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TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

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Haywain

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What about those who tap in using contactless, or even worse an Oystercard, but go to the likes of Luton or Gatwick Airports?
What about them? There will only be a problem if trying to use Oyster to Luton Airport Parkway, where it isn't accepted. In which case they'll be dealing with either buying a new ticket or paying a Penalty Fare. If they are using contactless there won't be a problem. Both Oyster and contactless are accepted at Gatwick.
 
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Richardr

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What about them? There will only be a problem if trying to use Oyster to Luton Airport Parkway, where it isn't accepted. In which case they'll be dealing with either buying a new ticket or paying a Penalty Fare. If they are using contactless there won't be a problem. Both Oyster and contactless are accepted at Gatwick.

I meant those who fail to tap out in these longer and more expensive trips for whatever reason, having had a day out in London - is this not an example of why the all zone cap may not be in place?
 

davews

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As suggested up thread the other day I emailed my MP and copied it to one of our local councillors who I know personally. No response yet from MP, not even an auto response, but councillor replied:

I have asked our officers to look into this, with a view to the Council making an objection response to the consultation.

Whether they do of course is another matter.
 

SussexSeagull

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If I want to go from Durrington to St Pancras, which can be done entirely using Southern and Thameslink trains without using TFL with my Network Card, I am quoted £19.45 by 'default' for a one day off peak Travelcard with no option to remove the Travelcard bit. If this does come to fruition I really hope point to point tickets will become available for people who don't need to use TFL as their destination is near a National Rail station.
 

Starmill

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If I want to go from Durrington to St Pancras, which can be done entirely using Southern and Thameslink trains without using TFL with my Network Card, I am quoted £19.45 by 'default' for a one day off peak Travelcard with no option to remove the Travelcard bit. If this does come to fruition I really hope point to point tickets will become available for people who don't need to use TFL as their destination is near a National Rail station.
Ironically it's cheaper to buy a single to London Victoria for £14.75 and use London Underground for £2.70.
 

MikeWh

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The frustrating thing about the maximum journey times, and the 2 x max fares charged in such circumstances, is that TfL state that they limit you to reconciling only 3 such maximum fares in any month.

I usually opt for paper day travelcard where possible for this reason.

On Oyster, one delay which takes you beyond the journey time TfL expects and you’ve used up 2 of your 3 lives.

This is really easy to do, particularly when using London Overground as part of the journey, or when an OSI joins two journeys together without you realising.

When an OSI joined my two journeys together, I had walked from Embankment to Waterloo, met a colleague, we then continued together to our meeting.
It was only when I consulted my app that I realised I was stll on my original journey and time was running out!
Had I been inspected en route on SWR I might have also risked a penalty fare.
So I alighted at Wimbledon, touched out and touched in, and problem averted. But only just - by about 5 mins.
But it was a faff and it’s only because I checked my app that I realised i had to do this.

I would like a day travelcard to be available as an Oyster product. You can travel and don’t need to think.

(The day cap still attracts penalties on top of the cap).
My understanding is that the limit of 3 resolutions per month relates only to self resolution online. If you have a genuine reason to resolve more than that then calling the helpdesk will result in resolutions. Also, if they do let you resolve both halves of an exceeded maximum time journey then you are likely to end up paying for it twice, so in that case I think calling the helpdesk is preferable.

Embankment to Waterloo (and especially Waterloo East) is one of those OSIs that I wish they didn't provide. But 60 odd people did Waterloo every day in Feb/March according to the latest report from TfL, analysed at https://oysterfares.com/most-used-osis-march-2023/.
 

Bletchleyite

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My understanding is that the limit of 3 resolutions per month relates only to self resolution online. If you have a genuine reason to resolve more than that then calling the helpdesk will result in resolutions. Also, if they do let you resolve both halves of an exceeded maximum time journey then you are likely to end up paying for it twice, so in that case I think calling the helpdesk is preferable.

Embankment to Waterloo (and especially Waterloo East) is one of those OSIs that I wish they didn't provide. But 60 odd people did Waterloo every day in Feb/March according to the latest report from TfL, analysed at https://oysterfares.com/most-used-osis-march-2023/.

It would sort out a lot of these if they added extra time to a journey after an OSI, i.e. treated it as two journeys in a time sense but as one in a fare sense. Perhaps Oyster can't do that but "new Oyster" really should be able to.

