Was I overcharged for an excess?

[Gaelan]

I was (I think) overcharged for an excess a few months ago, and just wanted to double check with you all before I go complaining.

The situation: Back in February, I bought an any permitted route off-peak day return from Leuchars to Edinburgh (with railcard), a ticket with both a morning and evening peak.

I used the outbound portion as normal, but on the way back, I realized I was in the evening peak, so I went to the LNER ticket office at Waverley to get a ticket valid at the peak. The ticket office there charged me £6.60 for an excess to an anytime return. However, that route also has an off-peak return with no evening peak, at a price difference of only £2.45. Assuming I was intending to travel back the same day, the off-peak return would have had the exact same validity at a significantly lower cost.

Is there any reason the LNER ticket office couldn't have sold me a £2.45 excess to the off-peak return, or at least offered it as a possibility?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I would agree you were overcharged. Contact LNER and ask for the difference to be refunded.

 

[yorkie]

I was (I think) overcharged for an excess a few months ago, and just wanted to double check with you all before I go complaining.

The situation: Back in February, I bought an any permitted route off-peak day return from Leuchars to Edinburgh (with railcard), a ticket with both a morning and evening peak.

I used the outbound portion as normal, but on the way back, I realized I was in the evening peak, so I went to the LNER ticket office at Waverley to get a ticket valid at the peak. The ticket office there charged me £6.60 for an excess to an anytime return. However, that route also has an off-peak return with no evening peak, at a price difference of only £2.45. Assuming I was intending to travel back the same day, the off-peak return would have had the exact same validity at a significantly lower cost.

Is there any reason the LNER ticket office couldn't have sold me a £2.45 excess to the off-peak return, or at least offered it as a possibility?

Yes you were overcharged by the ticket office (this is not uncommon for ticket offices, sadly) however if it was back in February, it's probably too late to claim your money back. You could request the staff are given appropriate training though (good luck with that!)

 

[Gaelan]

Thanks both! I wasn't going to ask for a refund (it seems rather petty to ask for £3 back for a transaction in February, and in any case I can't find the original ticket now, only the excess ticket), but I'll certainly lodge a complaint just for the record. In theory, all they need to do is send out an email along the lines of "remember, when selling excesses for ScotRail-priced tickets, check if there's an off-peak with no evening peak you can excess to" to their ticket office staff.

 

[robbeech]

I suspect they don’t do many excesses and as such their natural instinct is to keep the basic ticket the same and just excess to one with less restrictions, so a day return to day return. That said, it’s not your fault so shouldn’t be your problem. It’s poor training so is no excuse and I think it’s certainly worth contacting them to point out their error. Sadly though, if some of the drivel we have seen from customer services recently, specifically delay repay stuff is anything to go by I wouldn’t be holding my breath.

 

[Gaelan]

I suspect they don’t do many excesses and as such their natural instinct is to keep the basic ticket the same and just excess to one with less restrictions, so a day return to day return.

They didn’t, though - both the anytime return (which they charged me for) and the off-peak return (which they should have) are open returns.

 

[yorkie]

They didn’t, though - both the anytime return (which they charged me for) and the off-peak return (which they should have) are open returns.

You misunderstood; the original was a Day return but you wanted an excess to a period return (valid for a calendar month).

The term "open return" has different interpretations.

 

[Gaelan]

You misunderstood; the original was a Day return but you wanted an excess to a period return (valid for a calendar month).

The term "open return" has different interpretations.

Ah oops, period return. But my point is that I *did* get an excess to a period return (there’s no anytime day return on this route), but there’s another cheaper period return I could’ve been excessed to.

 

[yorkie]

Ah oops, period return. But my point is that I *did* get an excess to a period return (there’s no anytime day return on this route), but there’s another cheaper period return I could’ve been excessed to.

Ah, in that case @robbeech misunderstood and it makes the mistake all the more curious; the situation @robbeech described, while not an excuse per se, is a reason why you will sometimes end up with some overcharging occuring.

