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Formal offer to ASLEF by RDG

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JonathanH

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No, they don't and they are certainly more than able to make that offer
There is a finite budget. Money spent on pay needs to be saved somewhere else in the DfT budget. Rightly or wrongly, it is a zero sum game.

What offer are RDG more than able to make? The existing pay offer, but with no changes to T&Cs, or something better?
 
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brick60000

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100%. Any of our internal colleagues who think it’s a nice easy number are welcome to apply to go driving!

I’m not sure that many internal colleagues think that. Some probably do, but by no means loads.

What many internal colleagues tire of during these disputes is statements from the driving grade like “the railway doesn’t run without us”.

Of course, that’s true. But the railway doesn’t run without plenty of other people. They’re all as important, and sometimes this gets lost in the crossfire and gets people’s back up.

No, they don't and they are certainly more than able to make that offer

Where’s your evidence for this? If the treasury says no, then the treasury says no. The RDG are most likely as powerless as the TOCs - and it must be as infuriating for them.
 

Master29

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I’m not sure that many internal colleagues think that. Some probably do, but by no means loads.

What many internal colleagues tire of during these disputes is statements from the driving grade like “the railway doesn’t run without us”.

Of course, that’s true. But the railway doesn’t run without plenty of other people. They’re all as important, and sometimes this gets lost in the crossfire and gets people’s back up.



Where’s your evidence for this? If the treasury says no, then the treasury says no. The RDG are most likely as powerless as the TOCs - and it must be as infuriating for them.
It's irrelevant what the treasury says and what evidence is out there. If they want to pull a rabbit out of a hat they are more than capable of conjuring money out of thin air but I don't believe they would if they could. In this case they won't because it means "giving in".
 

dk1

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Think we’ll all just have to suck it up for another year and hope the 2024 GE blows in better winds.
 

JonathanH

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If they want to pull a rabbit out of a hat they are more than capable of conjuring money out of thin air but I don't believe they would if they could.
If the Treasury say there is no money, neither DfT, nor RDG can conjure money out of thin air. It would need to come from some other cut elsewhere in the relevant budgets.

For instance, even though DfT are making a £1bn saving in its budget to create further smart motorways, that money can't be used to pay higher wages for rail workers.
 

Bevan Price

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And? The kind of people who think everyone who earns more than them is “greedy”, are the kind of people whose views simply aren’t worth listening to. This is the definition of racing to the bottom; demonising those who try to stand up for themselves, while a cabinet of millionaires tell you the real enemy is the bloke down the road on a few quid more than you. It’s for the birds!

People who earn £50 - £70k + have bills commensurate with that, all of which have gone up since 2019 when many of us last had a pay rise.

But average wage growth in the economy is more than that (currently circa 6% averaged across both public and private sector I believe), and generally for no or fewer strings. Many sectors have seen significant growth into the double digit %s.
Yes, your bills have gone up - but you should expect little sympathy from those who take home half - or less - the amount you receive. I don't know - or care - what you spend it on, but a lot of people have to be a lot more cautious in how they spend their money - but is not impossible to learn how to live reasonably comfortably on, say, £30k or less (and I am one of them from my pension income). For example, nobody NEEDS cars the size of minibuses, or subscriptions to multiple satellite TV channels, etc., etc. They have to choose between "nice to have" and "essential purchases".

I would agree that the cabinet is an over-rich, uncaring shower, and also think that many company directors are grossly overpaid, and get totally undeserved bonuses.
 

brick60000

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It's irrelevant what the treasury says and what evidence is out there. If they want to pull a rabbit out of a hat they are more than capable of conjuring money out of thin air but I don't believe they would if they could. In this case they won't because it means "giving in".

It’s irrelevant what the person who pays the bills says? o_O

Roll back to Christmas when a certain government decided to insert DOO at the last minute.

The government are the ones holding the cards here!
 

Goldfish62

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Think we’ll all just have to suck it up for another year and hope the 2024 GE blows in better winds.
The current "government" will probably be very happy with that prospect. No pay rise for drivers for yet another year and either dump the problem on Labour or, heaven forbid, get re-elected and newly emboldened to carry on where it left off.
 

dk1

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The current "government" will probably be very happy with that prospect. No pay rise for drivers for yet another year and either dump the problem on Labour or, heaven forbid, get re-elected and newly emboldened to carry on where it left off.

That’s just the way it seems to be going.
 

JonathanH

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Therefore another year of regular strikes is just peeing in the wind.
The difficulty though is that because the dispute involves T&C changes, the unions can't just accept the pay offer and come back in 2024 for something better.

