D&G Buses

[markymark2000]

Generally operators haven't objected to contracted services part duplicating their commercial service. If it the 84 is deemed to compete with the 84X one solution could be to make certain stops pick up only or set down only, rather than Chester services not running through to Crewe.

Have you ever attempted to enforce pick up/set down only. Pick up only works but you risk stopping everywhere for people to just say 'i want the next stop' which heavily delays the service. Set down only turns into arguements when you stop at a stop to let someone off but refuse to let anyone on. When GHA was doing it, they lost the tenders so would take it on commercially so the tender had to be revoked as you can not have tendered routes competing with commercial ones. That the law.

There were plans to introduce a service to the hospital on Sundays but then Covid hit. I'm sure there is some demand but without a bus service to see the demand, then how can this be judged?

That was using bus service improvement plan funding and was on a stupid route going here, there and everywhere. The fact that it has to be funded using BSIP money (not council normal it's not viable.

 

[Martin1988]

There was a Sunday service to Leighton until about July 2018 I think but my understanding was that it was commercial and D&G pulled it.

I agree with the suggestion that the 84x should be extended to Leighton. I also think the relevant journeys should be extended in Nantwich in the morning/afternoon to serve the secondary school- this is based on my previous experience of a packed decker on the 84 at that time.

I also get the feeling the 84 is popular amongst passholders going from Crewe/Nantwich for a day out in Chester so if Stagecoach are only going to use single deckers meaning space is already more restricted I can see why at times it will be useful to have D&G's service as an alternative.

I've always had an issue with 'longer distance' services which are popular with passholders but where the operator cannot or will not use vehicles with a high enough capacity meaning space is at a premium.

 

[northwichcat]

Have you ever attempted to enforce pick up/set down only. Pick up only works but you risk stopping everywhere for people to just say 'i want the next stop' which heavily delays the service. Set down only turns into arguements when you stop at a stop to let someone off but refuse to let anyone on.

It works if there's no fares for journeys that can't be made and anyone boarding at a set down only stop has to pay a higher fare (from a previous stop). I've certainly seen passengers board a bus and then immediately alight when they are told the fare is higher than on the service they normally use.

When GHA was doing it, they lost the tenders so would take it on commercially so the tender had to be revoked as you can not have tendered routes competing with commercial ones.

As far as I'm aware GHA only did it once in response to a lost tender - the 130 Sunday service. Other times they were registering a commercial service against an already existing subsided service, or waiting for a service to go out to tender, then getting a commercial registration in before the tendering process is complete. Both GHA and High Peak did that with the 27 service at different times.

That the law.

The law gets intrepreted in different ways. Cheshire East Council were adamant that if there's a 2 hourly Macclesfield to Knutsford commercial service then they cannot contract services to run between the first and last service. Yet TfGM contracted an evening 247 service to Manchester Community Transport, when Arriva were running the daytime service and the contracted service included one journey that was before the last commercial journey. TfGM's view is people need to travel at 6pm, then they those passengers aren't going to hang around until 7.30pm if that's the time of the next commercial journey, so it's OK to contract a 6pm journey.

The 130 used to be commercial. I don't recall Arriva having any issues with the contracted 27 also serving Broken Cross and Macclesfield Hospital. In fact, at one point peak time 27s also served Alderley Park as well, increasing the duplication. I think Arriva accepted the 27 is primarily there for Chelford and Knutsford passengers and the 130 didn't serve those places.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

I've always had an issue with 'longer distance' services which are popular with passholders but where the operator cannot or will not use vehicles with a high enough capacity meaning space is at a premium.

I understand that's an issue, in particular, with seaside services just after 09:30. A 09:35 Scarborough to Whitby service, for instance, might not be a good service to choose if you want to be guaranteed a seat.

 

[Martin1988]

If there is genuinely an issue with certain journeus overloading you'd think the bus company concerned would address this by increasing the capacity.

