Irish Rail to Trial eTicketing

[Steddenm]

I was at an Iarnród Éireann presentation tonight about the implementation of new ticketing systems.

It seems that IÉ are going to be trialling eTickets, mobile tickets, expansion of the Leap card across all IÉ services (except Enterprise) and contactless card payments in the Greater Dublin DART and Commuter services.

One of the handouts was a PDF ticket from Cork to London, and the format is a bit strange.

They have no AZTEC or QR codes but they do have a weird blocky barcode, and the ticket is issued in parts. There's a main part of the ticket, a control ticket for the ferry part and what they call "seated booked allocation" print out which shows seat numbers etc reserved.

Unfortunately I can't upload the ticket yet (they have "not for publication/do not copy" printed on them), and the eTicket trial will be for staff PRIV/FIP tickets to start with and then to the public in September.

 

[danm14]

One of the handouts was a PDF ticket from Cork to London, and the format is a bit strange.

They have no AZTEC or QR codes but they do have a weird blocky barcode, and the ticket is issued in parts. There's a main part of the ticket, a control ticket for the ferry part and what they call "seated booked allocation" print out which shows seat numbers etc reserved

I assume this will mean an end to the handwritten tickets currently used for Rail and Sail journeys from Ireland to the UK - and consequently will result in an end to open return tickets, the implementation of break of journey restrictions and discounted tickets being booked train only - changes which happened to UK-issued tickets over a decade ago, but Irish-issued tickets have continued to escape.

More concerningly, I suspect there will be a number of passengers connecting onto operators other than those which will see them on a regular basis - i.e. TfW, Avanti, GWR and perhaps Northern - wrongly threatened with penalty fares and/or prosecution, especially in the first few weeks and months, if the tickets switch to a PDF that cannot be verified in the UK.

At least the current format, even if completely unfamiliar to some staff, is so self-evidently genuine that issues are exceptionally rare. A PDF ticket format that can easily be edited to allow travel on any train in the country and cannot be validated by anyone would, on the other hand, be a fare evader's dream.

 

[Flying Snail]

I assume this will mean an end to the handwritten tickets currently used for Rail and Sail journeys from Ireland to the UK - and consequently will result in an end to open return tickets, the implementation of break of journey restrictions and discounted tickets being booked train only - changes which happened to UK-issued tickets over a decade ago, but Irish-issued tickets have continued to escape.

More concerningly, I suspect there will be a number of passengers connecting onto operators other than those which will see them on a regular basis - i.e. TfW, Avanti, GWR and perhaps Northern - wrongly threatened with penalty fares and/or prosecution, especially in the first few weeks and months, if the tickets switch to a PDF that cannot be verified in the UK.

At least the current format, even if completely unfamiliar to some staff, is so self-evidently genuine that issues are exceptionally rare. A PDF ticket format that can easily be edited to allow travel on any train in the country and cannot be validated by anyone would, on the other hand, be a fare evader's dream.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for IE to be able to issue tickets with British reservations anytime soon, never mind the two ferry companies who have never engaged with any railway ticketing systems.

 

[danm14]

I wouldn't be holding my breath for IE to be able to issue tickets with British reservations anytime soon, never mind the two ferry companies who have never engaged with any railway ticketing systems.

I would have agreed with you, however @Steddenm claimed in the past to have seen some sort of Irish Rail booking system that generated an (admittedly absolutely laughable and ridiculous) itinerary from Dublin to London via Chester, Newton-le-Willows and Newcastle - so perhaps it is not quite so far away.

RailSail Ireland to UK

Earlier on today at Connolly Station in Dublin I enquired about the Sail Rail single from Dublin to London Euston - priced at €47. The guy in the ticket office had a poke about on his computer and came back with the following ticket and route: RailSail Single - Economy €47.00 Dublin City (CIV)...

www.railforums.co.uk

There was some unusual talk out of the blue late last year from the Irish and French Governments about Sail and Rail tickets between Ireland and France (presumably via Cherbourg) being introduced - perhaps this is related?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I had the same news at the World Passenger Conference in Amsterdam last Novemeberr. Couldn't believe they were just starting to issue eTickets.

