Northern 158

[eternal142]

I am wondering, while it was some time ago, when Northern got all the TPX 158's (of which they now seem to have quite a lot) what happened to whatever they replaced??

Every single time recently I have headed to Yorkshire for many Caldervale, Hull York & York - Leeds journeys I have traveled on a 158. Yet I wonder what was used on these services before all the 158's arrived, specifically why my daily Hexham line return is relentlessly run by a 142? Was there no displaced 150/155/156's that could have been despatched Northwards.

I don't completely hate 142's just find they can be allocated to pretty inappropriate routes, where a 15x would be better suited (perhaps with occasional 142 for nostalgia sake).

 

[387star]

There was a time when they were seriously thinking of replacing a large number of pacers with the resulting cascade but this didn't happen although some pacers were stepped down for a few months

 

[Anvil1984]

Northern didnt get all the TPE 158s, just a few, some of them went to FGW dont know how it exactly divvied up to be fair

 

[MCR247]

8 went to SWT and were renumbered 159/1s

 

[387star]

Northern got a large proportion of ex Central units although on time of transfer they were working for ATW (replaced by 175s cascaded from TPE) and TPE itself already had some ex Central units which went to Northern. They also recieved a bunch of Wessex units and a small number of ATW ex Wales and Borders units AFAIK
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I don't remember Northern recieving any TPE (Northern Spirit) branded units...
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Also Northern had some already with the franchise I believe from FNW and WYPTE
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some TPE units also went to EMT

 

[MCR247]

some TPE units also went to EMT

They originally went to Central, so EMT inherited them, and then the centre cars were ripped out and given to Northern

 

[387star]

Oh! thats's it! yeah the centre cars were inserted in the ex FNW units which used to carry gold star livery but were never refurbished by FNW


Never understood why FGW replaced Alphaline units with TPE units perhaps it was the ROSCO or just DFT's infamous micro-management

 

[eternal142]

Very true...interesting comments thanks guys. I had assumed seen as Northern seem to have quite a lot (less the WYPTE and NorthWestern) that the bulk would have come from TPX.

Never a simple answer where the DFT involved eh.

I want to know what impact the 185's had on rolling stock, somewhere these 51 units must have something else off the radar, or maybe not!

 

[ainsworth74]

I want to know what impact the 185's had on rolling stock, somewhere these 51 units must have something else off the radar, or maybe not!

What do you mean? Do you mean what they replaced because that would be the 158s being discussed above... I'm confused...

 

[MCR247]

What do you mean? Do you mean what they replaced because that would be the 158s being discussed above... I'm confused...

I think he wants to know what the 158s replaced after they left TPE...

 

[tbtc]

I want to know what impact the 185's had on rolling stock, somewhere these 51 units must have something else off the radar, or maybe not!

Various answers to that. On the North Western routes they released Voyagers (so Virgin can run an hourly Chester service) and 175s (so ATW can run more north Wales - south Wales services). On the North East/ South routes they released the 158s discussed above (to FGW etc). Depends how far you want to go.

Bear in mind that Northern also lost some 158s to ScotRail - these were meant to head back south when the Bathgate line was electrified, but ScotRail are keeping them.

Also worth pointing out that the old Transpennine routes were bigger in some respects (Sunderland/ Bradford/ Burnley etc), so not everything moved to 185 operation.

 

[eternal142]

sorry, I meant through a process of cascading from the 185's, the 158's will have replaced something... somewhere down the bottom of the pile something (perhaps a 142) should have gone.

I beginning to think my question is a hell of lot more complicated than I originally thought...

 

[YorkshireBear]

i think some 158's are used inappropriately as well as 142's to be honest

 

[eternal142]

Various answers to that. On the North Western routes they released Voyagers (so Virgin can run an hourly Chester service) and 175s (so ATW can run more north Wales - south Wales services). On the North East/ South routes they released the 158s discussed above (to FGW etc). Depends how far you want to go.

Bear in mind that Northern also lost some 158s to ScotRail - these were meant to head back south when the Bathgate line was electrified, but ScotRail are keeping them.