A ticket office clerk should really know that an off peak return can't have evening peak restrictions, if it's a former Saver (SVR) as that would be unlawful under fares regulation (outside the London area) and if you don't know, you check! Very odd behaviour, but not at all inconsistent with the typical experiences at ticket offices these days, I am sad to say.

 

[robbeech]

Ah, in that case @robbeech misunderstood and it makes the mistake all the more curious; the situation @robbeech described, while not an excuse per se, is a reason why you will sometimes end up with some overcharging occuring.

A ticket office clerk should really know that an off peak return can't have evening peak restrictions, if it's a former Saver (SVR) as that would be unlawful under fares regulation (outside the London area) and if you don't know, you check! Very odd behaviour, but not at all inconsistent with the typical experiences at ticket offices these days, I am sad to say.

Indeed I thought they had been excessed to an anytime DAY return.

There are several flows with both off peak and anytime day returns, and off peak and anytime (period) returns where by there is a price overlap making the off peak (period) return slightly cheaper than the anytime day return.

Either way this doesn’t change the fact that you were definitely overcharged, Infact you could argue it’s worse in a way although you could maybe understand someone who hasn’t received sufficient training might look at an off peak ticket and assume that they need an anytime, where there is only 1 available. It’s not a justifiable excuse and I still suggest you write to them to notify them of this (it’s unlikely you’ll be refunded but you’d be doing a good deed for other passengers).

It would be nice to think that some staff that frequent this forum from the relevant operator would have already sent an internal message about this. I’d like to think that any reasonable operator and its staff would encourage this customer focussed attitude.

 

[Gaelan]

Here’s the email I sent:

Hello,

On February 7, I made a day trip from Leuchars to Edinburgh. On the way to Edinburgh, I purchased an Off-Peak Day Return for £12.65 (all tickets mentioned in this email are 16-25 Railcard on any permitted route). This ticket has both morning and evening peak restrictions.

On the way back, I realized I was within the evening peak, so I popped into the (LNER-run) ticket office at Edinburgh Waverley. The person there sold me a £6.60 excess to the £19.25 Anytime Return.

While that was a valid ticket, it wasn’t the cheapest option. On this route, there is also a £15.10 Off-Peak Return, which has a morning peak but no evening peak. This would have been equally valid for the journey I wanted to make, and cost me only an extra £2.45 - I was overcharged by £4.15.

(Unfortunately I don’t remember the exact wording of my request at the ticket office - I think I just asked for any ticket that would let me take a peak service, but even if I specifically said “anytime”, it would have been good customer service to mention that the Off-Peak Return almost certainly did what I wanted for cheaper.)

I’m not particularly fussed about getting a refund - it’s not, at the end of the day, a huge amount of money - but please remind your staff at Waverley to check for less-expensive off-peak fares, not just anytimes, when selling excesses, as such scenarios are fairly common on ScotRail-priced routes.

In case they’re helpful, I’ve attached images of the excess and the accompanying receipt. Unfortunately I don’t seem to have kept a hold of the original Off-Peak Day Return ticket.

Thanks!

 

[celdor]

"On the way to Edinburgh, I purchased an Off-Peak Day Return for £12.65 "

You are saying you bought your ticket on the train for the journey you were on.?

If correct then you are telling them you have committed the offence of boarding a train
without a ticket? Could be repercussions!

 

[Watershed]

"On the way to Edinburgh, I purchased an Off-Peak Day Return for £12.65 "

You are saying you bought your ticket on the train for the journey you were on.?

If correct then you are telling them you have committed the offence of boarding a train
without a ticket? Could be repercussions!

Not in Scotland. Whilst it's technically still an offence, it can't be prosecuted by the TOC, only by the Procurator Fiscal - who (unlike the TOCs) has no interest in prosecutions for such minor offences.

