Railway competition

[FlyingPotato]

Hi all,

What train operator / routes do you thing need competition on. The competition could be anything railway related, from a low cost operator or another standard TOC. The trains don't need to serve the same line, they just need to compete with journeys from A to B.
My suggestion would be the London Manchester route / market

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Although I think competition is a good thing in the general sense, I actually think on the railways (in the main) that working together a la BR is better. Otherwise way too much fragmentation.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Although I think competition is a good thing in the general sense, I actually think on the railways (in the main) that working together a la BR is better. Otherwise way too much fragmentation.

That is fair, I would like something like BR to come back but if they did, I'd still want private operators to compete with the government on certain routes, its better for the consumer and it worked in Italy with Italo.

But that probably won't happen, but we can all dream

 

[zwk500]

That is fair, I would like something like BR to come back but if they did, I'd still want private operators to compete with the government on certain routes, its better for the consumer and it worked in Italy with Italo.

But that probably won't happen, but we can all dream

It happens on the ECML to be fair.

London-Manchester already has stiff competition, but from the air. LNR compete reasonably well against Avanti on certain markets, and have been quite effective at market segmentation. Market segmentation is a strategy I'd like to see pursued on some of the XC routes, helping take a bit of pressure off the Voyagers for people prepared to put up with a few more stops and a slightly lower top speed, however capacity issues make it unlikely and it's difficult to see which TOC they would best fall under.

 

[Bartsimho]

I've thought the more European system that they have to have now of at least some private competition would work best.

A government operator which benefits from economies of scale and joined up planning while having Private Operators can give better customer service and an overall better product.

This is also what I think the original grouping had as while the same route wasn't overlapped certain service types depending on which company ended up where. They also had the remit to develop transport around the railways for connections which a private company could do now (A national operator could as well but that would also be nationalised bus routes).

Also when talking about who is accountable Private competition to a national operator can hold them accountable more than asking elected officials to pull their finger out.

Edit: To add a bit have Great British Railways with 3 divisions: Passenger, Freight and Infrastructure with Private Operators needing to pay a fee to the Infrastructure division for use of tracks, signallers and stations to help fund it as well

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I had forgotten that London - Manchester et al have stiff competition from air ( probably coaches too?)

 

[FlyingPotato]

With the air competition, this will likely change due to the general push to reduce carbon.
The London Manchester air corridor is also more for those connecting to other flights not for domestic trips between London and Manchester

 

[zwk500]

I've thought the more European system that they have to have now of at least some private competition would work best.

Worth pointing out the EU have copied the UK system.

I had forgotten that London - Manchester et al have stiff competition from air ( probably coaches too?)

Coaches are there but they are aiming at a largely different market segment (Where price is 90% of the consideration). NatEx probably compete slightly more than Megabus.

With the air competition, this will likely change due to the general push to reduce carbon.
The London Manchester air corridor is also more for those connecting to other flights not for domestic trips between London and Manchester

So far the signs are that the government are going to do sweet naff all about domestic aviation, and even less for connecting flights. And passengers flying from Manchester for onward connections out of Heathrow are still competing against the train, because you could easily choose to travel to Heathrow in time for your onward flight by train. Indeed, HS2 were looking at a Heathrow direct connection for just such a market (since Superseded by the OOX connection into Elizabeth Line trains).

 

[Gaelan]

The London Manchester air corridor is also more for those connecting to other flights not for domestic trips between London and Manchester

I wonder if anything could be done to improve railway connections from the WCML to Heathrow? I've done something similar on the ECML a few times (Scotland -> Kings Cross -> Heathrow via Piccadilly Line) and found it more pleasant than a domestic flight, but I imagine it's a harder sell when you're coming into Euston and need a cross-london Tube journey to an EL/Piccadilly station before you can proceed to Heathrow.

 

[PTR 444]

I wonder if anything could be done to improve railway connections from the WCML to Heathrow?

Perhaps Willesden Junction could be rebuilt to allow intercity and regional trains to stop there, then a moving walkway link can be built to connect it with OOC for the Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I wonder if anything could be done to improve railway connections from the WCML to Heathrow? I've done something similar on the ECML a few times (Scotland -> Kings Cross -> Heathrow via Piccadilly Line) and found it more pleasant than a domestic flight, but I imagine it's a harder sell when you're coming into Euston and need a cross-london Tube journey to an EL/Piccadilly station before you can proceed to Heathrow.

Unless you ran like a stopper from Milton Keynes to Hayes and Harlington as I think there is a possible track connection from the WCML to the GWML,
But it would be hard to run trains to Heathrow given how trains work there, it's now like Gatwick or Manchester airport where it's easy to do so

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if anything could be done to improve railway connections from the WCML to Heathrow? I've done something similar on the ECML a few times (Scotland -> Kings Cross -> Heathrow via Piccadilly Line) and found it more pleasant than a domestic flight, but I imagine it's a harder sell when you're coming into Euston and need a cross-london Tube journey to an EL/Piccadilly station before you can proceed to Heathrow.