Not overly sure what the loadings are like on the 84 during the day but would D&G or Stagecoach realistically see it as good business sense to run a higher capacity vehicle with higher operating costs or operate an extra journey commercially largely to accomodate leisure journeys made by concessionary passholders that bring in little revenue or one or two busy journeys which school passengers utilise?

 

[northwichcat]

The X84 is indeed free for the first week.

They now confirmed this on their website, along with a 10 trip ticket for £10 if purchased by 1st May.

New service 84X

Crewe - Nantwich DIRECT
up to every 30 minutes, seven days a week!

Try us for free!
Travel free on service 84X until 29th April

10 trips for only £15 exclusively on the myTrip app
Buy your 10 trip ticket before 1st May for only £10!
Tickets are valid for up to a month from purchase

Home | D&G Bus

dgbus.co.uk

A shame there's no incentive to attract passengers on other routes, where they don't have competition.

 

[SeanM1997]

They now confirmed this on their website, along with a 10 trip ticket for £10 if purchased by 1st May.

Home | D&G Bus

dgbus.co.uk

A shame there's no incentive to attract passengers on other routes, where they don't have competition.

Copying Stagecoach (admittedly they had to get any passengers on). I can't see this battle ending well and whilst short term it will be good for the consumer, long term neither service may be profitable

Its a shame D&G don't look to grow their 85 as an alternative route between Nantwich and Crewe (back to half-hourly) and offer greater flexibility, with clockface 15-minute service between Crewe and Nantwich/Nantwich and Crewe

 

[Lewisham2221]

It was founded by David and Gareth and they claimed they hadn't heard of Dolce and Gabbana when they set up the bus company.

David Reeves and Gerald Henderson

 

[Danfilm007]

Copying Stagecoach (admittedly they had to get any passengers on). I can't see this battle ending well and whilst short term it will be good for the consumer, long term neither service may be profitable

Its a shame D&G don't look to grow their 85 as an alternative route between Nantwich and Crewe (back to half-hourly) and offer greater flexibility, with clockface 15-minute service between Crewe and Nantwich/Nantwich and Crewe

Routemaster tried this to a modest success before GHA GHA'd. Clockface 15 min would be perfect - they did do it once before remember... (4 operators on the 84 was, ahem, interesting)

 

[bunty0657]

That was using bus service improvement plan funding and was on a stupid route going here, there and everywhere. The fact that it has to be funded using BSIP money (not council normal it's not viable.

It's not 'the fact' at all. Cheshire East has not been allocated any Bus Service Improvement Plan money.

 

[childwallblues]

There was a Sunday service to Leighton until about July 2018 I think but my understanding was that it was commercial and D&G pulled it.

I agree with the suggestion that the 84x should be extended to Leighton. I also think the relevant journeys should be extended in Nantwich in the morning/afternoon to serve the secondary school- this is based on my previous experience of a packed decker on the 84 at that time.

I also get the feeling the 84 is popular amongst passholders going from Crewe/Nantwich for a day out in Chester so if Stagecoach are only going to use single deckers meaning space is already more restricted I can see why at times it will be useful to have D&G's service as an alternative.

I've always had an issue with 'longer distance' services which are popular with passholders but where the operator cannot or will not use vehicles with a high enough capacity meaning space is at a premium.

Single deckers have more seats than downstairs on a double which passholders tend to use.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There appears to be some confusion over what's happening to the former Arriva staff at Macclesfield. Looks like everyone's favourite Stoke-on-Trent based bus operator isn't respecting TUPE.

Arriva exits Macclesfield and Winsford as others move in - routeone

Arriva North West closed its depots at Macclesfield and Winsford after service on 22 April and has withdrawn all services at those locations.

www.route-one.net

While most former Arriva services have been taken on by others, it is understood that a dispute between the outgoing operator and D&G has arisen over drivers moving from Arriva under TUPE. The Deutsche Bahn subsidiary has not commented on the matter, while a Centrebus spokesperson would only confirm the TUPE dispute’s existence.

In a staff notice on 24 March, Arriva North West Area Operations Director Howard Farrall told Macclesfield and Winsford drivers that as D&G had at that point registered four routes that Arriva operated, “we can now confirm that TUPE does apply to some of our drivers.”