You could sort even more if you additionally assumed that if you touch back in on the same day following a failure to touch out that the previous journey ended where you touched in, and just allow that to be corrected if wrong, as in the vast majority of cases it will be correct. Similarly a failed touch in is very, very likely to be the same zone as the previous touch out that day or the day before (if there was one) was. Reporting could pick up on people doing it repeatedly to either highlight a reader fault (if most if not all people are doing it at one location) or fraud (if only one or two are).
 

jon81uk

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It would sort out a lot of these if they added extra time to a journey after an OSI, i.e. treated it as two journeys in a time sense but as one in a fare sense. Perhaps Oyster can't do that but "new Oyster" really should be able to.

You could sort even more if you additionally assumed that if you touch back in on the same day following a failure to touch out that the previous journey ended where you touched in, and just allow that to be corrected if wrong, as in the vast majority of cases it will be correct. Similarly a failed touch in is very, very likely to be the same zone as the previous touch out that day or the day before (if there was one) was. Reporting could pick up on people doing it repeatedly to either highlight a reader fault (if most if not all people are doing it at one location) or fraud (if only one or two are).
If you regularly do the same journey and then one day miss a touch the system does automatically correct it to where you would normally touch out anyway.
 
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Wolfie

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If you regularly do the same journey and then one day miss a touch the system does automatically correct it to where you would normally to y out anyway.
It's pretty good (at least 80%) good at doing that. Occasionally (software updates?) it ceases working for a short period for no obvious reason though.
 

crablab

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I have received an extremely expeditious response from my local councillor responsible for transport matters.

He was unaware of the proposals (surprisingly, given the proximity to London in the commuter belt) and is accordingly arranging a response to the TfL consultation in opposition.

I strongly recommend those who are likewise concerned about this proposal to contact their local councillors & MP.
 

SussexSeagull

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Ironically it's cheaper to buy a single to London Victoria for £14.75 and use London Underground for £2.70.
Which is even more daft. I know TFL are under the impression they only need to give six months notice but there will need to be some serious rethinking of ticketing and ticketing prices for National Rail services going to and through London.
 

Wolfie

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Which is even more daft. I know TFL are under the impression they only need to give six months notice but there will need to be some serious rethinking of ticketing and ticketing prices for National Rail services going to and through London.
The criteria for withdrawal from the scheme will be included in the original agreement.
 

Starmill

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Which is even more daft. I know TFL are under the impression they only need to give six months notice but there will need to be some serious rethinking of ticketing and ticketing prices for National Rail services going to and through London.
Indeed, it makes very little sense that a ticket to London Victoria or as far as Rotherhithe is £14.75, but to London Terminals or London Thameslink is £25.50. Kentish Town drops the price to £19.75. The most likely solution if these were evened out however would be that all tickets would become £25.50. TfL wouldn't be doing any of this work though and they are unlikely to be bothered whether it's done or not.
 

JonathanH

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Indeed, it makes very little sense that a ticket to London Victoria or as far as Rotherhithe is £14.75, but to London Terminals or London Thameslink is £25.50. Kentish Town drops the price to £19.75.
The difference is that there is a super-off peak ticket for flows historically priced by Southern from Durrington, and a super off-peak day travelcard, but no super off-peak fare to 'London Thameslink', historically priced by Thameslink / FCC.

There are other places on or near to the Brighton line where the fares historically set by Thameslink are cheaper than those historically set by Southern.

Some may think this a mess. Others will be thankful they have had cheaper fares for the last few years, and simplification hasn't occurred.
 

Ken X

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Just to let you know my MP Jeremy Quinn (Horsham) replied today to my email raising the matter Text as follows:-


Thank you for your email of 20th April regarding Transport for London’s Day Travelcard.

As you are aware, the Mayor of London is currently exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards to help generate additional income in line with conditions on TfL’s funding settlement.

I very much appreciate that you are supportive of the Day Travelcard given for reasons of cost and convenience. This is, as you will appreciate, ultimately a decision for TfL. However, a decision has yet been made and I would strongly encourage you to respond to TfL’s consultation on this issue before it closes on 23 May, if you have not done so already, as this will help to inform their decision.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.
 

JonathanH

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Just to let you know my MP Jeremy Quinn (Horsham) replied today to my email raising the matter Text as follows:-
Not getting much support there. Basically saying it is TfL's decision and, although you can tell them you don't like it, they can do what they want.
 

