Not-very-happy situation at Smallbrook Junction

[bramling]

a recent visitor to the IoW steam railway and user of Smallbrook junction here - no issues with the connection even if it was only 5 minutes. We visited on the busiest timetable colour which may help but we had no issues at all. None.

We got the bus to Wooton, bought a single to Smallbrook, alighted at Havenstreet for a cup of tea and an ice cream and got the last train to the junction. No issues. I also don't recognise this " experience" problem many seem to be reporting. What does that even mean?

I’ve just found the place to be unwelcoming on all the occasions we’ve visited. Not *massively* so, just somewhat abrasive compared to what one might expect. The pre-booking system was causing problems with groups being shared a compartment whilst other compartments were running empty, which in particular was causing issues with people finding themselves in a compartment with dogs, and which wasn’t resolved particularly politely by the staff.

For our part on one journey we ended up in with a group of excruciatingly irritating old people - not really what one expects at the prices charges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve just found the place to be unwelcoming on all the occasions we’ve visited. Not *massively* so, just somewhat abrasive compared to what one might expect. The pre-booking system was causing problems with groups being shared a compartment whilst other compartments were running empty, which in particular was causing issues with people finding themselves in a compartment with dogs, and which wasn’t resolved particularly politely by the staff.

For our part on one journey we ended up in with a group of excruciatingly irritating old people - not really what one expects at the prices charges.

Sounds like a railway which is run as a big train set with passengers a nuisance. Which does happen in preservation, sadly, and were it not on the Isle of Wight which provides a level of captive market it'd probably mean it's likely to be one that fails first

 

[Meerkat]

I maybe misunderstanding but is the problem that the steam railway can't leave people on the Smallbrook platform but are unwilling to get their last train there ten minutes earlier, nor hold the return steam trip until the next electric service has stopped (or not) such that they could sweep anybody left behind back onto the steam train?

 

[richw]

I maybe misunderstanding but is the problem that the steam railway can't leave people on the Smallbrook platform but are unwilling to get their last train there ten minutes earlier, nor hold the return steam trip until the next electric service has stopped (or not) such that they could sweep anybody left behind back onto the steam train?

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here

 

[bramling]

Sounds like a railway which is run as a big train set with passengers a nuisance. Which does happen in preservation, sadly, and were it not on the Isle of Wight which provides a level of captive market it'd probably mean it's likely to be one that fails first

Yes I think the key there is captive market. People will come because it’s a “steam railway”. I think I wrote before, being fair their reviews on trip adviser don’t seem too bad so maybe I’ve just been a bit unlucky, however by the same token I’ve visited a good three or four times over the years, including before Covid, and have always found it a touch frosty.

 

[bingleybong]

I have to say if a guard tried that on me I would simply insist on waiting at the junction for the advertised later train. If they were stupid enough to try to force me back on the steam train they would be looking at a bill for any extra costs (and more likely me just refusing point blank). It seems pretty obvious that the Island line driver will see peple there and treat it like a request stop.

 

[zwk500]

Yes I think the key there is captive market. People will come because it’s a “steam railway”. I think I wrote before, being fair their reviews on trip adviser don’t seem too bad so maybe I’ve just been a bit unlucky, however by the same token I’ve visited a good three or four times over the years, including before Covid, and have always found it a touch frosty.

It can really depend on which particular people you get as well. I remember one trip to the Bluebell where by and large the staff were polite but not friendly, and you got the sense it was very much a member's club with the tourist trade tolerated for the cash. However my friend and I hopped in the observation car that was running that day and the attendant in there was very friendly and welcoming, happy to chat about everything the railway was doing.
Funnily enough on the smaller railways I often find the volunteers are generally much more welcoming than the more commercialised ones.

 

[Gloster]

I would doubt that Island Line drivers would deliberately fail to call at the end of the IOWSR’s day, but they might treat it as a pick-up only request stop. In that case there is the risk that tourists, still in day-trip-out mode, will be wandering around with their ears closed and might not not be seen by a driver. Island Line definitely does not want people getting off the train if there are no more departures on the IOWSR.

I can’t see Smallbrook closing as long as it does not need major repairs. I think that DoT rules mean that the IOWSR must have a platform there and the maintenance costs of the Island Line side are probably minimal.

 

[penrithsteve]

Firstly, I’m sorry to hear that Calthrop had a poor experience when travelling through Smallbrook Junction last week.