Four days later, a notice from D&G Operations Director Kevin Crawford to staff stated that “TUPE does not exist” as far as the transfer of work was concerned. It has been claimed that a Unite representative then informed members employed by Arriva at Winsford that the union was seeking full redundancy payments from the group for all staff affected.

Worries over TUPE implications are understood to have led one other potential operator to have quelled its interest in taking on any former Arriva routes. Driver shortages continued to impact Arriva’s operation until the closing day.

 

[sonic2009]

There's 21 drivers who this has happened to and offered no redundancy and were told to turn up at D&G at 9am this morning to be told TUPE doesn't exist for them. I've been told this by a few drivers I personally know and from posts on Facebook. I hope something is sorted for them.

** I dont know the full ins and out of what's happened only from what i have seen, been told or read**

 

[LOL The Irony]

There's 21 drivers who this has happened to and offered no redundancy and were told to turn up at D&G at 9am this morning to be told TUPE doesn't exist for them. I've been told this by a few drivers I personally know and from posts on Facebook. I hope something is sorted for them.

Naughty naughty. I suppose the idea is to rehire them on lower pay.

 

[bunty0657]

There appears to be some confusion over what's happening to the former Arriva staff at Macclesfield. Looks like everyone's favourite Stoke-on-Trent based bus operator isn't respecting TUPE.

Arriva exits Macclesfield and Winsford as others move in - routeone

Arriva North West closed its depots at Macclesfield and Winsford after service on 22 April and has withdrawn all services at those locations.

www.route-one.net

Can you kindly explain how TUPE applies in this situation?

 

[SeanM1997]

Centrebus have confirmed the lease of the former Macclesfield depot and an overall D&G uplift of 12 PVR:

Arriva exits Macclesfield and Winsford as others move in - routeone

Arriva North West closed its depots at Macclesfield and Winsford after service on 22 April and has withdrawn all services at those locations.

www.route-one.net

D&G’s overall PVR uplift is 12, Centrebus Group Commercial Officer Chris Almond has confirmed. It has also agreed a lease on the former Arriva depot in Macclesfield and recruited the incumbent manager there to run that operation, which is expected to commence soon after work to equip the premises is completed.

Initially local services will run from the Macclesfield depot, but Mr Almond says that scope exists to increase work there in the future subject to driver recruitment. D&G already has Cheshire bases in Crewe and Wincham, near Northwich.

It'll be interesting if the 14/14A transfers from High Peak to D&G in due course or if they look to expanding routes such as adding an additional 38 Macclesfield-Crewe, given that was served by both Arriva and D&G

 

[markymark2000]

Usual caveats apply with Bustimes such as tracking error but generally D&G ars quite good with this sort of thing and I therefore believe this to be a genuine allocation. If anyone has any proof to the contrary, I shall happily delete the comment and apologise.

Seems like it didnt take too long for a core interurban route to have the Solo dumped on it.

140 - YJ55 BHU

Optare Solo

bustimes.org

 

[northwichcat]

Can you kindly explain how TUPE applies in this situation?

If D&G are not acquiring Arriva's Winsford and Macclesfield operations they have two choices:
1. Recruit new drivers and train them on the new routes. Arriva then have to pay redundancy payments to drivers.
2. Arrange TUPE for drivers who already know the routes but with the drivers retaining their contract terms from the old employer.

Option 2 is obviously quicker and cheaper in the short term for both Arriva and D&G.

Centrebus have confirmed the lease of the former Macclesfield depot and an overall D&G uplift of 12 PVR:

It'll be interesting if the 14/14A transfers from High Peak to D&G in due course or if they look to expanding routes such as adding an additional 38 Macclesfield-Crewe, given that was served by both Arriva and D&G

I wonder if Macclesfield will be seen as a Crewe outstation or a Stoke outstation. Crewe having two outstations might mean they get overloaded with servicing.

I notice the new Macclesfield locals are being operated by 3 small Enviros that were running Cheshire routes last week. So, if it's been operated from Stoke today then some vehicles have been moved around.