 

[Gaelan]

"On the way to Edinburgh, I purchased an Off-Peak Day Return for £12.65 "

You are saying you bought your ticket on the train for the journey you were on.?

If correct then you are telling them you have committed the offence of boarding a train
without a ticket? Could be repercussions!

“On the way” doesn’t necessarily mean on the train - I believe I bought the ticket on the bus to the station and collected it from the station as a TOD ticket. (Curse ScotRail and their unwillingness to accept the eTickets everyone else handles with no problem - but I digress)

 

[celdor]

Gaelan said:
(Curse ScotRail and their unwillingness to accept the eTickets everyone else handles with no problem - but I digress)

Reading up on the Scotrail site looks like they are moving towards having a ticket before boarding and
is this "mticket " the same as an eticket? and if so why didnt they just call it an eticket?
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/smart-tickets/mtickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

Gaelan said:
(Curse ScotRail and their unwillingness to accept the eTickets everyone else handles with no problem - but I digress)

Reading up on the Scotrail site looks like they are moving towards having a ticket before boarding and
is this "mticket " the same as an eticket? and if so why didnt they just call it an eticket?
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/smart-tickets/mtickets

M-tickets are an old fashioned technology where the ticket is tied to a specific mobile device. I really can't understand why ScotRail persist with this dated, awkward and problematic technology.

 

[Krokodil]

M-tickets are an old fashioned technology where the ticket is tied to a specific mobile device. I really can't understand why ScotRail persist with this dated, awkward and problematic technology.

They're far less vulnerable to fraud than eTickets are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're far less vulnerable to fraud than eTickets are.

At the expense of being massively passenger unfriendly.

They have no place on today's railway.

 

[Gaelan]

They're far less vulnerable to fraud than eTickets are.

In principle yes, but the risk seems quite low? Assuming the vast majority of eTickets are scanned (and in my experience they are on ScotRail - I think every ScotRail journey I've been on has been gated, ticket-checked or most often both), ticket reuse should be detected anyway.

And of course the "restricting to one device" is to some degree just security theatre, especially since (according to ScotRail's website) mTickets work offline - so there'd be nothing stopping you from creating a lookalike ScotRail app with none of the restrictions. That being said, there is more effort (even if it's just finding+using such an app made by someone else) involved than just screenshooting a ticket, so I'm not discounting it completely.

 

[Watershed]

They're far less vulnerable to fraud than eTickets are.

And yet just every other operator has got onboard with eTickets. ScotRail will have eTickets soon enough; they've just taken far too long to come round to accepting the inevitable.

 

[Krokodil]

At the expense of being massively passenger unfriendly.

They have no place on today's railway.

How are they "passenger unfriendly". I'm pretty sure that the TfW app has a "release ticket from device" function which allows you to use different devices, just not at the same time.

I never have to stand around waiting for a passenger using the TfW app to show me their ticket. Someone who has ordered through Trainline on the other hand might spend five minutes looking through emails ("no, that one is the confirmation, there will be a separate one with your tickets"), opening different PDFs in turn etc.

Or they'll have used the TL app, but the ticket will have disappeared from "My Tickets" and they've no idea why, they "definitely bought an open return". Except they didn't, they selected "Open Return when they searched but the app still brings up all options, including Day Returns, and splits that involve Day Returns for part of the journey. They blindly select this, ignoring the "return same day", "Northern only", and "train must call at X" small print (after all, they did go through the "open return" menu) and find themselves chinged for a single ticket.

 

[Gaelan]

And a response from LNER:

I am sorry to hear of your recent experience and thank you for bringing it to my attention. I note your comments regarding an excess ticket being sold to you between Edinburgh and Leuchars and this not necessarily being the cheapest option. It is important that we provide the correct information to our customers at all times and it is disappointing that this has not happened on this occasion. Your comments have been recorded as part of the ongoing review into the customer service we offer. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Bonus points for taking a wild guess at a prefix when addressing me and getting it wrong, but oh well.