Formal offer to ASLEF by RDG

[VP185]

Not entirely unexpected news from ASLEF.

The government have no intention of settling these disputes. Good to see ASLEF finally ramping up its action.

 

[357]

Which strike is this one? I'm seeing ASLEF in the title, so is it about driver pay?

Do you know who ASLEF is?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good to see ASLEF finally ramping up its action.

As I'm sure you're well aware, that's without doubt a statement many will not agree on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==

Do you know who ASLEF is?

Britain's trade union for train drivers, I'd be a little concerned if I didn't know that.

 

[Frankfurt]

Being cynical I wonder if they've just strung ASLEF along until they got past the 2 week window before the coronation.

Looks that way to me.

Not entirely unexpected news from ASLEF.

The government have no intention of settling these disputes. Good to see ASLEF finally ramping up its action.

I agree.

 

[VP185]

As I'm sure you're well aware, that's without doubt a statement many will not agree on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==

Probably but when the details of the offer are made public I’m sure it’ll be quite obvious why it has been rejected.

03 June, FA Cup final day isn’t it?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I was feeling the same as you. A real pity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2023 ==



Looks like 12th and 31st May, 3rd June. Also withdrawal of overtime (I’m not quite clear whether that’s TOC specific or national, so I won’t mention the dates).

This is from an internal communication (obviously) but should be publicly available shortly.

Looks like my holiday should be safe then. Not surprised about 3rd June, I'd have put money on a strike on FA Cup Final day if Paddy Power had offered it.

 

[Efini92]

Being cynical I wonder if they've just strung ASLEF along until they got past the 2 week window before the coronation.

Agreed. We’ve been saying this for weeks. Didn’t come as a surprise at all

 

[dk1]

I'm quietly optimistic. If the offer was a shocker I'd have expected there to be an immediate response from ASLEF and publication of the offer, rather than silence while it's considered.

My thoughts exactly but then I'm a glass half full kind of guy most of the time

 

[Economist]

I'd have been surprised if any of the unions decided strike during the coronation weekend, I'm a staunch republican but from a PR perspective, I think it would have been very damaging and it would have given the government a lot of ammunition with regards to anti-strike laws.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like 12th and 31st May, 3rd June. Also withdrawal of overtime (I’m not quite clear whether that’s TOC specific or national, so I won’t mention the dates).

Cheers, fortunately none of those appear to mess me up, though one of them will knacker a lot of people doing the Keswick to Barrow walk, sadly.

 

[dk1]

Spoke too soon. Its just been rejected.

 

[newtownmgr]

I'd have been surprised if any of the unions decided strike during the coronation weekend, I'm a staunch republican but from a PR perspective, I think it would have been very damaging and it would have given the government a lot of ammunition with regards to anti-strike laws.

Both rail unions have previously stated that they wouldn’t target the coronation weekend. Personally think it’s about time ASLEF took more action,unfortunately it’s the only way they are going to win this.

 

[Bantamzen]

What exactly do you disagree with? Nothing needs to be put to the members and the mandate for action remains current. That is the simple fact of the matter.

It’s interesting how, although we don’t even know what the offer is yet, people on here looking in from outside the railway industry presume to dictate how ASLEF should respond, and claim to speak for ASLEF members.

The view on the ground is very different: if this offer isn’t significantly better in terms of Ts and Cs, and is just a retread of what went before, most members I know (including myself) would want to see more action taken - there’s a growing perception that ASLEF are being strung along.

Nothing has been previously offered!

Then it should definitely go to the membership. And I speak as someone who was TU rep for many years.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Nothing *needs* to be put to the members. The union can gauge feeling without a formal vote.

I’m not talking about a formal vote. Nowadays, on line is a good way of gauging opinion without having to call branch or depot meetings or just relying on what the reps say.

But, to consult the members, the revised offer has to be a substantial change on what has come before. If it is just tinkering, then it will get nowhere and, presumably, that is what has just happened.

T&C’s are hard won and easily lost and, to many, are more important than the pay rise. So, this will remain a big sticking point if the DfT are still insisting on changing them to the extent previously proposed.