Getting good connections at Smallbrook hasn’t always been easy, particularly with frequent changes to the Island Line timetable. Back in January we were in the awkward position of needing to finalise our 2023 timetable (we still make extensive use of printed leaflets) without having the Island Line timetable confirmed. During March we generally had good connections to the hourly Island Line service.

The Island Line timetable changed on 2 April, with a welcome return of a 30 minute interval service. At this point, the Island Line trains moved by 15 minutes, departing at xx:00 and xx:30 from Ryde/Shanklin rather than xx:15 and xx:45 in order to make it easier for passengers connecting with the ferries. This is a temporary move whilst the pier remains shut. The more frequent services are very welcome, but this does result in a very tight connection off the 14:35 from Havenstreet or a 30 minute wait for the next train.

We’re expecting a further change to the Island Line schedule when Ryde Pier Head reopens (on or before 10 June), with trains reverting back to their previous times, but at this stage the timetable isn’t confirmed.

During April there have been a few instances of Island Line trains missing their booked stops at Smallbrook Junction. Perhaps understandably this leaves members of the team nervous about leaving passengers at Smallbrook at the end of the day. As other posters have pointed out, the station is unusual in having no road or footpath access, and we’re keen that nobody gets stranded.

Looking more broadly, the connection at Smallbrook Junction remains important to us, with roughly 8% of passengers arriving by train this way. Interestingly, the larger passenger flow is from the Shanklin/Sandown direction, rather than via Ryde and the cross-Solent services.
We have a good relationship with the team at Island Line, and we’re keen to see use of the Smallbrook connection increase. The re-introduction of twice-hourly services, and the reopening of the line along Ryde pier should both help. We also have plans to invest £50,000 in facilities at the station to improve the experience for passengers.

More generally, I’m sorry to see comments about unhelpful staff at the IWSR. Whilst I wouldn’t claim that we get everything right, we generally have a good reputation for customer service, which I hope is highlighted in our Tripadvisor comments. Our passenger numbers remain good (still higher than pre-Covid levels), with the Railway operating profitably. This gives us the confidence to keep investing in a number of worthwhile heritage projects, which I hope are appreciated by enthusiasts and more general visitors alike.

Steve Backhouse, General Manager

 

[Starmill]

I think that DoT rules mean that the IOWSR must have a platform there and the maintenance costs of the Island Line side are probably minimal.

I'm not sure that the Department for Transport are that relevant to a tourist attraction?

 

[Gloster]

I'm not sure that the Department for Transport are that relevant to a tourist attraction?

It is still a passenger railway.

 

[Starmill]

It is still a passenger railway.

It is, but not one for the purpose of actual transport. So what is the link with the rule in question?

 

[Gloster]

It is, but not one for the purpose of actual transport. So what is the link with the rule in question?

My understanding, and I admit to not being an expert, is that the DoT, through RAIB, do not want preserved railways to make lengthy pauses for running round at the end of their line at places where there is no platform. They probably have to accept locations where this already exists, but removing a platform at an existing one would be frowned on. There may not be an actual rule, but I doubt that RAIB would allow it.

 

[bramling]

My understanding, and I admit to not being an expert, is that the DoT, through RAIB, do not want preserved railways to make lengthy pauses for running round at the end of their line at places where there is no platform. They probably have to accept locations where this already exists, but removing a platform at an existing one would be frowned on. There may not be an actual rule, but I doubt that RAIB would allow it.

It would’t be RAIB, but could well be ORR. They are the regulating body.

 

[zwk500]

@penrithsteve - Thanks very much for taking the time to reply to the concerns raised. It is very helpful to understand how things look from 'the other side'.

It is, but not one for the purpose of actual transport. So what is the link with the rule in question?

The ORR still regulate Heritage railways.

My understanding, and I admit to not being an expert, is that the DoT, through RAIB, do not want preserved railways to make lengthy pauses for running round at the end of their line at places where there is no platform. They probably have to accept locations where this already exists, but removing a platform at an existing one would be frowned on. There may not be an actual rule, but I doubt that RAIB would allow it.

Quick point of Pedantry - it's the DfT - Departments are 'for' things, It's ministries are 'of' things (I'm not well versed enough to know what the precise differences between a Ministry and a Department are). Also, the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) don't get to rule - they are purely for investigating incidents and reporting on what could be learnt from them. The RSSB (Rail Safety and Standards Board) draws up the rules on safety experience and the ORR makes sure everybody is following them.

