Thoughts about level crossings

[HSTEd]

Ultimately there is only one foolproof method for eliminating collisions at level crossings.

Eliminate the level crossings.


Of course, the current railway cost base is so high that that is not really a practical solution.

 

[Krokodil]

I beg to differ on the last point, at least if you're talking about seeing them in operation, it's certainly been well over a year since I last saw one simply because there are no routes I drive which include level crossings. There are less level crossings around now than there used to be and those that do exist don't tend to be on major roads (there are exceptions obviously).

See the earlier video where a police officer stated that most offenders are local to the crossings. It's those who are overfamiliar with them who are the problem.

It's a long time since I sat my Theory Test

This is a big issue for driving in general. Once you pass your tests (both theory and practical) you are never assessed again so long as you don't get caught breaking a law (and even then it has to be pretty serious for an extended retest to be ordered). There should be retesting at periodic intervals.

I don't think they need to be on the practical test - after all, you can't guarantee they'll activate and you need multiple test routes.

They could form part of the "show me, tell me" questions at the beginning of the test.

I am trying to recall - are flashing single/double amber lights on the railway a less restrictive aspect than a solid single/double amber ?. If less restrictive then that is a psychological argument that is the opposite to that applied to a flashing red.

SPAD indicators (where they still exist) use flashing red lights to indicate to drivers that they should stop immediately. Flashing red catches the eye better than steady red.

There are no "amber" lights on the railway.

 

[zwk500]

I feel it is the other way round - a solid red means stay here and wait. So does a flashing red invoke alarm and make one more likely to run away rather than just stop ?. If it invokes flight then a problem is if the flight is in the wrong direction !.

never does a flashing red light mean 'get to the other side'

I am trying to recall - are flashing single/double amber lights on the railway a less restrictive aspect than a solid single/double amber ?. If less restrictive then that is a psychological argument that is the opposite to that applied to a flashing red.

Railway signals are not early relevant but a flashing aspect on the railway carries just as much restriction as its regular counterpart - the flashing merely denoting the routing.

Furthermore a flashing orange/amber on the road means proceed if safe to do so / no-one on your carriageway whereas a solid amber although momentary means prepare to stop as red is next.

IIRC wigwag Amber's are steady not flashing.

 

[Railsigns]

There's no doubt that a flashing light is more visually arresting than a steady one. It might seem counterintuitive then that a flashing aspect on the railway always has a less restrictive meaning than an aspect that comprises the same light(s) steadily shown, but this is necessary for failsafe reasons; failure of a flasher unit causes a flashing light to show continuously.

 

[zwk500]

There's no doubt that a flashing light is more visually arresting than a steady one. It might seem counterintuitive then that a flashing aspect on the railway always has a less restrictive meaning than an aspect that comprises the same light(s) steadily shown, but this is necessary for failsafe reasons; failure of a flasher unit causes a flashing light to show continuously.

My understanding of flashing aspects is that the restrictiveness is exactly the same, and the flash is only an indication of diverging route: I.e. F-YY means 'prepare to find the next signal at Caution' same as normal YY, and F-Y means 'prepare to find the next signal at Danger'. After all, the driver cannot know for sure that the aspect sequence will step up.
The exception to this (because it wouldn't be the railway without an exception) is the Flashing green, which does have a less restrictive meaning.

 

[Gaelan]

Interestingly, in the USA, a single flashing red light (either standalone or the red light of a traffic signal) is equivalent to a stop sign. That is, you must come to a full stop, check for danger, then continue. We do also have alternating red flashing lights at level crossings, that mean the same thing as they do in the UK.

Obviously, I'm not implying that the issue here is American drivers misunderstanding signage! But it does seem that there's a great deal of variation in whether flashing red or solid red is more restrictive.

 

[Railsigns]

My understanding of flashing aspects is that the restrictiveness is exactly the same, and the flash is only an indication of diverging route: I.e. F-YY means 'prepare to find the next signal at Caution' same as normal YY, and F-Y means 'prepare to find the next signal at Danger'. After all, the driver cannot know for sure that the aspect sequence will step up.
The exception to this (because it wouldn't be the railway without an exception) is the Flashing green, which does have a less restrictive meaning.

Your understanding is wrong. A flashing single yellow means that the next signal (the junction signal) is showing a proceed aspect for a diverging route. Steady single yellow at the same signal means prepare to stop at the junction signal.

 

[zwk500]

Your understanding is wrong. A flashing single yellow means that the next signal (the junction signal) is showing a proceed aspect for a diverging route. Steady single yellow at the same signal means prepare to stop at the junction signal.

Much obliged - the perils of only being told what we needed for the office!