 

[43066]

Being cynical I wonder if they've just strung ASLEF along until they got past the 2 week window before the coronation.

Perhaps. Albeit I think it’s highly unlikely they’d have targeted that, and I *believe* had already stated as much.

Cheers, fortunately none of those appear to mess me up, though one of them will knacker a lot of people doing the Keswick to Barrow walk, sadly.

Indeed. It’s genuinely gutting news, and frankly there’s a strong sense of games being played now, which is making people quite angry.

I’m not talking about a formal vote. Nowadays, on line is a good way of gauging opinion without having to call branch or depot meetings or just relying on what the reps say.

True. Although I have no idea whether they have the infrastructure in place, and they do seem pretty good at gauging the mood. There has been growing frustration at long gaps between meetings with no progress.

But, to consult the members, the revised offer has to be a substantial change on what has come before. If it is just tinkering, then it will get nowhere and, presumably, that is what has just happened.

T&C’s are hard won and easily lost and, to many, are more important than the pay rise. So, this will remain a big sticking point if the DfT are still insisting on changing them to the extent previously proposed.

Indeed - it’s all about the opportunistic and completely unnecessary grab for Ts and Cs. The amount offered is derisory but (personally and based on who I know) I’m confident would be accepted by the majority.

 

[Efini92]

Mr. M. Whelan General Secretary ASLEF
Sent by email.
27th April 2023
Dear Mick,
PAY & REFORMS PROPOSAL
I refer to our meeting yesterday and I am setting out in this letter a pay and reforms proposal.
This proposal seeks to reflect the discussions that have taken place at industry‐wide level since mid‐February between representatives of the passenger train operators (TOCs) and the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineman and Fireman (ASLEF) arising from the dispute on pay between the TOCs & ASLEF.
This proposal seeks to balance a fair pay deal for employees with the need for workforce reforms to help put the industry finances on a sustainable footing for the future, recognising that whilst off peak leisure travel has recovered to above pre‐Covid levels overall passenger revenue has plateaued at circa 80% of pre‐covid levels due to lower demand for peak and business travel.
This proposal seeks to resolve the current disputes that exist between ASLEF and TOCs on pay and the associated cessation of further industrial action in this dispute.
PAY OFFER
The proposal comprises a two‐year pay offer which provides for a 4% increase in year one (including retrospective pay) and a further increase of 4% in year two to be based on the successful outcome of reform discussions.
Year one will apply from the respective 2022 TOC pay anniversary date and year two will apply from the respective 2023 TOC pay anniversary date. The exceptions to this are C2C and South‐ West Railway who will receive the year two increase only from 2023 TOC pay anniversary date to reflect they have both received a 2022 pay increase under previously agreed multi‐year deals.
Annual TOC pay negotiations will resume in 2024 reflecting the respective TOC anniversary dates.
Rail Delivery Group Limited Registered Office, 2nd Floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4HD www.raildeliverygroup.com 020 7841 8000 Registered in England and Wales No. 08176197

YEAR ONE ‐ 2022
Year one will become payable on ASLEF endorsing this proposal through a referendum of its members and subsequent receipt of formal acceptance under the respective TOC collective bargaining arrangements. This proposal includes the industry‐wide reform elements set out below: ‐
o Driver Training Competence Review & Driver Training Complimentary Certificate (Part B) *
o Rolling Stock Procurement*
o Train Driver Career Progression
o New Entrants Driver Salary Progression
o New Improving Attendance Policy
o Rolling Sick Pay Year and New Entrants Sick Pay Qualification Periods o Notice Periods
Each of these elements will be brought forward for discussion in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedures.
* Driver Training Competence Review & Complimentary Certificate and Rolling Stock Procurement elements will continue to have industry‐wide oversight which will include the setting up of an Industry Joint Committee for Rolling Stock Procurement.
YEAR TWO ‐ 2023
Year two will be payable upon successful conclusion of meaningful discussions on reform elements contained within individual TOC proposals which will be held in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedural arrangements.
The scope of these TOC level discussions is to be based on the Bespoke Framework Reform Elements listed below. This will require each TOC to undertake a scoping exercise to determine which elements are appropriate, recognising these will vary by each TOC.
o WorkingArrangementsPrinciples
o Sunday Working (7‐Day Railway) Arrangements
o Diagramming and Rostering Including Leave Arrangements o Spare Turns & Utilisation Arrangements
o Annual Leave Entitlement Arrangements
o NewSMARTTechnologyEquipment
TOCs will bring forward proposals based upon the outcome of the scoping exercise for discussion under the respective collective bargaining procedures. These discussions are on the understanding that progress is concluded in each TOC within an expected three‐month period following any endorsement of this proposal.