Starmill

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Just to let you know my MP Jeremy Quinn (Horsham) replied today to my email raising the matter Text as follows:-


Thank you for your email of 20th April regarding Transport for London’s Day Travelcard.

As you are aware, the Mayor of London is currently exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards to help generate additional income in line with conditions on TfL’s funding settlement.

I very much appreciate that you are supportive of the Day Travelcard given for reasons of cost and convenience. This is, as you will appreciate, ultimately a decision for TfL. However, a decision has yet been made and I would strongly encourage you to respond to TfL’s consultation on this issue before it closes on 23 May, if you have not done so already, as this will help to inform their decision.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.
Given Horsham is a directly affected area, it would be reasonable to lobby your MP to at the very least write to the Mayor opposing the change. I accept that they may have a policy objection, but I can't possibly think of what it could be so it'd be totally within your right as a constituent to get back to their office asking for a further explanation of if they support the change or not, and why. They owe you that as a minimum.

If you're the sole constituent who's contacted them about the issue then they might be too busy to prioritise this one issue. However as a minimum you're entitled to expect from your MP either a letter in support of your point, or alternatively an explanation of why they're not able to support your point and what they would support instead. This is literally what they're paid for doing.

The outcome is unlikely to be affected by letters from MPs to Mr Khan, or by responses submitted by MPs through the consultation. But that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile.
 

Sm5

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My MP is proactive.

Thank you for emailing me regarding the removal of Zone’s 1-6 travelcards. I appreciate as someone who has used travelcards for many years, a change to oyster cards must be a frustrating move to have to make.

In order to make sure that I can provide you with the best response, I can advise that I have now made representations on your behalf to TFL, to forward your concerns and for their public relations team to respond outlining their latest position on this matter.

I will be back in touch with you as soon as I have received a response from their team.

Thank you again for raising your concern regarding this matter.
 

Hadders

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A load of wibble from my MP

Thank you for contacting me about railway stations.

I understand your concerns and will raise them with my ministerial colleagues at the Department of Transport.

You might find it interesting that, most rail passengers are now able to obtain a smart card or barcode ticket across almost the entire rail network. The Government is accelerating plans to overhaul Britain's railways, ending the fragmentation of the past and bringing the network under single, national leadership in the form of Great British Railways. There will be a simplified ticketing system, as well as significant roll-outs of pay as you go, contactless ticketing and digital ticketing on smartphones. Tickets will be available from a single website, ending the current confusing array of train company sites and establishing a single compensation system in England.

I believe in making it as easy as possible for passengers across the country to travel on our railways.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

Best wishes,
 

JonathanH

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A load of wibble from my MP
I'm not convinced that your MP's researcher does understand your concern. That stuff comes straight out of Grant Shapps's nonsense about the idea that everyone in the South East wants to use Contactless.
 

Hadders

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I'm not convinced that your MP's researcher does understand your concern. That stuff comes straight out of Grant Shapps's nonsense about the idea that everyone in the South East wants to use Contactless.
Agreed. I will be sending an appropriate response when I get chance. I might even quote some fares from Brookmans Park, which already has contactless, as an example of what will happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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A load of wibble from my MP

Copy paste standard responses make me very, very angry. I would be going to Defcon 1 and doing as much as I could to embarrass them for that, e.g. go to the Press, and sending them a very vitriolic response stating that such contempt means I won't be voting for them and will advise others not to.
 

Mark J

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The whole idea is utterly batsh*t.

Not content with penalising drivers with a £12.50 a day charge from an extended ULEZ, Khan is now turning his attention to those on public transport.

Firstly by raising TfL prices by an average of 5.9%, now proposing axing the highly popular one day travelcard.

He seems to want his cake (ULEZ) and also eat it (higher public transport fares). This really isn't on.

How is this a good move to encourage people from cars to public transport?

It will just discourage many people from visiting London and spending their money there if it will cost them a whole lot more. It is also just highlighting his 'green' policies are nothing more than a sham, designed to raise revenue.

A one day ticket from Reading to London with Travelcard is already £29.60 (without railcard discount), just how much more do they think people will stomach just for a day out?
 

