it does leave some important problems - it cannot cope with different speeds on diverging routes, it cannot adjust to different speed profiles, and it provides no advance warning before tripping the brakes. I also have it in the back of my mind that it's not fail-safe, as the grids require power to activate.
I'd probably agree with you on the track circuit, although the number of accidents in absolute block areas with limited track circuiting may make track circuit block a better candidate.

The lack of failsafe was known and agreed at the time by senior people in BR and Railtrack (who unlike some of their successors actually had both technical knowledge and influence within the organisation). To cause a SPAD-related accident it is necessary for the TPWS to fail but also for some other event to occur such as the driver misinterpreting the signal or braking too late. Both of these should be very unusual circumstances so the chance of both at the same time is infinitesimal - provided TPWS failures are promptly identified and remedied so they don't remain as latent faults. It's worth noting that a modern safety integrity analysis wouldn't consider AWS to be failsafe either.
 

zwk500

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In principle it ought to be possible to trigger different TPWS loops at the approach to a junction depending on the route set. This information is readily available in the interlocking but would need to be passed to the loops via a new control to the trackside. I assume this didn't happen at Peterborough because of the difficulty in modifying a 1970s-era relay interlocking, but does anyone know if it is done on newer signalling schemes elsewhere?
I've not seen anything to say that it is, but @Ashley Hill, @Railsigns or @Annetts key may be able to give more info.
I'd probably agree with you on the track circuit, although the number of accidents in absolute block areas with limited track circuiting may make track circuit block a better candidate.
TCB is an application of the Track Circuit technology, so there's a semantic issue there.
It's worth noting that a modern safety integrity analysis wouldn't consider AWS to be failsafe either.
Interesting, could you expand on why? I thought the magnet being suppressed with an electromagnet was a fail-safe design.
 

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It isn't current practice to install TPWS to enforce the speed of trains through diverging routes with any form of approach control signalling.
 

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Interesting, could you expand on why? I thought the magnet being suppressed with an electromagnet was a fail-safe design.
I'd say the fact a driver can acknowledge a cautionary warning, then continue at full speed as if it had not been given is the biggest weakness of AWS. The equivalent function in the German Indusi system enforces an acknowledgment, then supervises a controlled slow-down over a measured distance before releasing, otherwise a full brake application to a stand is made.
It isn't current practice to install TPWS to enforce the speed of trains through diverging routes with any form of approach control signalling.
Though at a signal with an overspeed grid, it's possible a poorly controlled train might be going fast enough to be tripped before the aspect releases from red, although TPWS would not be provided JUST for that, so such an OSS would have been provided primarily for another crossing or merge conflict in the route. When the second major phase of nationwide TPWS fitment was being formulated, known as TPWS+, differential speed control at diverging junctions was considered but safety authorities thought it more of a priority to cater for higher speed (greater than around 75mph) convergence protection, significant non-junction speed restrictions (greater than a third reduction) and buffer stops. It would be possible to use multiple grids of the standard overspeed type, switched according to which route was set through a diverging junction, but complexity and failure potential would be increased.
 

D365

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I'd say the fact a driver can acknowledge a cautionary warning, then continue at full speed as if it had not been given is the biggest weakness of AWS. The equivalent function in the German Indusi system enforces an acknowledgment, then supervises a controlled slow-down over a measured distance before releasing, otherwise a full brake application to a stand is made.
Sounds rather like ETCS!
 

alxndr

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I also have it in the back of my mind that it's not fail-safe, as the grids require power to activate.
It is not fail-safe, but it is protected somewhat by the fact that a power failure, or the majority of other fault conditions, will lead to the proving contacts for the TPWS circuitry not making. This will alert the signaller of the failure and prevent the signal in rear from clearing whilst the signal associated with the defective TPWS is at danger. It doesn't make it impossible for all the holes in the analogical Swiss cheese to line up, but it does add a few more layers to it.
 

edwin_m

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Interesting, could you expand on why? I thought the magnet being suppressed with an electromagnet was a fail-safe design.
It's failsafe in that sense, but hasn't undergone the sort of rigorous analysis that would be done for a modern system at a high Safety Integrity Level. Then again, nor have most traditional signalling systems. I was told by someone who should know that London Underground, having continue to install mechanical interlockings into the 1980s, tried to move to relay technology on the traditional basis that a failed relay would always drop, but couldn't prove this absolutely under the safety engineering practices that had come in by that time.
 

Fleetmaster

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Perhaps you could tell us when the last fatal accident was that could have been prevented by ATP but AWS/TPWS would have been/was ineffective?
I don't really need to, because in all the relevant legislation, investigative protocols and engineering standards, luck isn't a factor.

An RAIB report will of course note that fatalities didn't occur as a matter of luck, not events+design, and it is hoped and expected that this is sufficient to ensure a future coroner's report doesn't need to state that the fatalities might not have occurred if only they had been a little luckier.
 

XAM2175

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I'd put the track circuit above TPWS, personally. TPWS is great for what it is, but it does leave some important problems - it cannot cope with different speeds on diverging routes, it cannot adjust to different speed profiles, and it provides no advance warning before tripping the brakes. I also have it in the back of my mind that it's not fail-safe, as the grids require power to activate.
I'd say the fact a driver can acknowledge a cautionary warning, then continue at full speed as if it had not been given is the biggest weakness of AWS. The equivalent function in the German Indusi system enforces an acknowledgment, then supervises a controlled slow-down over a measured distance before releasing, otherwise a full brake application to a stand is made.
Sounds rather like ETCS!
Yes, PZB (as Indusi was renamed) is a remarkable achievement in and of itself, especially considering how long ago it was developed. Notably it also offers the ability to impose one of three different brake curves on a train-by-train basis with only one set of balises.
 
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