I believe the discussions leading up to this proposal have been undertaken in good faith by both parties in order to try and seek a resolution to the current industrial dispute over pay which exists between ASLEF and TOCs. I understand this proposal will be considered by your Executive Committee at the earliest opportunity and you will advise me of the outcome after their due consideration.
Your sincerely,
Steve Montgomery
Chair of Rail Delivery Group (RDG)

 

[EZJ]

Just seen the offer, not surprised it was rejected. All those red lines the RDG said they would remove are back. What a complete waste of time.

 

[VP185]

Mr. M. Whelan General Secretary ASLEF
Sent by email.
27th April 2023
Dear Mick,
PAY & REFORMS PROPOSAL
I refer to our meeting yesterday and I am setting out in this letter a pay and reforms proposal.
This proposal seeks to reflect the discussions that have taken place at industry‐wide level since mid‐February between representatives of the passenger train operators (TOCs) and the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineman and Fireman (ASLEF) arising from the dispute on pay between the TOCs & ASLEF.
This proposal seeks to balance a fair pay deal for employees with the need for workforce reforms to help put the industry finances on a sustainable footing for the future, recognising that whilst off peak leisure travel has recovered to above pre‐Covid levels overall passenger revenue has plateaued at circa 80% of pre‐covid levels due to lower demand for peak and business travel.
This proposal seeks to resolve the current disputes that exist between ASLEF and TOCs on pay and the associated cessation of further industrial action in this dispute.
PAY OFFER
The proposal comprises a two‐year pay offer which provides for a 4% increase in year one (including retrospective pay) and a further increase of 4% in year two to be based on the successful outcome of reform discussions.
Year one will apply from the respective 2022 TOC pay anniversary date and year two will apply from the respective 2023 TOC pay anniversary date. The exceptions to this are C2C and South‐ West Railway who will receive the year two increase only from 2023 TOC pay anniversary date to reflect they have both received a 2022 pay increase under previously agreed multi‐year deals.
Annual TOC pay negotiations will resume in 2024 reflecting the respective TOC anniversary dates.
Rail Delivery Group Limited Registered Office, 2nd Floor, 200 Aldersgate Street, London EC1A 4HD www.raildeliverygroup.com 020 7841 8000 Registered in England and Wales No. 08176197

YEAR ONE ‐ 2022
Year one will become payable on ASLEF endorsing this proposal through a referendum of its members and subsequent receipt of formal acceptance under the respective TOC collective bargaining arrangements. This proposal includes the industry‐wide reform elements set out below: ‐
o Driver Training Competence Review & Driver Training Complimentary Certificate (Part B) *
o Rolling Stock Procurement*
o Train Driver Career Progression
o New Entrants Driver Salary Progression
o New Improving Attendance Policy
o Rolling Sick Pay Year and New Entrants Sick Pay Qualification Periods o Notice Periods
Each of these elements will be brought forward for discussion in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedures.
* Driver Training Competence Review & Complimentary Certificate and Rolling Stock Procurement elements will continue to have industry‐wide oversight which will include the setting up of an Industry Joint Committee for Rolling Stock Procurement.
YEAR TWO ‐ 2023
Year two will be payable upon successful conclusion of meaningful discussions on reform elements contained within individual TOC proposals which will be held in accordance with the respective recognised TOC collective bargaining procedural arrangements.
The scope of these TOC level discussions is to be based on the Bespoke Framework Reform Elements listed below. This will require each TOC to undertake a scoping exercise to determine which elements are appropriate, recognising these will vary by each TOC.
o WorkingArrangementsPrinciples
o Sunday Working (7‐Day Railway) Arrangements
o Diagramming and Rostering Including Leave Arrangements o Spare Turns & Utilisation Arrangements
o Annual Leave Entitlement Arrangements
o NewSMARTTechnologyEquipment
TOCs will bring forward proposals based upon the outcome of the scoping exercise for discussion under the respective collective bargaining procedures. These discussions are on the understanding that progress is concluded in each TOC within an expected three‐month period following any endorsement of this proposal.