 

[island]

Yes, Iarnród Éireann has had e-ticket issuance capability since 2019 when they finally dispensed with the services of their ancient Almex ticket office and Crouzet portable machines, and implemented common stock rather than having 10 different colours of ticket for adult/student/child single/return/season plus free travel (with yet more additional colours for certain Dublin suburban tickets). However, it has to date stuck resolutely with CCST from ticket machines and booking offices. Barcode readers are starting to appear on gatelines now though, and print at home/mobile tickets are said to be close at hand for domestic journeys with verification for staff via an Android app.

Onboard tickets are sold on plain thermal paper with Aztec codes, mainly relevant on the Nenagh and Limerick Junction-Waterford lines. Early tickets used QR codes but our Irish counterparts at Railusers Ireland pointed out issues with counterfeiting and offline verification. The codes are apparently an EU standard format.

Will they be verifiable by GB on-train staff? That is of course the £64,000 question. I expect issues similar to those arising with BritRail/InterRail mobile passes.

 

[XAM2175]

They have no AZTEC or QR codes but they do have a weird blocky barcode ...

PDF417, perhaps?

(and btw, Aztec is a normal proper noun, not an abbreviation or acronym)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Named after the central square looking like a pyramid, according to Wiki.

Named after the resemblance of the central finder pattern to an Aztec pyramid, Aztec Code has the potential to use less space than other matrix barcodes because it does not require a surrounding blank "quiet zone".

 

[Steddenm]

The codes they are using on their trial tickets are:


The system they are implementing is apparently linked to the same booking system used by the FirstGroup operators, and Trainline eTickets can already be sold at some (not all) ticket offices in RoI. These are printed on standard A4 paper. I think they are just agents for Trainline.

The new ticketing system can also sell tickets to any NI station instead of just Newry, Portadown, Lisburn, Lurgan and Belfast.

Whether or not this goes ahead is a different story as the PowerPoint presentation they have given out says "due to be implemented by Q3 2027" and is subject to new TOD machines being installed across the network, which will be "like those used by rail operator, Northern, in the UK" and those about to be installed across the NIR network.

I think, if all goes ahead, then the RailSail tickets will be sold via Trainline and either emailed to the customer or printed at the station. Stena today at Dublin Port had a notice in the ticket office stating that any RailSail tickets issued as a PDF must be printed and cannot be shown on a device.

The RailSail from ROI stations to French, Belgian, Spanish and Dutch stations will be sold by Irish Ferries and Stena Line and not by IÉ. This effectively removes the UK as a "landbridge" and routes from Rosslare Europort.

I have asked Transport for Ireland (TFI) on what I can put here and that is what they've said. The full PowerPoint will be available on the TFI website for public consultation in July.

 

[WAB]

Blimey, TOD on the way in over the Irish Sea whilst it's on the way out over here? They really are slow on the uptake...

 

[Steddenm]

Blimey, TOD on the way in over the Irish Sea whilst it's on the way out over here? They really are slow on the uptake...

They've had TVM for a while and collection on their self service machines, but the backend is really slow and not very secure.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They've had TVM for a while and collection on their self service machines, but the backend is really slow and not very secure.

Not secure so they're implementing the same system used by Northern ?

 

[Steddenm]

Not secure so they're implementing the same system used by Northern ?

They don't require a credit/debit card to collect tickets, just the collection code. A lot of IÉ ticket machines are in cabinets that have an automated roller shutter that locks it out of use at times deemed unnecessary to use such as at night.

 

[Starmill]

Blimey, TOD on the way in over the Irish Sea whilst it's on the way out over here? They really are slow on the uptake...

To be fair while that is true, Merseyrail have only just introduced ToD too. Avanti West Coast are even trialling a ToD collection only machine at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They don't require a credit/debit card to collect tickets, just the collection code. A lot of IÉ ticket machines are in cabinets that have an automated roller shutter that locks it out of use at times deemed unnecessary to use such as at night.

You didn't hear about the cyber attack then ?

 

[danm14]

Sorry, but none of this adds up. Colour me quite skeptical of some of the claims.