The 38 and 85 seem to be allocated large vehicles for all services, rather than the mix of small and large they had last week. One of the vehicles on the 85 was running Chaserider services last week.

The 31 and 37 seem to be allocated large Enviros and one of the big Solos. The latter will have a lower total capacity.

The 84X is allocated two small Enviros, so they obviously aren't expecting too many passengers on it, or if they are then they just don't have enough large vehicles.

 

[sonic2009]

Usual caveats apply with Bustimes such as tracking error but generally D&G ars quite good with this sort of thing and I therefore believe this to be a genuine allocation. If anyone has any proof to the contrary, I shall happily delete the comment and apologise.

Seems like it didnt take too long for a core interurban route to have the Solo dumped on it.

140 - YJ55 BHU

Optare Solo

bustimes.org

Can confirm this is definitely a Solo, has just gone past my work towards Northwich.

 

[northwichcat]

Can confirm this is definitely a Solo, has just gone past my work towards Northwich.

I'm not sure what the big fuss about a Solo being used is. One of the small Enviros would have had around 20% less seating and while the 55 reg Solos aren't that great, the 13 reg SRs have high spec interiors so are arguably more pleasant for a longer journey than the Streetlites.

 

[markymark2000]

I'm not sure what the big fuss about a Solo being used is. One of the small Enviros would have had around 20% less seating and while the 55 reg Solos aren't that great, the 13 reg SRs have high spec interiors so are arguably more pleasant for a longer journey than the Streetlites.

It's not just about the seating capacity but also the journey quality and the reliability. Solos do not work very well mechanically on longer distance interurban routes but E200s tend to do slightly better.
They are very noisy and generally not the most comfortable. People don't want to be on them.

Solo SRs aren't as bad as they are built to more modern standards but this can vary massively depending on the interior. On the scale of suitability though, they still aren't very high.

Streetlites are nice, very controversial but I'd take a street lite any day over most other buses. The WF lites aren't the best for this work but DF streetlites of a decent length would be suitable I think

 

[northwichcat]

They are very noisy and generally not the most comfortable. People don't want to be on them.

Solo SRs aren't as bad as they are built to more modern standards but this can vary massively depending on the interior. On the scale of suitability though, they still aren't very high.

Streetlites are nice, very controversial but I'd take a street lite any day over most other buses. The WF lites aren't the best for this work but DF streetlites of a decent length would be suitable I think

I'd say in general Optare buses are quieter than Alexander Dennis and Wrightbus, unless you choose to sit on the very back row. The seating on the 55 reg Solos at D&G is exactly the same as on their newer Enviro 200s.

D&G's Streetlite WFs are very noisy and rattly. The DFs are OK and seem better than the Enviro 200s for hill climbing. Didn't D&G swap the Enviro 200s on the 82 for Versas because the Enviros really struggled with the hills?

I travelled on one of the SRs on the 89 when it was diverted directly up the A556 and it was fine. It didn't have brilliant acceleration for a fast moving road but the ride quality was fine.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Seems like it didnt take too long for a core interurban route to have the Solo dumped on it.

Solos are fine as long as they're the long ones that used to be on the 88. The short ones are wholly unsuitable for such routes.

 

[Contains Nuts]

It's not just about the seating capacity but also the journey quality and the reliability. Solos do not work very well mechanically on longer distance interurban routes but E200s tend to do slightly better.
They are very noisy and generally not the most comfortable. People don't want to be on them.

Solo SRs aren't as bad as they are built to more modern standards but this can vary massively depending on the interior. On the scale of suitability though, they still aren't very high.

Streetlites are nice, very controversial but I'd take a street lite any day over most other buses. The WF lites aren't the best for this work but DF streetlites of a decent length would be suitable I think

Optare Solos have, in many cases, the same engine and gearbox as larger buses such as the Versa or Metrocity. The argument of ‘not working very well mechanically’ is utterly ridiculous and very much the comment of someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about!