Hs2 will help.

 

[Gaelan]

Hs2 will help.

Ah yes, I suppose that'll probably end up with a direct (and fairly fast) Manchester Piccadilly-Old Oak Common service, which would make Heathrow a lot more enticing.

 

[Bartsimho]

Worth pointing out the EU have copied the UK system.

Yeah but due to the underlying nature of the rail systems and previous operations I think it is superior to our current system with a National Operator and the Private Operators (although I'm unsure if these are franchised routes or truly Open-Access in terms of they can apply to run any service they want to)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So far the signs are that the government are going to do sweet naff all about domestic aviation, and even less for connecting flights.

Do you think it will be massively different if there was a change in government?

 

[zwk500]

Do you think it will be massively different if there was a change in government?

I don't think it will be any different, because the political reasons for acting or not won't really have changed.

 

[yorksrob]

It happens on the ECML to be fair.

London-Manchester already has stiff competition, but from the air. LNR compete reasonably well against Avanti on certain markets, and have been quite effective at market segmentation. Market segmentation is a strategy I'd like to see pursued on some of the XC routes, helping take a bit of pressure off the Voyagers for people prepared to put up with a few more stops and a slightly lower top speed, however capacity issues make it unlikely and it's difficult to see which TOC they would best fall under.

It does, but they're all based on the same marketing model.

I would prefer something like LNWR on the WCML where one has the option of IC advance purchase or cheap walk on fares on a budget type operation to Yorkshire.

 

[zwk500]

It does, but they're all based on the same marketing model.

I would prefer something like LNWR on the WCML where one has the option of IC advance purchase or cheap walk on fares on a budget type operation to Yorkshire.

The issue on the ECML is that the population density dramatically drops off between Peterborough and Doncaster. On the WCML LNWR can run commuter-type trains all the way up to Crewe and Liverpool because they serve sizeable towns in the Trent valley and allow Avanti to focus on the high-speed stuff.
To get a LNR-type competitor on the ECML means handing the York terminators, Lincoln and probably Leeds/Hull services to a different operator with Commuter-type stock (the spare electrostars everybody wibbles about? ), which would hardly be popular as although the IET's aren't as nice as IC125 or IC225 sets, they're still decent trains. It would also be operationally less efficient

 

[yorksrob]

The issue on the ECML is that the population density dramatically drops off between Peterborough and Doncaster. On the WCML LNWR can run commuter-type trains all the way up to Crewe and Liverpool because they serve sizeable towns in the Trent valley and allow Avanti to focus on the high-speed stuff.
To get a LNR-type competitor on the ECML means handing the York terminators, Lincoln and probably Leeds/Hull services to a different operator with Commuter-type stock (the spare electrostars everybody wibbles about? ), which would hardly be popular as although the IET's aren't as nice as IC125 or IC225 sets, they're still decent trains. It would also be operationally less efficient

You could extend one Thameslink all the way to Doncaster. You might need to loop ot a couple of times to let the fast trains pass, but that would help with market segmentation.

 

[FlyingPotato]

You could extend one Thameslink all the way to Doncaster. You might need to loop ot a couple of times to let the fast trains pass, but that would help with market segmentation.

Are we talking the trains coming up from Brighton? As that's a long way on a 700

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2023 ==

You've also already sort of got the LNWR on the East coast in the form of the York stopper, you just need to make it stop a bit more after Doncaster and you're good

 

[yorksrob]

Are we talking the trains coming up from Brighton? As that's a long way on a 700

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2023 ==

You've also already sort of got the LNWR on the East coast in the form of the York stopper, you just need to make it stop a bit more after Doncaster and you're good

Yes, that would be a long way, but it probably wouldn't be much longer than some coach trips.

The problem with the York stopper is that it doesn't have the cheap walk-on fares !

 

[zwk500]

Yes, that would be a long way, but it probably wouldn't be much longer than some coach trips.

It'd be a ridiculously long way on a 100mph unit, you need a 387 for that.

The problem with the York stopper is that it doesn't have the cheap walk-on fares !

You could always introduce the cheaper fares without needing to change the trains.

The simple truth is that there aren't enough people in Grantham and Newark to pick up on the way to London. So you'd need to do a Trent Valley type job and 4 track through while reopening local stations to make a regional commuter service viable. Costly, but could be worth it given the wacked out housing market if you massively expand Lincolnshire towns.

 

[Bald Rick]

London-Manchester already has stiff competition, but from the air.

Not really. The London - Manchester air market is almost entirely people changing planes at Heathrow, or those with an origin and/or destination at or very near to either Heathrow or Ringway. The number of people flying the route is roughly the same as would fill one return Pendolino a day.