They will therefore need to remain in dispute, hoping for something better now, and that involves at least some kind of industrial action. I'm not sure where a dispute without industrial action would get anyone.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If the Treasury say there is no money, neither DfT, nor RDG can conjure money out of thin air. It would need to come from some other cut elsewhere in the relevant budgets.

For instance, even though DfT are making a £1bn saving in its budget to create further smart motorways, that money can't be used to pay higher wages for rail workers.
Has there been any further developments since the last official statement was made with regard to the position of smart motorways?
 

Master29

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It’s irrelevant what the person who pays the bills says? o_O

Roll back to Christmas when a certain government decided to insert DOO at the last minute.

The government are the ones holding the cards here!
Yes, because they will say whatever they are told to say whether they have the funds or not. You can believe what you will.
 

Kite159

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Think we’ll all just have to suck it up for another year and hope the 2024 GE blows in better winds.
With the large assumption that Labour will roll over and dish out the cash ahead of all the other public sector demands?
 

dk1

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.

With the large assumption that Labour will roll over and dish out the cash ahead of all the other public sector demands?

Not really. I’m under no illusions. We’ll just have to muddle through then wait & see.
 

brick60000

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Yes, because they will say whatever they are told to say whether they have the funds or not. You can believe what you will.

If they are told what to say, they are also more than likely told what they can spend?

There’s nothing to believe or otherwise. The treasury don’t want to spend the money, plain and simple.
 

Master29

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If they are told what to say, they are also more than likely told what they can spend?

There’s nothing to believe or otherwise. The treasury don’t want to spend the money, plain and simple.
Precisely my point.
 

Mcrdvr

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When many drivers take home around £50-60k per year, like it or not, many of the public will think they are greedy to turn down a 4% offer. A lot of people get much less than £50k per year.
Jaysus , it's not the crap pay offer we're turning down as such , it's the more strings than a harp attack on our terms and conditions we don't want.
 

irish_rail

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Jaysus , it's not the crap pay offer we're turning down as such , it's the more strings than a harp attack on our terms and conditions we don't want.
Seconded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If the Tories think this is a good gamble I think they are mistaken. All the continuing strike woes throughout the public sector does is paint a picture of an inefficient poorly run and failing economy. They may think they are appealing to a small section of "im alright jack" electorate who feel nobody deserves the same pensions etc as them, but the vast majority of people in this country have woken up to how utterly economically incompetent the current so called elected government is. Its another nail in the Tory coffin.
 

Krokodil

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Whether you like the terms that are in the offer or not, this statement is incorrect.

It’s the very fact that they will improve productivity, to the (argued) detriment of members, that the union doesn’t like the offer….!

I’m sure nobody would be turning down a payrise for conditions that made you less productive….
"Made you less productive"? What do you mean? I'm neither in ASLEF, nor working for any of the operators involved in this dispute.

Kindly illustrate how the government's "modernisations" will improve the productivity of the average driver. Remember that this is the same DfT that has encouraged a route knowledge cull that has substantially reduced the annual mileage of TPE's drivers. The government wants to take rostering out of the hands of the LDC reps and take them away from any diagram oversight. That's asking for chaos, I've seen plenty of unproductive diagrams spat out by the all-singing, all-dancing train planning computer system; plus plenty that are so tight that they fall apart at the slightest delay. A decent LDC will cut and paste bits between those diagrams to produce something more sensible.

Demoralising the workforce won't help productivity either. I hear that one depot (can't remember which firm but probably either TPE or Northern) has lost a quarter of its complement in one year, mostly to FOCs. Trainee drivers aren't productive until they pass out, so if you have poor retention you will have more cabs with two people sat in them than you did back when secondmen were still a thing. With a demoralised staff left unwilling to work overtime, you have to increase your spare cover to ensure that you can run the service. Spare crews sitting around aren't productive - there's a reason that it is cheaper to use RDW to fill the odd gap in the roster.

So please back up this point with some hard evidence (not DfT theory):
It’s the very fact that they will improve productivity
 

irish_rail

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"Made you less productive"? What do you mean? I'm neither in ASLEF, nor working for any of the operators involved in this dispute.

Kindly illustrate how the government's "modernisations" will improve the productivity of the average driver. Remember that this is the same DfT that has encouraged a route knowledge cull that has substantially reduced the annual mileage of TPE's drivers. The government wants to take rostering out of the hands of the LDC reps and take them away from any diagram oversight. That's asking for chaos, I've seen plenty of unproductive diagrams spat out by the all-singing, all-dancing train planning computer system; plus plenty that are so tight that they fall apart at the slightest delay. A decent LDC will cut and paste bits between those diagrams to produce something more sensible.