 

[JKP]

It's not just about the seating capacity but also the journey quality and the reliability. Solos do not work very well mechanically on longer distance interurban routes but E200s tend to do slightly better.
They are very noisy and generally not the most comfortable. People don't want to be on them.

Solo SRs aren't as bad as they are built to more modern standards but this can vary massively depending on the interior. On the scale of suitability though, they still aren't very high.

Streetlites are nice, very controversial but I'd take a street lite any day over most other buses. The WF lites aren't the best for this work but DF streetlites of a decent length would be suitable I think

My experience travelling long distances on my local operator, is that the larger Solos are slightly noisier when driven at 50mph but their suspension and hence ride quality is better than the operator’s new E200s which have replaced them. The E200 also has generally less legroom and the seats are not so comfortable as the Solos.

I have no experience of Streetlite DF. The Streetlite WF were difficult to see out of if riding in the low floor section.

Personally give me a Versa, Metrocity or E300 over an E200 any day.

 

[GusB]

We are getting away from the main topic here. Anyone who wishes to discuss the Enviro versus Solo situation is welcome to do so in a separate thread.

 

[sonic2009]

I wonder if Macclesfield will be seen as a Crewe outstation or a Stoke outstation. Crewe having two outstations might mean they get overloaded with servicing

Could the longer term plan for D&G be that they go for the old Arriva Winsford Depot when the premises become vacant?

I've not seen the running boards or anything but how much dead mileage will D&G have with the new routes taken on?

I suspect lower than Arriva used to have.

 

[M803UYA]

There appears to be some confusion over what's happening to the former Arriva staff at Macclesfield. Looks like everyone's favourite Stoke-on-Trent based bus operator isn't respecting TUPE.

Arriva exits Macclesfield and Winsford as others move in - routeone

Arriva North West closed its depots at Macclesfield and Winsford after service on 22 April and has withdrawn all services at those locations.

www.route-one.net

D&G leasing the former Arriva depot is an interesting situation. They haven't transferred drivers rather registered new services to replace deregistrations. D&G's terms and conditions will be inferior to Arriva's, so not in the company's financial interest to retain Arriva Ts and Cs. It should provide much work for the legal profession as it appears to be a legal grey area.

If Arriva repeat this they'll find drivers simply walking out on them whenever they close a depot, thus accelerating the closure process because they cannot operate services. If there is no redundancy payment on offer, people are hardly going to stay around and help them shut down!

 

[Martin1988]

Hope nobody minds be asking but is there any reason as to why D&G have not retained the 2335 journeys on the 38 from Crewe and Macclesfield respectively?

A couple of lads who had photographed the 2335 to Macclesfield on Saturday night suggested to me that it had a packed Solo on it.

Presumably it would be a lot of dead mileage for D&G to run out to Macclesfield in service then back empty but surely they could at least terminate it short at Congleton?

 

[Contains Nuts]

D&G leasing the former Arriva depot is an interesting situation. They haven't transferred drivers rather registered new services to replace deregistrations. D&G's terms and conditions will be inferior to Arriva's, so not in the company's financial interest to retain Arriva Ts and Cs. It should provide much work for the legal profession as it appears to be a legal grey area.

If Arriva repeat this they'll find drivers simply walking out on them whenever they close a depot, thus accelerating the closure process because they cannot operate services. If there is no redundancy payment on offer, people are hardly going to stay around and help them shut down!

Why would D&G’s conditions be inferior? Do you have any evidence to back that up?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Why would D&G’s conditions be inferior? Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Whilst I can't comment specifically on this particular example, it's almost a given that pay and conditions at a smaller company will be inferior to those at one of the big groups. Often this is due to more prominent union involvement and/or historic legacy. That's one of the ways that smaller operators manage to be more competitive and means that services which are not commercially viable for a large operator can be profitable for a smaller firm. We're talking things like rate of pay, holiday entitlement, sick pay, scheduling and rostering, travel arrangements (staff/family travel, staff buses) and also things like corporate perks (various corporate discount schemes, employee assistance/welfare programs, heavily discounted rail travel on TOC's that form part of the parent group etc etc)