 

[PTR 444]

I suggest a trial - fit ordinary traffic lights at a well-used crossing - Poole, say, and see if it makes any difference to behaviour - drivers and pedestrians alike. I suspect it will - by substituting normality for the wig-wag challenge.

Putting the differences between wig-wags and ordinary traffic lights to one side, this particular level crossing is one of a tiny breed which doesn’t even see any vehicular traffic. You’d be better off with pedestrian signals instead!

 

[zwk500]

Putting the differences between wig-wags and ordinary traffic lights to one side, this particular level crossing is one of a tiny breed which doesn’t even see any vehicular traffic. You’d be better off with pedestrian signals instead!

Best option at Poole is to put a fully accessible footbridge in a la Lincoln High Street, although IIRC there's a vague proposal to move the station so presumably any LX project is waiting to see what happens with that.

 

[Wychwood93]

Putting the differences between wig-wags and ordinary traffic lights to one side, this particular level crossing is one of a tiny breed which doesn’t even see any vehicular traffic. You’d be better off with pedestrian signals instead!

Indeed! IIRC only emergency vehicles can use it. The footbridge there is steep and narrow and a solution has been considered, without success, for many years.

 

[PTR 444]

Best option at Poole is to put a fully accessible footbridge in a la Lincoln High Street, although IIRC there's a vague proposal to move the station so presumably any LX project is waiting to see what happens with that.

Presumably with the station moved, the crossing would see one less train movement per hour. Even so, a fully accessible upgraded footbridge would still be a lifeline considering the high pedestrian footfall along Poole High Street.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is this the case? I have always understood that a flashing light is easier for the human eye to detect than a steady one - hence why cyclists often have flashing head and tail lights. It’s also why emergency vehicles have flashing rather than steady lights.

Trouble its that a flashing light may be more noticeable (some would say distracting but there is always going to be that). But being more noticeable does not necessarily mean it follows that it is more restrictive. In the case of flashing cycle lights and blue emergency services flashing lights it is to draw attention but does not imply the viewer should behave much differently. It is just that the moving object is more noticeable. In the case of blue flashing it means give way perhaps but not much more than you would do for the emergency services anyway.

Ultimately there is only one foolproof method for eliminating collisions at level crossings.

Eliminate the level crossings.


Of course, the current railway cost base is so high that that is not really a practical solution.

And we have to be thankful that in the more risky/busier places level crossings are steadily being eliminated. I wonder if the crossings around South West London would be converted with more urgency if the views of the motorists held up by them were taken into account AND paid for from a non-rail budget.

See the earlier video where a police officer stated that most offenders are local to the crossings. It's those who are overfamiliar with them who are the problem.

This is a big issue for driving in general. Once you pass your tests (both theory and practical) you are never assessed again so long as you don't get caught breaking a law (and even then it has to be pretty serious for an extended retest to be ordered). There should be retesting at periodic intervals.

They could form part of the "show me, tell me" questions at the beginning of the test.

SPAD indicators (where they still exist) use flashing red lights to indicate to drivers that they should stop immediately. Flashing red catches the eye better than steady red.

There are no "amber" lights on the railway.

Sorry for amber read yellow.

So to correct my myself the question was :-
I am trying to recall - are flashing single/double amber yellow lights on the railway a less restrictive aspect than a solid single/double amber yellow ?. If less restrictive then that is a psychological argument that is the opposite to that applied to a flashing red on the road.

But I get that it was a technical reason rater than a psychological reason for the flashing yellow(s).

I think you answered it via the answer about turn out speed for flashing yellow vs red ahead for non-flashing yellow. So flashing yellow is less restrictive. But I will ask in-case I have lost understanding.

 

[HSTEd]

And we have to be thankful that in the more risky/busier places level crossings are steadily being eliminated. I wonder if the crossings around South West London would be converted with more urgency if the views of the motorists held up by them were taken into account AND paid for from a non-rail budget.

Network Rail claims to have closed around 20% of the level crossings that were on the system in 2009 (5800 left and ~1500 closed since 2009).

I do wonder how much it would cost just to be done with them forever.

 

[Ediswan]

To show there is variety, here is an example of wig-wags and standard traffic lights at the same place, sharing the same stop line.

The location is Percival Way at Luton Airport. The wig-wags are for fuel tankers crossing. The traffic lights are for a pedestrian crossing. I presume the traffic lights are set to go red when the wig-wags are in use.

Google Maps

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goo.gl

 

[Falcon1200]

Network Rail claims to have closed around 20% of the level crossings that were on the system in 2009 (5800 left and ~1500 closed since 2009).

I do wonder how much it would cost just to be done with them forever.