Also worth pointing out that the old Transpennine routes were bigger in some respects (Sunderland/ Bradford/ Burnley etc), so not everything moved to 185 operation.

This answers my question...really interesting thanks.
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i think some 158's are used inappropriately as well as 142's to be honest

agreed, pehaps some of the non Manchester Caldervale metro trains....not really necessary for a 158, equally Middlesbro - Carlisle not really suited to a pacer.

 

[MCR247]

somewhere down the bottom of the pile something (perhaps a 142) should have gone.

Why? We were and still are in a stock shortage..

 

[sprinterguy]

Why? We were and still are in a stock shortage..

Yeah, you’ve hit the nail on the head there: The stock shortage for Northerns’ two constituent parts was even more acute nearer the turn of the millennium than it is now, so the additional 158s are just plugging the gaps that were already there before rather than freeing anything up.

The only stock to fall out the bottom of the Regional Railways North East & North West area since privatisation has been the 101s on the west side, and the twenty 141s on the east side, which both went at about the same time, 2001-2, long before the 158 cascade. The Northern area local franchises often resorted to loco hauled rakes to plug the gaps during this time before the additional 158s arrived: EWS 37s on the North Wales Coast with FNW, Fragonset 31s working Manchester to Blackpool, and later on the top and tail EWS 37s on the Settle & Carlisle with ATN.

Northern have gained twenty seven additional 158s, and eight additional centre cars (from TPE) that have been fitted into 158752 to 158759 which were North West Trains units back in the day so are part of the long term resident fleet. Except for a couple of 153s that moved to EMT and the seven 142s that went to FGW (Which were counterbalanced by the three 180s), I can’t think of anything that moved away from Northern after they gained these units: I’m having difficulty getting my head round the notion that FNW/ATN were short of that many units beforehand, I don’t recall there being that many cancellations that would suggest such a vast shortage.

 

[tbtc]

agreed, pehaps some of the non Manchester Caldervale metro trains....not really necessary for a 158, equally Middlesbro - Carlisle not really suited to a pacer.

I agree that the stoppers on the Calder Valley don't suit 158s, nor does the Selby - Bradford - Wakefield "merry go round". The trouble is that (to make up for having no units spare) Northern have scheduled the Manchester - Halifax - Leeds "fast" service, the Manchester - Halifax - Leeds "slow" service, the Wakefield - Bradford - Leeds service and the Blackpool - York service into one massive interworked muddle (so that some services from Bradford terminate in Leeds eastbound, but the west bound service starts from Selby etc), and the allocation is a muddle of Pacers and Sprinters (so that the biggest trains are used on the peak services where the capacity is most needed).

Sorry if this sounds a bit confusing, but it seems a logistical headache due to the need to squeeze resources as hard as possible. Ideally I'd have Pacers on the Wakefield - Huddersfield - Bradford service and 158s on the faster Manchester services (with 155s/156s on the others), but there aren't enough units spare to do that (and ensure that each route keeps its allocation)
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Northern have gained twenty seven additional 158s, and eight additional centre cars (from TPE) that have been fitted into 158752 to 158759 which were North West Trains units back in the day so are part of the long term resident fleet. Except for a couple of 153s that moved to EMT and the seven 142s that went to FGW (Which were counterbalanced by the three 180s), I can’t think of anything that moved away from Northern after they gained these units: I’m having difficulty getting my head round the notion that FNW/ATN were short of that many units beforehand, I don’t recall there being that many cancellations that would suggest such a vast shortage.

Some frequencies have been increased. For example the Barnsley service (each hour) used to be

• Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds (all stops)
• Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield (all stops)
• Sheffield - Barnsley - Huddersfield (all stops)

Now we have

• Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds (all stops)
• Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Leeds (semi fast)
• Nottingham - Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Leeds (semi fast)
• Sheffield - Barnsley - Huddersfield (all stops)

Leeds - Mirfield used to be an hourly stopper (to Huddersfield), now its half hourly (one to Huddersfield, one to Brighouse/ Todmorden/ Rochdale/ Manchester).