Demoralising the workforce won't help productivity either. I hear that one depot (can't remember which firm but probably either TPE or Northern) has lost a quarter of its complement in one year, mostly to FOCs. Trainee drivers aren't productive until they pass out, so if you have poor retention you will have more cabs with two people sat in them than you did back when secondmen were still a thing. With a demoralised staff left unwilling to work overtime, you have to increase your spare cover to ensure that you can run the service. Spare crews sitting around aren't productive - there's a reason that it is cheaper to use RDW to fill the odd gap in the roster.

So please back up this point with some hard evidence (not DfT theory):
Completely agree. If the Dft where serious about improving productivity they would look at improving route knowledge cards , and focus on better driver utilisation, ie have a driver drive Plymouth to London and back rather than have the service crewed by 6 different crew members changing over 3 times on route each way! Its basic stuff, doesn't take a genius to work out one crew member working a service is cheaper than 6! As you say its even more extreme on TPE, and the negative effect on morale is completely overlooked even though it costs them when staff decide to up sticks.
To give an example, Plymouth have a job from May as follows. Pass to Westbury. Break . Pass to Swindon. Drive Swindon to Bristol. Pass to Taunton. Pass to Exeter, and finally drive to Plymouth. Its all so horribly inefficient, yet it didn't used to be. Plymouth drivers previously had plenty of Plymouth to Paddington and back to Plymouth jobs. That's efficient for everyone. The current setup is not.
 

Annetts key

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Oh good grief, you know exactly what I meant... :rolleyes:
The real trouble is, not only are the railways going backwards due to this incompetent government, so are most of the other things that government is responsible for, including the road network, the schools, the NHS including hospitals, GP surgeries, dentists, the military, foreign overseas aid, the upkeep of the parliament buildings, and many other things.

Oh, and having been heavy involved with unions for more time than I care to remember, I’m well aware of the issues from the membership drifting back, of the possibility of the more vocal members making sure their voice is heard, but not that of the members that are not so keen, and of the potential problems of the decision making part of the union loosing touch with the membership.

I can’t speak for ASLEF, but the RMT are well aware of the problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The railway is losing significant amounts of money compared to pre-covid, business travel is only 40% and commuting around 65%, it takes a lot of advance tickets to replace a full price first class one
First, the railways have been losing significant amounts of money since before any of us were born.

Secondly, the other factors that are being ignored, are that the economy is in a poor state, and it may well be that this is a significant reason why the ticket income has not been as good as previously hoped.

And thirdly, due to the way that the railways are funded, most railway businesses are now being hit by increased costs due to poor government management and the higher costs due to a certain war.
 
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Krokodil

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Talking to some teachers, it appears that the government has found ways to make them more productive. In short it pisses them off enough that they end up leaving, then combines several classes together under the supervision of a cover supervisor or TA. I suppose that it keeps the kids off of the streets, even if they won't learn anything.
 

brick60000

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Kindly illustrate how the government's "modernisations" will improve the productivity of the average driver. Remember that this is the same DfT that has encouraged a route knowledge cull that has substantially reduced the annual mileage of TPE's drivers. The government wants to take rostering out of the hands of the LDC reps and take them away from any diagram oversight. That's asking for chaos, I've seen plenty of unproductive diagrams spat out by the all-singing, all-dancing train planning computer system; plus plenty that are so tight that they fall apart at the slightest delay. A decent LDC will cut and paste bits between those diagrams to produce something more sensible.
Many of the proposals seek to allow more flexible crew diagramming & rostering.

Eg less stringent rules about PNB placement, less strict rules about where work is positioned (eg which depot has claim to a certain route). By removing constraints, you open up the floor to productivity improvements - whether that’s right or wrong is a different arguement. But it will theoretically enable improved productivity.

Anybody that thinks Train Planning (in particular Train Crew) has anything that remotely resembles an “all singing all dancing” system has probably never worked in, or observed, the process of train crew diagramming. It’s really not that! An awful lot of train crew diagramming is done manually, with a lot more constraints than most people realise, with far more considerations than just what looks nice on paper. Something that may appear completely barking mad on 1 diagram may allow 5 other diagrams to work and make sense.


Completely agree. If the Dft where serious about improving productivity they would look at improving route knowledge cards , and focus on better driver utilisation, ie have a driver drive Plymouth to London and back rather than have the service crewed by 6 different crew members changing over 3 times on route each way! Its basic stuff, doesn't take a genius to work out one crew member working a service is cheaper than 6! As you say its even more extreme on TPE, and the negative effect on morale is completely overlooked even though it costs them when staff decide to up sticks.
To give an example, Plymouth have a job from May as follows. Pass to Westbury. Break . Pass to Swindon. Drive Swindon to Bristol. Pass to Taunton. Pass to Exeter, and finally drive to Plymouth. Its all so horribly inefficient, yet it didn't used to be. Plymouth drivers previously had plenty of Plymouth to Paddington and back to Plymouth jobs. That's efficient for everyone. The current setup is not

There’s a few points here:

Route knowledge is a double edged sword. It’s great to have vast route cards, but that also means you have to maintain it. If there are agreements in place that mean depots have to physically drive a route rather than route refresh to maintain knowledge, then forcing work into diagrams can generate inefficiencies.