I believe the discussions leading up to this proposal have been undertaken in good faith by both parties in order to try and seek a resolution to the current industrial dispute over pay which exists between ASLEF and TOCs. I understand this proposal will be considered by your Executive Committee at the earliest opportunity and you will advise me of the outcome after their due consideration.
Your sincerely,
Steve Montgomery
Chair of Rail Delivery Group (RDG)

Another joke offer by the RDG.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Indeed a complete waste of time.

I suspect 4%+4% element would actually be approved my members based on conversations at my Depot, but fiddling with conditions to the extent they want (even if some don't Impact me) is a no go.

Suspect they'll be a settlement with that amount and conditions left as is, we shall see.

 

[theageofthetra]

Just seen the offer, not surprised it was rejected. All those red lines the RDG said they would remove are back. What a complete waste of time.

How will the overtime ban work in practice?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I think it's time to implement what I've coined "Operation Vatican" in which the DfT, RDG, ASLEF and the RMT are cooped up in a Travelodge and restricted to continental breakfast and bland salads (and denied access to the hotel bar) until a deal is worked out a la the papal elections.

If the deal passes, that's that.

If it doesn't, back to the Travelodge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's time to implement what I've coined "Operation Vatican" in which the RDG, ASLEF and the RMT are cooped up in a Travelodge and restricted to continental breakfast and bland salads (and denied access to the hotel bar) until a deal is worked out a la the papal elections.

If the deal passes, that's that.

If it doesn't, back to the Travelodge.

You'd have to add the DfT too. Presumably, in keeping with the Papal election and the issuance of smoke from the chimney, success would be indicated by them setting fire to the Travelodge, thereby improving it for all future customers?

 

[JonathanH]

I think it's time to implement what I've coined "Operation Vatican" in which the RDG, ASLEF and the RMT are cooped up in a Travelodge and restricted to continental breakfast and bland salads (and denied access to the hotel bar) until a deal is worked out a la the papal elections.

If the deal passes, that's that.

There is no possible offer acceptable to both sides, no longer how long you lock people in a room.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no possible offer acceptable to both sides, no longer how long you lock people in a room.

This is clearly untrue, as the only third option is to close the railway forthwith. It'll take time, but there will be agreement eventually.

 

[JonathanH]

This is clearly untrue, as the only third option is to close the railway forthwith. It'll take time, but there will be agreement eventually.

How is it untrue? One side wants changes to T&Cs, the other finds this unacceptable, probably rightly.

The only way round that is to impose the T&C changes via employment contracts without agreement, or the workers to withdraw labour permanently as you say.

As some say, they could settle the pay at the current offer without the T&C changes, but why would the RDG position move to this?

 

[matthewjohnson]

There is no possible offer acceptable to both sides, no longer how long you lock people in a room.

So what is the solution then? Because clearly permanent strikes and/or no railway isn't an option

 

[Haywain]

03 June, FA Cup final day isn’t it?

Indeed it is. And just after the good news of a 3 o'clock kick-off had been delivered!

 

[JonathanH]

So what is the solution then? Because clearly permanent strikes and/or no railway isn't an option

Periodic strikes and no agreement is the solution being followed at the moment.

 

[VP185]

So what is the solution then? Because clearly permanent strikes and/or no railway isn't an option

Let the individual TOCs thrash out a deal and keep the DfT out of it. Simple

 

[JonathanH]

Let the individual TOCs thrash out a deal and keep the DfT out of it. Simple

That doesn't deliver the apparent objective of increased harmonisation of T&Cs though.