The system they are implementing is apparently linked to the same booking system used by the FirstGroup operators, and Trainline eTickets can already be sold at some (not all) ticket offices in RoI. These are printed on standard A4 paper. I think they are just agents for Trainline.

FirstGroup use Worldline's system, not Trainline. In any case, why would Irish Rail be issuing Trainline eTickets? Trainline don't sell any eTickets that can be used on the island of Ireland. They also don't sell Rail and Sail tickets as eTickets.

The new ticketing system can also sell tickets to any NI station instead of just Newry, Portadown, Lisburn, Lurgan and Belfast.

So can the existing one, as could the previous one from the 80s.

Stena today at Dublin Port had a notice in the ticket office stating that any RailSail tickets issued as a PDF must be printed and cannot be shown on a device

Rail and Sail tickets cannot be issued as PDFs, they are either traditional paper tickets if issued in the UK, or handwritten carbon paper coupons in a booklet if issued in Ireland. If you buy them over the phone or (Irish Ferries only) online you simply get a reference number to quote and there is most certainly no requirement to print anything.

 

[XAM2175]

The codes they are using on their trial tickets are:

That looks like MicroPDF417, a derivative of the one I posted earlier.

 

[island]

The new ticketing system can also sell tickets to any NI station instead of just Newry, Portadown, Lisburn, Lurgan and Belfast.

IÉ's Almex ticket office machines were always able to sell tickets to any NI station if the clerk knew (or was willing to look up) the station codes. I have several tickets from Dublin to Sydenham where some friends live. I assume that function was carried forward to the Sqills machines, although haven't had cause to try and get them.

 

[danm14]

IÉ's Almex ticket office machines were always able to sell tickets to any NI station if the clerk knew (or was willing to look up) the station codes. I have several tickets from Dublin to Sydenham where some friends live. I assume that function was carried forward to the Sqills machines, although haven't had cause to try and get them.

If it hasn't, it reduces the rights of those under the age of 66 eligible for a Free Travel Pass (as well as those over 66 who have not applied for the separate pass required for internal NI travel)

An Irish Free Travel Pass can be used to travel from any point in the Republic to any point in Northern Ireland or vice versa - subject to the entire cross-border journey being on one ticket, and the journey being by one mode (bus or train). If you rebook at e.g. Belfast, you pay for the remainder of the journey.

On that basis, I assume it has. I'm pretty certain it must have been because a lot of Free Travel Pass holders use this facility - both legitimately as part of genuine cross-border journeys and illegitimately to make journeys entirely within NI, e.g. people from North Donegal getting Free Travel tickets from Londonderry to Dundalk but getting off in Belfast.

 

[island]

I don't know whether an ROI free travel pass can be used to obtain a ticket from Derry to Dundalk from NIR. Return tickets (valid for a month) can be issued by IÉ for cross-border journeys.

 

[Flying Snail]

I don't know whether an ROI free travel pass can be used to obtain a ticket from Derry to Dundalk from NIR. Return tickets (valid for a month) can be issued by IÉ for cross-border journeys.

They are valid for it so it should be issued.

It is internal NIR/Ulsterbus/Metro travel that only NI free travel smartcards are valid for, valid ROI Pensioners having to separately apply for the NI card as well as their Irish free pass.

 

[danm14]

I don't know whether an ROI free travel pass can be used to obtain a ticket from Derry to Dundalk from NIR. Return tickets (valid for a month) can be issued by IÉ for cross-border journeys.

Republic of Ireland Free Travel Passes (all of which are valid for cross-border travel) can be used to obtain a ticket from a location in Northern Ireland to a location in the Republic or vice versa; but not between two locations in Northern Ireland.

Likewise, Northern Ireland Blind SmartPasses and War Disablement SmartPasses (all other SmartPasses are NI-only or All Ireland) can be used to obtain a ticket from a location in the Republic to a location in Northern Ireland or vice versa; but not between two locations in the Republic.