Diverting the Manchester Airport - Liverpool service away from Warrington meant the Oxford Road Pacer service to Liverpool was doubled (before the change it was one Pacer from Oxford Road to Warrington and one from Warrington to Liverpool IIRC, now it is a half hourly service).

Growing demand means some routes need to be doubled up now that a single unit could run before.

However, at the same time the Oldham trams freed up some Pacers. All swings and roundabouts.

That said, I think the staffing problems which FNW and ATW had sometimes covered up the true lack of stock availability.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have gained twenty seven additional 158s, and eight additional centre cars (from TPE) that have been fitted into 158752 to 158759 which were North West Trains units back in the day so are part of the long term resident fleet. Except for a couple of 153s that moved to EMT and the seven 142s that went to FGW (Which were counterbalanced by the three 180s), I can’t think of anything that moved away from Northern after they gained these units

The extra 158s Northern received directly and indirectly replaced some 156s on the East Side, which went West and then directly and indirectly replaced some 142s on the West side.

12x142s then went to FGW, which in theory were 'surplus to requirements' in practice they could still be used to combat overcrowding in the North West but no-one paid to keep the units.

The Dec 2007 timetable changes effectively saw the end to the Manchester Airport to Windermere service. This created problems on the already overcrowded Manchester-Bolton-Preston corridor so an additional hourly service was added in Dec 2008. At the same time the 323s were taken off Hazel Grove-Manchester services to allow enhancements to Airport services and to run an hourly Stoke service. Additionally Northern were also required to run a Leeds-Nottingham service. Obviously, Northern needed more units to do all this so they got 5x142s back (FGW still needed the rest) and the only other units that could be sourced were the 180s so they had to do.

I’m having difficulty getting my head round the notion that FNW/ATN were short of that many units beforehand, I don’t recall there being that many cancellations that would suggest such a vast shortage.

There were a hell of a lot of cancellations with both FNW and ATN but these were mainly down to staff shortages and industrial action.

Also during the refurbishment of Manchester Picc and Leeds stations less units than normal could be stabled there during the day so they ran to tighter diagrams than usual which in turn created poor punctuality and cancellations.
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Diverting the Manchester Airport - Liverpool service away from Warrington meant the Oxford Road Pacer service to Liverpool was doubled (before the change it was one Pacer from Oxford Road to Warrington and one from Warrington to Liverpool IIRC, now it is a half hourly service).

I don't think any trains terminated at Oxford Road until around 2004. A Liverpool stopper used to start/terminate at Piccadilly platform 14a?

However, at the same time the Oldham trams freed up some Pacers. All swings and roundabouts.

Like most Victoria services Northern used a mixture of DMUs on the Oldham Loop. The service being run by 5x142s was a myth which came from the fact that 5x142s weren't refurbished by FNW because they would have been got rid of when the Oldham Loop was converted. However, all 5 of these remain in service some with Northern, others with FGW.

 

[sprinterguy]

The extra 158s Northern received directly and indirectly replaced some 156s on the East Side, which went West and then directly and indirectly replaced some 142s on the West side.

12x142s then went to FGW, which in theory were 'surplus to requirements' in practice they could still be used to combat overcrowding in the North West but no-one paid to keep the units.

The Dec 2007 timetable changes effectively saw the end to the Manchester Airport to Windermere service. This created problems on the already overcrowded Manchester-Bolton-Preston corridor so an additional hourly service was added in Dec 2008. At the same time the 323s were taken off Hazel Grove-Manchester services to allow enhancements to Airport services and to run an hourly Stoke service. Additionally Northern were also required to run a Leeds-Nottingham service. Obviously, Northern needed more units to do all this so they got 5x142s back (FGW still needed the rest) and the only other units that could be sourced were the 180s so they had to do.

There were a hell of a lot of cancellations with both FNW and ATN but these were mainly down to staff shortages and industrial action.

Also during the refurbishment of Manchester Picc and Leeds stations less units than normal could be stabled there during the day so they ran to tighter diagrams than usual which in turn created poor punctuality and cancellations.