The competition for London-Manchester is the M1/M6. As you can see in the few hours before any given Man U home fixture

 

[FlyingPotato]

Yes, that would be a long way, but it probably wouldn't be much longer than some coach trips.

The problem with the York stopper is that it doesn't have the cheap walk-on fares !

As it's an intercity styled route that's a bit hard to do, but yes it should be the cheapest option

Not really. The London - Manchester air market is almost entirely people changing planes at Heathrow, or those with an origin and/or destination at or very near to either Heathrow or Ringway. The number of people flying the route is roughly the same as would fill one return Pendolino a day.

The competition for London-Manchester is the M1/M6. As you can see in the few hours behome fixture

That's why I think you need another train operator running London to Manchester,
One idea I had was a low cost french style which went to Manchester air or victoria instead of picadilly. Most big cities have more than one toc running between them and London apart from Manchester, Avanti holds the monopoly there so they are the price makers, a new TOC or existing one could reduce prices and help relieve road capacity

 

[Bartsimho]

That's why I think you need another train operator running London to Manchester,
One idea I had was a low cost french style which went to Manchester air or victoria instead of picadilly. Most big cities have more than one toc running between them and London apart from Manchester, Avanti holds the monopoly there so they are the price makers, a new TOC or existing one could reduce prices and help relieve road capacity

What Route? WCML to Newton-Le-Willows instead of Air and Stockport?
It would be slower but avoids the Castlefield Corridor and offers a Warrington-Victoria connection

 

[FlyingPotato]

What Route? WCML to Newton-Le-Willows instead of Air and Stockport?
It would be slower but avoids the Castlefield Corridor and offers a Warrington-Victoria connection

If going to Victoria then Newton, you could probably get to Victoria in a similar time to the current picadilly run, around 2h20 minutes at an estimate or less, and in theory it could go further

If going to air, through Crewe then terminate at air (but that's only for low cost)

Either way, it might help Avanti lower their prices

 

[zwk500]

Most big cities have more than one toc running between them and London apart from Manchester,

Really?
Leeds, York, Lincoln, Durham, Newcastle: LNER only
Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester: EMR only
Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Worcester, Plymouth, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea: GWR Only
Manchester, Stoke, Chester, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle: Avanti Only

Hull, Bradford, Doncaster, Wakefield: GC + LNER
Coventry, Birmingham, Wolves, Stafford, Liverpool: Avanti + LNR.
Exeter, Yeovil, Reading: GWR + SWR
Edinburgh, Glasgow: LNER + Avanti

OK my selection is rather random but they're by and large the larges settlements for each TOC. Any I've got wrong or missed?

 

[CBlue]

Really?
Leeds, York, Lincoln, Durham, Newcastle: LNER only
Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester: EMR only
Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Worcester, Plymouth, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea: GWR Only
Manchester, Stoke, Chester, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle: Avanti Only

Hull, Bradford, Doncaster, Wakefield: GC + LNER
Coventry, Birmingham, Wolves, Stafford, Liverpool: Avanti + LNR.
Exeter, Yeovil, Reading: GWR + SWR
Edinburgh, Glasgow: LNER + Avanti

OK my selection is rather random but they're by and large the larges settlements for each TOC. Any I've got wrong or missed?

I think we could chuck Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmsford in there too. Not necessarily huge places but it's only Greater Anglia services linking them with London.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Really?
Leeds, York, Lincoln, Durham, Newcastle: LNER only
Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester: EMR only
Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Cheltenham, Worcester, Plymouth, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea: GWR Only
Manchester, Stoke, Chester, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle: Avanti Only

Hull, Bradford, Doncaster, Wakefield: GC + LNER
Coventry, Birmingham, Wolves, Stafford, Liverpool: Avanti + LNR.
Exeter, Yeovil, Reading: GWR + SWR
Edinburgh, Glasgow: LNER + Avanti

OK my selection is rather random but they're by and large the larges settlements for each TOC. Any I've got wrong or missed?

Newcastle, Lumo
York, Grand central
Lincoln gets a morning EMR train to London
Bristol, and the Welsh ones are getting grand Union
Same goes for Preston and Carlisle
Believe me, I want more train operators for competition
In my mind I have many ideas, but Manchester to me seems like the most sensible next option
I also don't think some of those warrant a few extra trains to London, I'd love an extra train or to Lancaster to help me get home but that won't happen

Also you missed Bournemouth

 

[zwk500]

Newcastle, Lumo
York, Grand central
Lincoln gets a morning EMR train to London

These three fair enough

Bristol, and the Welsh ones are getting grand Union
Same goes for Preston and Carlisle

Is Grand Union still happening? They've been given rights before, excuse me if I don't hold my breath for trains to actually run.

Also you missed Bournemouth

Bournemouth is served by SWR only to London.