End to end working definitely has its place. But again that’s a double edged sword. If, particularly on long distance services, you don’t have any crew reliefs then you also lose any opportunity to “roll over” a service and restart it from an intermediate location (assuming stock is available).

You might also want crew reliefs to break up continuous driving.
 

xtpe

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Not sure how it will backfire.
The reason why it's being held in the UK is due to a war in the Ukraine where people are actually losing their lives and we have been given the privilege of holding the competition on Ukraines behalf.
 

Krokodil

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Many of the proposals seek to allow more flexible crew diagramming & rostering.
Ah yes, 24hr movement of spares etc. How much do you think that this will actually save in practice, compared with how much it will cost to replace the staff who are moving elsewhere because the pay isn't worth the disruption to family life? Rolling rest day patterns allow staff to have some degree of certainty in their lives, while still providing 24/7 cover. Staff are humans, not robots, they'd like to see their kids grow up, even only on every third weekend. Virgin had many of these conditions, but because they paid well so it worked. Poor conditions with Northern rates of pay will only worsen the exodus out from the DfT TOCs.

In what way will removing the LDCs from rostering save money? Someone will still have to compile rosters and check diagrams for howlers.

Anybody that thinks Train Planning (in particular Train Crew) has anything that remotely resembles an “all singing all dancing” system
That's certainly the gist of how the new system was trumpeted when it was introduced. Plenty of back-slapping upstairs. Of course you then need staff to introduce some intelligent thought into the process...

Something that may appear completely barking mad on 1 diagram may allow 5 other diagrams to work and make sense.
Do tell me why several diagrams having staff travelling Pass, to work a train that someone else is Pass on "makes sense". And before you ask, it's all well within the maximum hours between breaks, there's no separate "continuous time in the seat" rule here or anything. Some of those silly diagrams have cost a fortune in taxis, or in spare crews being needlessly tied up when things have gone wrong.

It’s great to have vast route cards, but that also means you have to maintain it.
At Plymouth, the LDC came up with workable diagrams so that the HSS link could retain Bristol-Taunton on their cards. This was rejected by management (for political reasons). It really didn't take long before the Berks & Hants became blocked and trains ended up stuck at Taunton waiting for a relief driver to arrive by road (yet another taxi).

If the DfT really wanted to improve productivity, they'd reverse the fragmentation of the railway. So much duplication involved in having four different depots at one terminus. Not forgetting ECS moves running in opposite directions at the start and end of the day. Diversionary route knowledge wasn't an issue either when the same company operated services on both routes.

If, particularly on long distance services, you don’t have any crew reliefs then you also lose any opportunity to “roll over” a service and restart it from an intermediate location (assuming stock is available).
And that the crew are in the right place. How many trains did TPE dump in Manchester Victoria and Leeds with no onward crew before Network Rail put its foot down and insisted that unless a train was covered throughout it should be cancelled throughout? I think that at one point three out of the four through platforms at MCV were blocked by stranded units, while a signaller elsewhere entered "THX TPE" into the train describer. Key thing of course is to only plan reliefs at locations where you actually have a traincrew depot.

On the other hand, I was at a station recently just after a fatality had happened down line. Even without the afflicted train having a booked relief, it was restarted using a spare crew and a . The service on the rest of the network was maintained with a combination of spare staff/units, and redeploying those displaced by disruption.
 

Watershed

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If the DfT really wanted to improve productivity, they'd reverse the fragmentation of the railway. So much duplication involved in having four different depots at one terminus. Not forgetting ECS moves running in opposite directions at the start and end of the day. Diversionary route knowledge wasn't an issue either when the same company operated services on both routes.
Think I know exactly where you're talking about there. It's utterly bonkers; there's another example where every job at a particular depot involves a 50 mile pass/taxi before and after working a train. On some diagrams at said depot, there's 1.5 hours' driving on a near max length turn! Work that one out...

However, much as it's easy to see that there are tremendous inefficiencies through fragmentation, the DfT isn't wrong to want some improvements on productivity. Some of the limitations and conditions I've seen (and heard of) really have no justifiable purpose but just so happen to work out in drivers' favour...

As with so many of these things, both sides will tell you their version and the truth is somewhere in between. It's just unfortunate that neither side cares about the travelling public, who have to endure the fallout from their dispute. I really do fear things might get worse before they improve.
 
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