Haywain

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A one day ticket from Reading to London with Travelcard is already £29.60 (without railcard discount), just how much more do they think people will stomach just for a day out?
The Off Peak day cap on contactless is £29.60.
 

matt_world2004

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Travelcard revenue is allocated on a per mile basis which favours longer distance national rail services over buses journeys on the tube are also shorter than national rail journeys on average.

Iirc Capping revenue is allocated to the mode which costs money so if you touch in on a bus and are charged £1.75 that bus journey will be allocated £1.75 but if you touch in on southeastern and are charged 0 because you have reached the cap for the day southeastern recieves 0
 

jon81uk

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The whole idea is utterly batsh*t.

Not content with penalising drivers with a £12.50 a day charge from an extended ULEZ, Khan is now turning his attention to those on public transport.

Firstly by raising TfL prices by an average of 5.9%, now proposing axing the highly popular one day travelcard.

He seems to want his cake (ULEZ) and also eat it (higher public transport fares). This really isn't on.

How is this a good move to encourage people from cars to public transport?

It will just discourage many people from visiting London and spending their money there if it will cost them a whole lot more. It is also just highlighting his 'green' policies are nothing more than a sham, designed to raise revenue.

A one day ticket from Reading to London with Travelcard is already £29.60 (without railcard discount), just how much more do they think people will stomach just for a day out?

Its part of the funding conditions from government, TfL needs to get more fare income as the government are not willing to subsidise public transport, whereas most other countries in the world see the benefit of taxes subsidising public transport.
 

Mark J

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Its part of the funding conditions from government, TfL needs to get more fare income as the government are not willing to subsidise public transport, whereas most other countries in the world see the benefit of taxes subsidising public transport.
How is increasing fares and axing popular tickets that encourage more people into London going to raise more revenue? It won't.

People like myself will just turn round and refuse to visit London if it becomes hideously expensive to do so. Meaning TfL won't be getting money from me that I would have previously spent with them, plus the loss of money to the small businesses I support whilst there.

There are many ways that TfL can help plug their black hole of funding. One such example is fare evasion. On my last two visits to London, I've seen half a dozen people push their way through the ticket barriers. If I'm seeing this whilst briefly at a station, how often is this occurring at other times and across the whole network?

Also by only doing single fares, TfL lose out on revenue on later evening services by leaving ticket gates open. People 'in the know' will have learned by now it isn't worth buying a ticket after a certain time in the evening as the ticket gates will be open at both ends. This is particularly true on London Overground, Elizabeth Line and DLR services.

One such example is Paddington to Ealing Broadway post 10pm. Usually I've found the gates open at both ends, with very few swiping in at Paddington and not swiping out at Ealing Broadway.
 

JonathanH

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Iirc Capping revenue is allocated to the mode which costs money so if you touch in on a bus and are charged £1.75 that bus journey will be allocated £1.75 but if you touch in on southeastern and are charged 0 because you have reached the cap for the day southeastern recieves 0
I'm not sure that is true regarding capping, as it would disproportionately allocate the revenue. I think the overall charges for the day are reduced pro-rata to reflect the cap relative to the travel incurred.

How is increasing fares and axing popular tickets that encourage more people into London going to raise more revenue? It won't.
The calculation relates to both revenue share and charging more to some users. If some users pay more it will make up for those who travel less.

TfL will have studied the revenue they get and assessed this decision as being in their interest.

Also by only doing single fares, TfL lose out on revenue on later evening services by leaving ticket gates open. People 'in the know' will have learned by now it isn't worth buying a ticket after a certain time in the evening as the ticket gates will be open at both ends. This is particularly true on London Overground, Elizabeth Line and DLR services.
The majority of users do not do that though. Fare evasion is not a decision to take lightly.
 

Mark J

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What a cavalier attitude towards fare evasion.

It does happen, appears to be increasing and it costing TfL a fair amount each year.

'Not a decision to take lightly.'

When you know full well barriers will be open at both ends after a certain time, with no one checking tickets/cards en route, then many will know not to buy a ticket/tap in and out - as the chance of getting away with doing so is likely to be successful.

In 2020, fare evasion was estimated to cost TfL £116M a year in lost revenue.

Hardly a figure to be sniffed at in these cash strapped times for TfL.
 
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Haywain

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What a cavalier attitude towards fare evasion.

It does happen, appears to be increasing and it costing TfL a fair amount each year.
Yes, and it's nothing to do with the availability of Day Travelcards, because they are available now.
 
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