Appeal Help!! Google Wallet

[Damilia]

Hi Guys,

I could really use some help..

I just received a fine for the first time in my life and I am livid. I tapped in a TfL bus this morning using my Google Wallet. An inspector came in later, checked my phone and said he can't see that my card was used for this so he needs to fine me. I was adamant I tapped in and we went back and forth for a LONG time. I went into the app and showed him from the activities that I tapped in and the date and route (granted, I didn't know I could tap into each activity and see even more details) and he still said "Well, I still don't know if it was this particular journey or something earlier, don't know what you've been doing" at 8.30 in the morning

Anyways, he still decided to fine me and said I can appeal.

Now, I can see all the details of that activity, I tapped at 8.38am and I can see the route number, however, I noticed that TfL charges are always completed and charged on my card a few days later. So when I'll see this in my bank statement I will only see the amount, the fact that it's a "Settled Google transaction" and a date which won't correspond with the original travel date. I will also be able to see a completed transaction from the Google Wallet app, but again without any further details

My question is, do I have a leg to stand on when I appeal??

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Guys,

I could really use some help..

I just received a fine for the first time in my life and I am livid. I tapped in a TfL bus this morning using my Google Wallet. An inspector came in later, checked my phone and said he can't see that my card was used for this so he needs to fine me. I was adamant I tapped in and we went back and forth for a LONG time. I went into the app and showed him from the activities that I tapped in and the date and route (granted, I didn't know I could tap into each activity and see even more details) and he still said "Well, I still don't know if it was this particular journey or something earlier, don't know what you've been doing" at 8.30 in the morning

Anyways, he still decided to fine me and said I can appeal.

Now, I can see all the details of that activity, I tapped at 8.38am and I can see the route number, however, I noticed that TfL charges are always completed and charged on my card a few days later. So when I'll see this in my bank statement I will only see the amount, the fact that it's a "Settled Google transaction" and a date which won't correspond with the original travel date. I will also be able to see a completed transaction from the Google Wallet app, but again without any further details

My question is, do I have a leg to stand on when I appeal??

Hi and welcome - I don't know anything about google pay but IIRC there was a case on here recently (only a few weeks ago at most) which sounded rather similar - tho I think it was TfL payment for a london overground train where much the same thing happened.

The person pursued it via advice form here and it was resolved in their favour.

Might be worth you looking for the thread and having a read of that.

Also I suspect other people with more expertise on this will be along to give advice on this one before too long.

EDIT - I think it was this one that I was thinking of, have a read to see if you think similarities that may help you :

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-the-london-overground.244506/#post-6142428

 

[MrJeeves]

This seems strange. I was under the impression that the RPIs can't check contactless cards as data for these aren't updated live on the backend in the same way that Oyster is. Is this different for buses?

 

[AdamWW]

This seems strange. I was under the impression that the RPIs can't check contactless cards as data for these aren't updated live on the backend in the same way that Oyster is. Is this different for buses?

This does sound very much like the earlier case, where it seems that the "card" showed as invalid and therefore "couldn't" have been used to tap in. And the fact that there was evidence of it having actually been used was considered irrelevant somehow.

 

[MrJeeves]

This does sound very much like the earlier case, where it seems that the "card" showed as invalid and therefore "couldn't" have been used to tap in. And the fact that there was evidence of it having actually been used was considered irrelevant somehow.

Ah, yes, I remember the thread now!

 

[Damilia]

Hi and welcome - I don't know anything about google pay but IIRC there was a case on here recently (only a few weeks ago at most) which sounded rather similar - tho I think it was TfL payment for a london overground train where much the same thing happened.

The person pursued it via advice form here and it was resolved in their favour.

Might be worth you looking for the thread and having a read of that.

Also I suspect other people with more expertise on this will be along to give advice on this one before too long.

EDIT - I think it was this one that I was thinking of, have a read to see if you think similarities that may help you :

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-the-london-overground.244506/#post-6142428

Thanks for this, I had a look and I'm hoping it will be as straightforward! I'm just genuinely concerned as I know the transactions on my bank statement won't correlate, as they never do. I always get a consolidated charge a few days later with no further information, so I will need whoever is investigating it to show some common sense..

 

[matt_world2004]

This seems strange. I was under the impression that the RPIs can't check contactless cards as data for these aren't updated live on the backend in the same way that Oyster is. Is this different for buses?

They can on buses because they download all the touch ins on the reader before starting.

 

[AdamWW]

This seems strange. I was under the impression that the RPIs can't check contactless cards as data for these aren't updated live on the backend in the same way that Oyster is. Is this different for buses?

I think the way they "inspect" credit/debit cards is by recording that the card was presented to the inspector, then when the records are reconciled looking to see if it corresponds to a valid touch in.
I suppose if the "card" won't accept the inspection, there is no way of doing this. But an automatic penalty doesn't quite seem like the appropriate way of solving the problem.

(Edit: except the post that came in while I was writing this explains that it works differently on buses)

 

[MrJeeves]

They can on buses because they download all the touch ins on the reader before starting.

This is what I imagined might be the case.