Whether or not there is no particular rule for standing outside a platform with passengers on is not really relevant here, as Smallbrook junction is staying for the foreseeable future. Therefore there is a platform for the IoWSR to stand at while they wait to make their connections.

 

[Parham Wood]

I am a little confused. If the electric services are timetabled to stop when steam services are running (as stated in the timetable) at Smallbrook Jnc why do some not stop and why does the IOWSR not make formal complaints when such situations occur or are these ignored? I can see if IOWSR trains are late and would miss the last connection then it is reasonable not to leave passengers at the Jnc.

 

[Starmill]

The ORR still regulate Heritage railways.

They sure do. But the ORR don't have a policy role for tourist lines, so the alleged rule really needed to be explained, which is what I was getting at.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==

I am a little confused. If the electric services are timetabled to stop when steam services are running (as stated in the timetable) at Smallbrook Jnc why do some not stop and why does the IOWSR not make formal complaints when such situations occur or are these ignored? I can see if IOWSR trains are late and would miss the last connection then it is reasonable not to leave passengers at the Jnc.

It is most irregular that the trains are alleged not to have stopped where booked to call.

 

[43066]

Firstly, I’m sorry to hear that Calthrop had a poor experience when travelling through Smallbrook Junction last week.

Getting good connections at Smallbrook hasn’t always been easy, particularly with frequent changes to the Island Line timetable. Back in January we were in the awkward position of needing to finalise our 2023 timetable (we still make extensive use of printed leaflets) without having the Island Line timetable confirmed. During March we generally had good connections to the hourly Island Line service.

The Island Line timetable changed on 2 April, with a welcome return of a 30 minute interval service. At this point, the Island Line trains moved by 15 minutes, departing at xx:00 and xx:30 from Ryde/Shanklin rather than xx:15 and xx:45 in order to make it easier for passengers connecting with the ferries. This is a temporary move whilst the pier remains shut. The more frequent services are very welcome, but this does result in a very tight connection off the 14:35 from Havenstreet or a 30 minute wait for the next train.

We’re expecting a further change to the Island Line schedule when Ryde Pier Head reopens (on or before 10 June), with trains reverting back to their previous times, but at this stage the timetable isn’t confirmed.

During April there have been a few instances of Island Line trains missing their booked stops at Smallbrook Junction. Perhaps understandably this leaves members of the team nervous about leaving passengers at Smallbrook at the end of the day. As other posters have pointed out, the station is unusual in having no road or footpath access, and we’re keen that nobody gets stranded.

Looking more broadly, the connection at Smallbrook Junction remains important to us, with roughly 8% of passengers arriving by train this way. Interestingly, the larger passenger flow is from the Shanklin/Sandown direction, rather than via Ryde and the cross-Solent services.
We have a good relationship with the team at Island Line, and we’re keen to see use of the Smallbrook connection increase. The re-introduction of twice-hourly services, and the reopening of the line along Ryde pier should both help. We also have plans to invest £50,000 in facilities at the station to improve the experience for passengers.

More generally, I’m sorry to see comments about unhelpful staff at the IWSR. Whilst I wouldn’t claim that we get everything right, we generally have a good reputation for customer service, which I hope is highlighted in our Tripadvisor comments. Our passenger numbers remain good (still higher than pre-Covid levels), with the Railway operating profitably. This gives us the confidence to keep investing in a number of worthwhile heritage projects, which I hope are appreciated by enthusiasts and more general visitors alike.

Steve Backhouse, General Manager

Many thanks for taking the time to write this informative post, Steve.

Has the railway had any official correspondence with Island Line about their trains not making booked calls? As noted above, this just seems utterly bizarre for a “mainline” railway, even accepting that the Island Line is somewhat unique.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

This whole situation could be easily fixed by Island line trains stopping when they are ment to.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This whole situation could be easily fixed by Island line trains stopping when they are ment to.

Indeed, but presumably the Island Line trains scheduled to call would need to be 'pick up' only, after the last IoW Steam Railway service of the day has departed from Smallbrook Junction, to prevent anyone being stranded.

 

[bingleybong]

Indeed, but presumably the Island Line trains scheduled to call would need to be 'pick up' only, after the last IoW Steam Railway service of the day has departed from Smallbrook Junction, to prevent anyone being stranded.