An awful lot, and totally out of proportion to the resulting safety benefit. Plus in some places very difficult to achieve due to the local geography!

 

[Peter Sarf]

To show there is variety, here is an example of wig-wags and standard traffic lights at the same place, sharing the same stop line.

The location is Percival Way at Luton Airport. The wig-wags are for fuel tankers crossing. The traffic lights are for a pedestrian crossing. I presume the traffic lights are set to go red when the wig-wags are in use.

Google Maps

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That is interesting.

It looks like the red-yellow-green lights are just pedestrian crossing lights - I dread to think that if they are not interlocked with the zig-zag lights someone could be confronted with a solid green AND the red zig-zag lights.

I also cannot see any zig-zag lights for the cars coming from the opposite direction ?.

 

[6Gman]

Is this the case? I have always understood that a flashing light is easier for the human eye to detect than a steady one - hence why cyclists often have flashing head and tail lights. It’s also why emergency vehicles have flashing rather than steady lights.

I would agree with this. I use an AHB most days and the flashing red is far more prominent than any steady red would be.

And I'm struggling to think of any incident of misuse here in the past 20 years we have been crossing it.

 

[Llanigraham]

Trouble its that a flashing light may be more noticeable (some would say distracting but there is always going to be that). But being more noticeable does not necessarily mean it follows that it is more restrictive. In the case of flashing cycle lights and blue emergency services flashing lights it is to draw attention but does not imply the viewer should behave much differently. It is just that the moving object is more noticeable. In the case of blue flashing it means give way perhaps but not much more than you would do for the emergency services anyway.

So an emergency vehicle sat at the side of the road with it's lights on isn't noticeable?
And they do NOT mean give way.

I am trying to recall - are flashing single/double amber yellow lights on the railway a less restrictive aspect than a solid single/double amber yellow ?. If less restrictive then that is a psychological argument that is the opposite to that applied to a flashing red on the road.

Comparison between the road and rail signals is pointless.

From your replies here I suggest it might be a very good idea for you to firstly purchase a copy of the current Highway Code and secondly consider taking an Advanced or Defensive Driving course, either from RoSPA or the IAM, or even some Road Safety Depts now run them, especially for "older" drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2023 ==

That is interesting.

It looks like the red-yellow-green lights are just pedestrian crossing lights - I dread to think that if they are not interlocked with the zig-zag lights someone could be confronted with a solid green AND the red zig-zag lights.

I also cannot see any zig-zag lights for the cars coming from the opposite direction ?.

The Red/Yellow/Green lights are pedestrian crossing ones ONLY.
The WIG WAGS (they are NOT zig zags!!!!) are for the fuel tanker crossing

 

[Peter Sarf]

So an emergency vehicle sat at the side of the road with it's lights on isn't noticeable?
And they do NOT mean give way.

Comparison between the road and rail signals is pointless.

From your replies here I suggest it might be a very good idea for you to firstly purchase a copy of the current Highway Code and secondly consider taking an Advanced or Defensive Driving course, either from RoSPA or the IAM, or even some Road Safety Depts now run them, especially for "older" drivers.

My bold

I did not say it was not more visible ?.
I could not think of a description for "give way" but I mean expect the emergency service vehicle to expect you to back off, move over or keep out of the way.
In both cases a flashing light does not necessarily mean stop.

Bear in mind I am not clinging to exactly what the highway code prescribes regarding flashing reds. I am pointing out how people might instinctively react and that a solid red at a level crossing might be beneficial.

 

[PTR 444]

To show there is variety, here is an example of wig-wags and standard traffic lights at the same place, sharing the same stop line.

The location is Percival Way at Luton Airport. The wig-wags are for fuel tankers crossing. The traffic lights are for a pedestrian crossing. I presume the traffic lights are set to go red when the wig-wags are in use.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

A similar situation exists at the Lymington level crossing, although the ordinary traffic lights are for a junction rather than a pedestrian crossing.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[norbitonflyer]

The crossing in the video seemed to be at Barnes and I seem to recall a large proportion of every hour the crossings around there are shut to road traffic - getting on for 50%. So impatience around South West London has to be a factor - but not an excuse.

It is SW London, but not in Barnes. West Barnes Lane is between Raynes Park and Motspur Park. 4tph in each direction.

The crossings in Barnes have 6tph off peak (used to be eight when the Hounslow roundabout was still running)

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is SW London, but not in Barnes. West Barnes Lane is between Raynes Park and Motspur Park. 4tph in each direction.

The crossings in Barnes have 6tph off peak (used to be eight when the Hounslow roundabout was still running)

Thanks. Does anyone know how much of every hour is the crossing is shut to road traffic ?.