Thanks very much for the information, that's a very thorough post that's doing me some good in working out just what's gone in with the recent(ish) shuffles of Northern stock between depots.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think any trains terminated at Oxford Road until around 2004. A Liverpool stopper used to start/terminate at Piccadilly platform 14a?

I thought the Warrington line used to have a stopper from Manchester and one from Liverpool which both terminated somewhere inbetween (back when the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service ran "semi fast" via Warrington, before it was sent via Chat Moss instead)

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the Warrington line used to have a stopper from Manchester and one from Liverpool which both terminated somewhere inbetween (back when the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service ran "semi fast" via Warrington, before it was sent via Chat Moss instead)

There was definetly an all-stops or almost all stops service to Liverpool via Warrington from Piccadilly which left Piccadilly a few minutes after the CT service between 2001 and 2004. I didn't use that line in the 1990s so maybe it was a Liverpool-Warrington service that later got extended to Piccadilly?

 

[Philip]

Where are the 158s (158/9s I think) that were sold off by TPE and haven't been leased by anyone else currently lodging? Have some been scrapped?

 

[WillPS]

All 158s were cascaded, some after a short period in warm storage.

The 3-car 158s which SWT took on became 159s.

 

[Philip]

All 158s were cascaded, some after a short period in warm storage.

The 3-car 158s which SWT took on became 159s.

Where is 158973 then these days? On locoscene it's last sighting was February 2007...

 

[northwichcat]

Where is 158973 then these days? On locoscene it's last sighting was February 2007...

A 'new' 158 appeared called 158888 which is with South West Trains, which I think may be as a result of units being reformed and could be where your 158973 has disappeared.

 

[Arriva158]

A 'new' 158 appeared called 158888 which is with South West Trains, which I think may be as a result of units being reformed and could be where your 158973 has disappeared.

158888 is formed from 158802.

 

[sprinterguy]

Where is 158973 then these days? On locoscene it's last sighting was February 2007...

158973 was a hybrid three car set formed of two car unit 158773 and carriage 57743 from 158743. Transpennine Express formed up six hybrid three car units numbered 158971 to 158976 using two car 158s with an additional carriage made up from one half of three of the ex-Scotrail units that arrived with TPE in 2000 (158737/43/4). Just the same as FGWs' hybrid 15895X series units. 158971-158796 were disbanded when they were cascaded from TPE and returned to their original two carriage formation: In the case of 158973, 158773 is now with EMT and 158743 is with SWT as 158882.

There are no 158s either off lease or that have been scrapped.

 

[387star]

I remember an interview in RAIL with the former manager of Northern who told us 142s would be stepped down and indeed some were... for several months. I guess the above explains why this never happened

 

[bluenoxid]

Another drain on Northern has been the VHF, which crippled Northern on some routes and required more diagrams (and more trains) to operate the same frequency.

There are some issues with Northern operations that could do with being tackled. The Grand Tour is certainly one of them, and I am waiting for the day when they stop this Westgate **** around and run it through to Leeds and on to Selby instead. The problem is that every change is so difficult to put in.

 

[eternal142]

Thanks for the information guys, really interesting. Quite a history our 158's have had and nowhere need the simplified idea I had in my head!!
I would have thought that 51 185’s would have make quite an impact, but the arguments above have put me right! I guess we are stuck with 142’s for a while in the North East for some time! I wish they would be done up like the 144’s on the Scunthorpe stopper, so at least you get a more comfortable seat for the trolley dash that will follow - except without the intense red!

Another drain on Northern has been the VHF, which crippled Northern on some routes and required more diagrams (and more trains) to operate the same frequency.

There are some issues with Northern operations that could do with being tackled. The Grand Tour is certainly one of them, and I am waiting for the day when they stop this Westgate **** around and run it through to Leeds and on to Selby instead. The problem is that every change is so difficult to put in.

Sorry to ask but what do you mean by VHF? Also is Grand Tour the Selby to everywhere else in West Yorkshire route? If so like the name. I wonder if this could be extended from Kirkgate on the Pontefract line (meaning you could get in just about every town & city in West Yorkshire in one journey)