That is always going to be the case though, unless the steam railway services waits until the connections in both directions have been and gone. Is there any evidence that anyone has actually been left behind or just that trains have not stopped at an empty platform where no exit is possible?

 

[Falcon1200]

My only visit to the IoWSR was for their diesel gala in September 2017, a most excellent day out and there were certainly no issues with the railway or its staff. Sure enough, however, when I came to return to Ryde, the Island Line train ran through Smallbrook without stopping, or making any attempt to stop. Fortunately, thanks to the line's bizarre timetable, the next train was only 20 minutes later, and did stop, so I was not greatly inconvenienced. So the issue of trains not stopping is not new.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My only visit to the IoWSR was for their diesel gala in September 2017, a most excellent day out and there were certainly no issues with the railway or its staff. Sure enough, however, when I came to return to Ryde, the Island Line train ran through Smallbrook without stopping, or making any attempt to stop. Fortunately, thanks to the line's bizarre timetable, the next train was only 20 minutes later, and did stop, so I was not greatly inconvenienced. So the issue of trains not stopping is not new.

I'm not sure it wouldn't make sense for it to be a request stop for boarding on all trains. If someone ends up there, however it happened, the safest way to get them off is by train, and the quicker it happens the less chance of trespass.

 

[paul1609]

My only visit to the IoWSR was for their diesel gala in September 2017, a most excellent day out and there were certainly no issues with the railway or its staff. Sure enough, however, when I came to return to Ryde, the Island Line train ran through Smallbrook without stopping, or making any attempt to stop. Fortunately, thanks to the line's bizarre timetable, the next train was only 20 minutes later, and did stop, so I was not greatly inconvenienced. So the issue of trains not stopping is not new.

The lines "bizarre" timetable is as a result of trying to provide a connection to the fastcat at Pier Head. Thats far more important to the local economy than the 8000 passengers per year visiting the steam railway. Its all a compromise.

 

[Gloster]

The lines "bizarre" timetable is as a result of trying to provide a connection to the fastcat at Pier Head. Thats far more important to the local economy than the 8000 passengers per year visiting the steam railway. Its all a compromise.

The various works carried in 2021 included reinstating a loop at Brading so that a half-hourly regular interval service could be introduced. However, due to staff shortages, another closure and massive incompetence, this did not appear until the beginning of this month. Almost all the time the FastCats only run hourly, although there are no longer two-hour gaps in the daytime, but you currently have to use a taxi on the Pier. Connections to Portsmouth were the main purpose of the line, but this service has been badly damaged by the shenanigans of the last couple of years. And we are expecting another closure north of St Johns Road in the coming winter. But, as I have said before, private companies have done well out of all this, so it must be a Good Thing.

 

[Calthrop]

@bingleybong writes: "I have to say that if a guard tried that on me I would simply insist on waiting at the junction for the advised later train. If they were stupid enough to try to force me back on the steam train they would be looking at a bill for any extra costs (and more likely me just refusing point blank). It seems pretty obvious that the Island line driver will see people there and treat it like a request stop."

I think that Island Line does not like people on the platform at Smallbrook outside the advertised stopping times of the service due to the fear that they will either a) be a load of idiots who will stand too close to a passing train and try to stop it by putting out an arm, or b) decide to walk along the line to get home. (“‘Dad! What’s this other line, the third one? Can I walk on it?“ “It’s all mucky. Take your shoes off first or you’ll upset the landlady when we get back. Now, ups-a-dai—.”) Island Line have had to disrupt the service in the past because of people on the platform and I suspect that their irritation gets back to the IOWSR.

This is understandable given that there's no entrance or exit bar on a train, and if people get stranded they WILL just walk down the line and jump a fence, and understandably so because they're not just going to sit on an exposed platform all night.

What happened with proposals to run the Steam Railway into St John's Road? Is that viable? Would Smallbrook Farm agree to providing a path as an emergency exit, perhaps, or could one be run alongside the line on railway property to the road? It's not much different in principle to Dovey Junction, and there's footpath access to that.

Access by foot would have its problems: people getting in the way on the farm, parked cars obstructing entrances, rubbish and other human idiocies. I don’t know what the farm’s attitude would be, but if it were me I would be agin it. Everything is complicated by the long-running saga of the Pennyfeathers development on the east side of the railway: I can‘t see the developers seeing the possibility of tourists wandering through the estate being a plus point when trying to sell their de-luxe rabbit hutches.