I fear it is a large proportion as 4tph each way is a heavy enough service service - 8 closures per hour. I have read reports ages ago about how hard it is to drive around SW London due to the above average number of crossings.

And I suspect there are limited alternatives - need to dig out a map.

 

[Ediswan]

I also cannot see any zig-zag lights for the cars coming from the opposite direction ?.

They are about 100 metres away, beyond the two junctions.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They are about 100 metres away, beyond the two junctions.

Thanks - I zoomed in but should have navigated further forward !.

 

[MattRat]

I think the only way you stop people is with a physical barrier. Have some of those lifting bollards you get for pedestrian areas, the ones that lower to allow commercial and emergency vehicles through, just in reverse order so they only raise when trains pass, and while you'd have to clear up the mess of drivers smacking into bollards, it would guaranteed stop them jumping level crossing, and keep the rails clear.

 

[GusB]

It's more like five minutes, even ten on a mainline. These days that's the difference between getting to work on time and getting your last warning. A stupid decision made for seemingly rational reasons. People have also surely grown used to the idea the lights start flashing well before a train arrives, so in that respect, it can seem like a very low risk, risk.

If being delayed by a railway crossing is the difference between being ticked off for being slightly late and a final warning for persistent lateness, you need to plan your journey a bit better!

It's no different to catching the latest bus or train possible that just gets you there in time and no more; if you don't leave any margin for delays it's your own fault and nobody else's.

 

[NoRoute]

Is this the case? I have always understood that a flashing light is easier for the human eye to detect than a steady one - hence why cyclists often have flashing head and tail lights. It’s also why emergency vehicles have flashing rather than steady lights.

Quite likely a flashing light is easier to detect, but once that light is detected there is then a further step, where the person then has to interpret what that flashing light means and what their response should be.

A typical road driver encounters a steady red light so frequently that their response is automatic, there's no uncertainty. Encountering flashing red wig-wags is much rarer, it can be years or decades between drivers seeing them flashing and needing to respond, hence there is not the same continual reinforcement and automatic response. It doesn't help that on the roads when flashing lights are used, the most common situation is a flashing amber, which means either caution hazard or caution and stop if you can see a pedestrian crossing but otherwise proceed with caution.

The other issue, is the absence of a permissive green light on the wig-wags, to draw attention to their presence on approach and to emphasis that the permission to proceed has been removed, as it changes from green, to amber, to flashing red.

 

[edwin_m]

More the case that a straight red evokes a more instant/fundamental response. Certainly not referring to people who go through having seen the zig-zag reds for long enough to think.

Why does it have to be an instant reaction? Unless grossly speeding, the lights should come into view in very good time to interpret them and stop safely.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the problem with the zig zag lights is they are not perceived as like a solid red.

I disagree. I think the problem is that a very small percentage of people don’t perceive them as a solid red, as they either a) haven’t studied the Highway Code, or b) have studied it and forgotten it. Either way, no excuse.

What about using pop up vehicle barriers

Looked at that. Rather terminal for anything in the way at the wrong time, and would take much longer to fix than barriers. (I have, personally, fixed an LX barrier damaged by a ‘light jumper’ in 10 minutes, and that was reckoned to be a long time!)

For the hardened transgressors of railway level crossings this is no different to drivers who persistently break the speed limit.

It is very different. If you enter a level crossing that is closing or closed with the red wig wags flashing, there is a real chance of death or serious injury every time, as there is a train on approach, potentially a matter of seconds away. If you break the speed limit, there isn’t.

Network Rail claims to have closed around 20% of the level crossings that were on the system in 2009 (5800 left and ~1500 closed since 2009).

I do wonder how much it would cost just to be done with them forever.

An awful lot of money. A significant majority of those that closed are ‘easy’, typically private crossings where the farmer has been bunged a few quid (legitimately, obviously!) and footpaths with a simple diversion. Very few are highways, maybe 1-2% of the closures.

Thanks. Does anyone know how much of every hour is the crossing is shut to road traffic ?.

Pre Covid, West Barnes Lane was down for an average of 36mins in the hour at peak times IIRC (and it was 8tph each way back then). if Crossrail 2 ever happens, it will be closed and a bridge built.

I really cannot think of any other situation in life generally where a Klaxon with Red Flashing lights means 'continue normally'.

There is an exception…

Interestingly, in the USA, a single flashing red light (either standalone or the red light of a traffic signal) is equivalent to a stop sign. That is, you must come to a full stop, check for danger, then continue.

Completely threw me when I first came across one of these at the exit ramp from a freeway in Florida. I had no idea what to do!