£85m train link between Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations approved

[gordonthemoron]

will this make the Windsor link redundant? If so, will they reintroduce the service from Stalybridge to Stockport

 

[radamfi]

will this make the Windsor link redundant?

No, because the Windsor Link links Deansgate to Salford Crescent.

 

[gordonthemoron]

so what's the name of the curve that links the Stalybridge/Stockport line with the Manchester/Glossop line which TPE currently uses?

 

[Bomber]

Some Leeds and the Nort East to Manchester Airport services could be speeded up a lot by using the Guide Bridge, Denton line and not going into Picc.
I think the link being referred to is the go ahead for the Ordsall - Castlefield Curve. Replace the Blind Lane and Ashton Old Road spans and Victoria and Piccadilly connected.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Can we have link to a map, please ? So I can see where the new Picc->Vic cord will be built.

Once I've browsed the map, I can join in the excitement, too !

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think it's very good news, im nto sure 85 million is good, as in not questioning it im asking is that good value?
Sounds good but wont this overload p 13/14 even more than currently? or is there other aspects of northern hub which cover this problem?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can we have link to a map, please ? So I can see where the new Picc->Vic cord will be built.

Once I've browsed the map, I can join in the excitement, too !

Try this:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/postcode/m3 4nb

I think the new link will run north from the existing Castlefield-Ordsall Lane curve near Potato Wharf across Water St and the River Irwell to join the approach to Victoria around Trinity Way. I've no idea if it is going to be grade-separated from the existing routes in any way. Everything is on viaducts and is sharply curved, so speeds will be low and the cost will he high.

I haven't seen a proper map from Network Rail, as I'm sure they were keeping their options open. It should mean they can do the construction work in parallel with the electrification and save us all a lot of disruption.

Richard

 

[Ivo]

Can we have link to a map, please ? So I can see where the new Picc->Vic cord will be built.

Once I've browsed the map, I can join in the excitement, too !

Wow, Streetmap has changed a lot!

The entire line is roughly the black line I have drawn below, using the not-so-reliable Google Maps (and the oh-so-reliable MS Paint).

Is this likely to cause further congestion on what is already the busiest pair platforms outside of London (and Merseyrail)?

 

[PhilipW]

Can we have link to a map, please ? So I can see where the new Picc->Vic cord will be built.

Once I've browsed the map, I can join in the excitement, too !

Well, I don't have access to a map but I'll try and describe.


From the through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly the line to Chat Moss / Liverpool (or branch off to Salford Crescent / Bolton) heads west through Oxford Road then Deansgate. Just after Deansgate the new chord will start on the right and head towards Victoria. Within 1/2 mile it will join the line from Liverpool to Victoria.

This will make a triangular junction.
South side - Piccadilly to Chat Moss (exists)
North West side - Chat Moss to Victoria (exists)
North East - Victoria to Deansgate/Piccadilly (new)

I hope this helps

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some Leeds and the Nort East to Manchester Airport services could be speeded up a lot by using the Guide Bridge, Denton line and not going into Picc.

Can't really see a principal station (i.e. Manchester Piccadilly) being omitted as a calling point on a cross-Pennine service.

Any how exactly would a train routed through Guide Bridge and Denton arrive at Manchester Airport?

 

[Statto]

Wow, Streetmap has changed a lot! The entire line is roughly the black line I have drawn below.

Is this likely to cause further congestion on what is already the busiest pair platforms outside of London (and Merseyrail)?

And another thing, how long will it take from Vic to Picc, even allowing for stop at Ox Rd[15 min maybe?]?

I think it'd still be quicker for TPE as they are now from Yorkshire to Man Apt, even allowing for reversing at Picc. the main benifit will be passengers going from Rochdale or on the Halifax line to South Manchester.

 

[PhilipW]

It is puzzling as to why just 400-600 yards of new track will cost £85 million.

Gold plated rivets in the track ?

I would like to for that money that the two new junctions would be grade separated. Somehow I doubt it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

two new platforms at Manchester Picadilly? One new platform at Manchester Airport? Tarting up Victoria?

 

[WatcherZero]

two new platforms at Manchester Picadilly? One new platform at Manchester Airport? Tarting up Victoria?