At the time of my experience as recounted: if I understood him rightly, part of the guard's argument was that passengers left behind at Smallbrook to catch the later, last-calling two Island Line trains -- which might then disobey instructions and fail to stop -- might raise against the IOWSR, claims for compensation re the inconvenience / predicament they had suffered: unwelcome all round, and best avoided. (Apparent blaming for potential and putative things going wrong, of everyone except the IOWSR: leaves a bit of an unpleasant taste in the mouth.)

Hearing the guard's spiel; and having noticed in the Philip's IOW Street Atlas, that there is a path / bridleway / whatever from very near the Junction, running south-eastward through Bartlett's Green Farm to the A3055 road, not hugely far away; it occurred to me that this could provide an exit in the event of being "marooned" -- a bus to Ryde could be got, on the main road. I entertained the thought of producing pen and paper and scribbling out a declaration -- with my signature and IOWSR membership number -- releasing and indemnifying the Railway vis-a-vis any mess which I might get into, through electing to stay at the Junction and hope that the last Island Line trains booked to call there, would do so; handing this document to the guard, and insisting on remaining at the Junction. I dismissed the idea, though, as probably more bother for all concerned, than it would be worth. Issues seen, of tangling with the third rail / being on farm property / trespass in general; and the thing would have been only for a point of principle -- I was staying on the island, and just roaming around at leisure that day: didn't actually have to go to Ryde.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2023 ==

Firstly, I’m sorry to hear that Calthrop had a poor experience when travelling through Smallbrook Junction last week.

For myself, "no worries" -- as told of in previous post, it was personally no skin off my nose; and the guard was perfectly polite in carrying out what he saw as his duty, and all concerned were good-humoured about the whole thing. It just struck me that this appeared to be an unfortunate and rather foolish, and frustrating, set of circumstances; remedying which, would and should be decidedly simple.

As I've posted upthread: seemingly unlike some who've posted here, I have over the years in the great majority of instances, found the IOWSR a delight -- and those operating it in any capacity, mostly very pleasant to deal with.

 

[Gloster]

Hearing the guard's spiel; and having noticed in the Philip's IOW Street Atlas, that there is a path / bridleway / whatever from very near the Junction, running south-eastward through Bartlett's Green Farm to the A3055 road, not hugely far away; it occurred to me that this could provide an exit in the event of being "marooned" -- a bus to Ryde could be got, on the main road.

Unfortunately, the path, which also leads north towards the Oakfield part of Ryde (‘bandit country’: the buses don’t go there in the evening), is the other side of the Island Line. To get to it you would have to cross an open, electrified railway and this is, understandably, not desirable.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I think this was mainly put up by the usual ‘Wouldn’t it be a good idea if someone else did something or other’ people. The IOWSR wasn’t against it, but I reckon that their attitude was rather to the effect that the small amount of extra earnings it would bring in would probably not be justified by the costs and problems involved. The IOWSR is very much orientated towards car-driving holidaymakers staying on the island, rather than day trippers.

Access by foot would have its problems: people getting in the way on the farm, parked cars obstructing entrances, rubbish and other human idiocies. I don’t know what the farm’s attitude would be, but if it were me I would be agin it. Everything is complicated by the long-running saga of the Pennyfeathers development on the east side of the railway: I can‘t see the developers seeing the possibility of tourists wandering through the estate being a plus point when trying to sell their de-luxe rabbit hutches.

Note: I have no connection with the IOWSR, just antennae."

How can this be the "fault" of anyone save Island Line if trains go straight past ignoring booked stops!

Indeed, And given that the Red and Blue timetables could easily move the 14:35 departure to 14:30 to get there 5 minutes ahead of the Island line train you do have to ask how much will there is on the IoWSR side. https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/visit/train-timetables/

 

[nw1]

A bit of an aside but I am amazed that the last (from my understanding) Isle of Wight Steam railway train arrives at 1446. That is incredibly early; 1hr15mins before sunset in December, never mind April!

This time of year I'd expect the railway to operate until around 1700, which is the typical closing down time for tourist attractions.

 

[43066]

How can this be the "fault" of anyone save Island Line if trains go straight past ignoring booked stops!

Are there any forum members who are known to work for the Island Line, or who might otherwise be able to answer this definitively? If so, perhaps someone could @ them.

It would be interesting to hear about that from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.