There is no requirement for a cross-border free travel journey to commence on the same side of the border as the pass was issued in.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened for @danm14 to provide an update

 

[danm14]

Just a short update - although this thread has not been updated in some time I felt it worthwhile to clarify the above regarding availability of tickets to Free Travel Pass holders now that I can verify it myself. There is very little information available online regarding the Cross-Border Free Travel Scheme, and awareness of entitlements to cross-border travel among passholders in Ireland - in particular those who are under 66 (e.g. disabled, carers and those medically unfit to drive) and so do not qualify for the ROI Senior SmartPass for internal NI travel - borders on non-existent. Indeed many believe they cannot travel to Northern Ireland at all, or can travel to Belfast but need to pay for the train back - and exceptionally few are aware of their entitlement to make cross-border journeys to any destination, not only those reachable on direct bus or train routes from the Republic.

Irish Rail's new ticketing system is indeed able to issue tickets to Northern Ireland stations other than those directly served by the Enterprise. They are available both as walk-up cash fares (albeit still from ticket offices only, not machines) and to Free Travel Pass holders.

NI Railways are indeed able to issue tickets to holders of ROI Free Travel Passes for journeys beginning in Northern Ireland. The availability of monthly return tickets from Irish Rail is solely for convenience - there is no requirement to hold a return ticket to travel out of Northern Ireland, and it is perfectly legitimate to commence a journey in Northern Ireland not having arrived there by rail. These are still issued as handwritten tickets from a carbon paper booklet, just as they have been since cross-border travel for passholders was introduced around 30 years ago. These are similar to those issued to such passengers for cross-border bus journeys - but unlike their bus equivalent are strong card rather than thin paper (likely due to their possible one-month rather than one-day validity) and bear a security seal and the signature and staff number of the clerk who issued them.

I have attached photographs of both such types of tickets recently issued to me as a Free Travel Pass holder in case anyone is curious.

 

[D6130]

Just a short update - although this thread has not been updated in some time I felt it worthwhile to clarify the above regarding availability of tickets to Free Travel Pass holders now that I can verify it myself. There is very little information available online regarding the Cross-Border Free Travel Scheme, and awareness of entitlements to cross-border travel among passholders in Ireland - in particular those who are under 66 (e.g. disabled, carers and those medically unfit to drive) and so do not qualify for the ROI Senior SmartPass for internal NI travel - borders on non-existent. Indeed many believe they cannot travel to Northern Ireland at all, or can travel to Belfast but need to pay for the train back - and exceptionally few are aware of their entitlement to make cross-border journeys to any destination, not only those reachable on direct bus or train routes from the Republic.

Irish Rail's new ticketing system is indeed able to issue tickets to Northern Ireland stations other than those directly served by the Enterprise. They are available both as walk-up cash fares (albeit still from ticket offices only, not machines) and to Free Travel Pass holders.

NI Railways are indeed able to issue tickets to holders of ROI Free Travel Passes for journeys beginning in Northern Ireland. The availability of monthly return tickets from Irish Rail is solely for convenience - there is no requirement to hold a return ticket to travel out of Northern Ireland, and it is perfectly legitimate to commence a journey in Northern Ireland not having arrived there by rail. These are still issued as handwritten tickets from a carbon paper booklet, just as they have been since cross-border travel for passholders was introduced around 30 years ago. These are similar to those issued to such passengers for cross-border bus journeys - but unlike their bus equivalent are strong card rather than thin paper (likely due to their possible one-month rather than one-day validity) and bear a security seal and the signature and staff number of the clerk who issued them.

I have attached photographs of both such types of tickets recently issued to me as a Free Travel Pass holder in case anyone is curious.

Interesting that the NIR-issued paper ticket is marked 'CIV'....but the IE'-issued card ticket isn't.

 

[danm14]

Interesting that the NIR-issued paper ticket is marked 'CIV'....but the IE'-issued card ticket isn't.

Tickets from the old Irish Rail ticket office system were marked CIV, but not the new system - and I don't think it's ever been marked on tickets from ticket machines. I suspect it is merely an oversight.

 

[island]

Tickets from the old Irish Rail ticket office system were marked CIV, but not the new system - and I don't think it's ever been marked on tickets from ticket machines.

Yes, although by a kludge of putting “CIV” at the end of the station name. Hence Belfast Central (RIP) was rendered “BELFAST CNTRL. CIV” within the 18-character limit.

I suspect it is merely an oversight.

Indeed.