Rest of the Hub we will have to wait until the next five year Network Rail funding period, this was the Dft stepping in to directly fund a small part of the overall scheme.

Wow, Streetmap has changed a lot!

The entire line is roughly the black line I have drawn below, using the not-so-reliable Google Maps (and the oh-so-reliable MS Paint).

Is this likely to cause further congestion on what is already the busiest pair platforms outside of London (and Merseyrail)?

Its actually further east than the line you drew on the map, passing through the edge of MOSI and the vacant Granada studios lot with its own bridge over the canal.

 

[Statto]

two new platforms at Manchester Picadilly? One new platform at Manchester Airport? Tarting up Victoria?

I don't think they'll have the space for extra platforms at Picc, unless they rebuild the disused Mayfield, maybe extra platforms at Man Apt?

 

[WatcherZero]

The plan is to build two new through platforms right next to 13 & 14. Mayfield was/is becoming a government office campus development. Still no word on the final HS2 station but if its not underground it would be at a whole new site somewhere on the edge of the city centre.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

It is puzzling as to why just 400-600 yards of new track will cost £85 million.

I am no civil engineer but it looks to me to be a very tricky situation. The new chord needs to cross a dual carriageway (Trinity Way) at a very acute angle and, almost immediately, the River Irwell while avoiding the Grade 1 listed Liverpool Road Station buildings, added to which, as an earlier poster commented, the whole thing will be on a viaduct.

 

[PhilipW]

I am no civil engineer but it looks to me to be a very tricky situation. The new chord needs to cross a dual carriageway (Trinity Way) at a very acute angle and, almost immediately, the River Irwell while avoiding the Grade 1 listed Liverpool Road Station buildings, added to which, as an earlier poster commented, the whole thing will be on a viaduct.

Thanks for that. If the route is mainly on a viaduct that should, in theory, make it easier (and less costly) for the South-North line to be grade separated at either end. I hope it is.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Thanks for that. If the route is mainly on a viaduct that should, in theory, make it easier (and less costly) for the South-North line to be grade separated at either end. I hope it is.

I have stood at the end of the museum site and would guess that if there is going to be a curve that makes the minimum necessary disruption to the museum it will be quite tight and to make it grade separated would involve some running above a road.

85 million still seems a lot for it, but not too much a lot if you see what I mean.

 

[142094]

No word on what will happen to the former Mayfield station? Surely this could be rbought back into use for certain services and linked to Piccadilly by a bridge?

 

[JohnCarlson]

The plan is to build two new through platforms right next to 13 & 14. Mayfield was/is becoming a government office campus development. Still no word on the final HS2 station but if its not underground it would be at a whole new site somewhere on the edge of the city centre.

The amount of construction above a road that would involve would seem to be much more than just reopening Mayfield.

Not sure if there is still a demand for more government offices given the current financial situation.
:-?
John

 

[142094]

No word on what will happen to the former Mayfield station? Surely this could be rbought back into use for certain services and linked to Piccadilly by a bridge?

Just realised someone has been talking about it :roll:

So is this office development actually going ahead for the site?

 

[WatcherZero]

Still in the air but not officially cancelled. The new platforms would have to be built next to 13&14 and be above the road because they need through platforms, they already have plenty of east facing bays. For the same reason Mayfield has been ruled out as the site for the HS2 station as its oriented east-west and they need a site oriented north-south.

 

[142094]

Still in the air but not officially cancelled. The new platforms would have to be built next to 13&14 and be above the road because they need through platforms, they already have plenty of east facing bays. For the same reason Mayfield has been ruled out as the site for the HS2 station as its oriented east-west and they need a site oriented north-south.

Could be useful to seperate some of the services that come from the south and not from the east, would mean that trains such as ATW and Virgin wouldn't have to cross over the through platform lines.

As you say the best thing would be to sling another couple of platforms across the viaduct, which is the same as what apparently was supposed to be happening at Leeds.

 

[Welshman]

The only advantages I can see to the new curve is that it will allow through Calder Valley/Rochdale trains to Manchester south side and the Airport, and avoid the need for reversal at Salford Crescent for TPE when they are diverted via the Calder Valley.

So we're talking about only 3 trains per hour, which is just as well, for without any extra capacity on the Deansgate/Piccadilly link, I doubt very many more trains could be funnelled through that two-line section. Already, on several occasions, I have been held on an ATW service from North Wales at Castlefield Junction awaiting a path into Oxford Rd, and to increase capacity from there to Piccadilly would be very costly, as it is on a viaduct for most of the way.

I suspect there may also be capacity restraints through Manchester Victoria for any more services from the Rochdale direction. So is a through service from Rochdale to Piccadilly and the Airport really worth £85m?

 

[WatcherZero]

Liverpool-Leeds trains would also run into Victoria via Chat Moss then reverse out and follow the loop using Pics through platforms rather than going the long way round and into Piccadilly bays from the East before reversing out. Of course they need the west facing bays at Victoria that are also part of the Hub project. This is the advertised 30 minute time saving service.

 

[ukrob]

I don't understand how it can possibly be a 30 minute saving when it is all hypothetical, because the trains Liverpool - Leeds would only run like that AFTER the project is completed!

 

[trickyvegas]

I'm wondering if at the same time it would be worth restoring the old triangular junction at Ardwick, the land still appears to be clear and this would allow trains from the bays at Piccadilly to loop west via Victoria, taking some pressure off the Oxford Road corridor or connect east to towards Rochdale and the Calder Valley. There is also the potential of dangling the carrot of a Manchester City rail halt in return for a contribution towards the scheme.

 

[JohnCarlson]

The only advantages I can see to the new curve is that it will allow through Calder Valley/Rochdale trains to Manchester south side and the Airport, and avoid the need for reversal at Salford Crescent for TPE when they are diverted via the Calder Valley.

So we're talking about only 3 trains per hour, which is just as well, for without any extra capacity on the Deansgate/Piccadilly link, I doubt very many more trains could be funnelled through that two-line section. Already, on several occasions, I have been held on an ATW service from North Wales at Castlefield Junction awaiting a path into Oxford Rd, and to increase capacity from there to Piccadilly would be very costly, as it is on a viaduct for most of the way.

I suspect there may also be capacity restraints through Manchester Victoria for any more services from the Rochdale direction. So is a through service from Rochdale to Piccadilly and the Airport really worth £85m?

I think they plan much more than that. There are plans to increase the number of Leeds Manchester TPEs to 6 per hour. They would use this new track to run through Victoria then Piccadilly then on to the airport for example.

I have seen some plans somewhere for the manchester Hub and this curve is just the start.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could be useful to seperate some of the services that come from the south and not from the east, would mean that trains such as ATW and Virgin wouldn't have to cross over the through platform lines.

As you say the best thing would be to sling another couple of platforms across the viaduct, which is the same as what apparently was supposed to be happening at Leeds.

I would guess Mayfield is far to small for HS2.

 

[Nym]

Mayfeild on it's own is too small yes, but the whole mayfeild campus between the A6, A635, and piccadilly throught is plenty big enough, and all old industrial land, cheap to buy up, and gentle enough to viaduct the HS lines out toward longsight where they could tunnel out toward Manc Airport.

And the signalling headways on the Catslefeild Viaduct are currently very bad, re-signalling would be included in the 'northern hub' project, ultimatly allowing anything upto 16 - 20tph over the viaduct, not to sure how much could stop at Deansgate, but 4 tracking through there is always an option by building some platforms over the road, I think the CLC lines will be suffering and downgraded to 1tph express and 2tph stopper ONLY after the project, so that section of the junction is easyer to deal with.

Also the old chat moss route into Victoria is formally 4 track and still has space, the ordstall curve could also see this re-instated to 4 track with possible grade seperation further up, so it's not all bad news.

They'll need to work a miracle at Victoria though, and for this to work, they'll either have to be plenty of W facing bays or NO services terminating from the west, ie. all pushed through to Rochdale or Stalybridge.

I'd just hope that not all TPE services will run through to Vic, with some still into Pic, to terminate, eg, Hull terminators into picc, as to give passengers a choice of station, possibly 4tph vic (2 airport & 2 liverpool) and 2tph pic, with link trains into Stalybridge?