 

[Haywain]

Now, I can see all the details of that activity, I tapped at 8.38am and I can see the route number, however, I noticed that TfL charges are always completed and charged on my card a few days later. So when I'll see this in my bank statement I will only see the amount, the fact that it's a "Settled Google transaction" and a date which won't correspond with the original travel date. I will also be able to see a completed transaction from the Google Wallet app, but again without any further details

If you register your contactless card (the one used for GooglePay) on TfL's website you will be able to go into that record tomorrow and it should show all touches from today and a break down of the charges. Your bank account will simply show the one consolidated payment though.

 

[matt_world2004]

Usually when they suspect you of fare evasion on the buses they remove you from the bus..make sure then you get a refund for the journey taken if this has been the case , because its caused by their faulty technology/ incompetence

 

[gray1404]

Make sure you screenshot whatever data you can see TODAY in case it was to disappear.

 

[cactustwirly]

It's also up to TfL to prove that you didn't touch in

 

[Haywain]

It's also up to TfL to prove that you didn't touch in

Which they do by generating a list of cards that have touched in.

 

[Damilia]

If you register your contactless card (the one used for GooglePay) on TfL's website you will be able to go into that record tomorrow and it should show all touches from today and a break down of the charges. Your bank account will simply show the one consolidated payment though.

Thanks so much for suggesting this!! I just did that and I can already see my journey from yesterday, even though it still doesn't show in my bank statement. Fingers crossed I can go back in tomorrow and see today's journey!!

 

[Hadders]

As stated above this isn't the first time we've seen with revenue ispections and Google Pay. From what I can see there is no reason why you shouldn't win your appeal.

 

[Damilia]

Update: I still can't see the April 19th journeys on payment history on my TfL account, but I can see the "Failed Revenue Inspection" from the morning and my bus trip in the evening (I did it to test what will happen) on the Journey history.

On the activity page of the Google wallet app on the other hand I can still see both my bus trips from 19 April..

I'm going to wait until tomorrow and see what is charged and appeal regardless.

Surely, it's not my fault something went wrong if I've done my part and tapped in and it's is blatantly obvious I did, right?

 

[gray1404]

Make sure you screenshot the information you can see on the Google wallet app in case it was to disappear. It may end up being the only evidence you have to go on in an appeal.

 

[Starmill]

Were you allowed to complete your journey without delay?

Once you've won your appeal, you can write a complaint to TfL. You could ask them for a free bus journey in the future or a refund to the value of the bus fare you've paid, claiming they've failed to deliver the service with the care and skill required under the Consumer Rights Act. You could also ask for some compensation in the form of vouchers or pay as you go credit, or cash, for your time and trouble. There's no harm asking for this but you may receive nothing.

If as part of the response to your complaint you don't receive an apology for the mistake and an assurance that it won't happen again, with an explanation of how it occurred, you can refer the matter to London Travelwatch, who will be likely to investigate further. At the same time you could ask your MP's office to write to TfL to request an explanation of how this mistake has been made and what is being done to put it right. If you live in London you could ask a member of the Assembly to write to TfL on your behalf.

 

[pelli]

I tapped in a TfL bus this morning using my Google Wallet. An inspector came in later, checked my phone and said he can't see that my card was used for this so he needs to fine me. I was adamant I tapped in and we went back and forth for a LONG time. I went into the app and showed him from the activities that I tapped in and the date and route (granted, I didn't know I could tap into each activity and see even more details) and he still said "Well, I still don't know if it was this particular journey or something earlier, don't know what you've been doing" at 8.30 in the morning

Update: I still can't see the April 19th journeys on payment history on my TfL account, but I can see the "Failed Revenue Inspection" from the morning and my bus trip in the evening (I did it to test what will happen) on the Journey history.

On the activity page of the Google wallet app on the other hand I can still see both my bus trips from 19 April..

Just to rule out the small possibility that it's another "known" issue unrelated to Google Wallet: Can you confirm whether you boarded at the first stop for the bus or not? If so, and in the unlikely event that the driver let you tap on before they had set up the ticket machine properly for its next journey, then your tap would have been registered for the previous journey instead, as happened to Bletchleyite once:

I've had an attempt to PF me on a bus when I had touched in, notably. It seems what had happened was that the driver had pulled up to the stop at Euston (it was a 68 starting there) with the ticket machine still logged into the previous journey, so the touch-in was deleted when he logged it into the correct one.

 

[Damilia]

Just to rule out the small possibility that it's another "known" issue unrelated to Google Wallet: Can you confirm whether you boarded at the first stop for the bus or not? If so, and in the unlikely event that the driver let you tap on before they had set up the ticket machine properly for its next journey, then your tap would have been registered for the previous journey instead, as happened to Bletchleyite once:

I didn't board at the first stop, just a normal one. I also checked the payment history on my TfL account today and it doesn't show the payment from the morning, just the evening

However, I still have the screenshot from the Google wallet which shows the activity, that I tapped into the bus at 8.38am, before the inspection. I am not sure if there was a glitch or not, but that cannot be my fault because I did my part.

I've appealed today and I'll update once I hear back, fingers crossed!

 

[Starmill]

I didn't board at the first stop, just a normal one. I also checked the payment history on my TfL account today and it doesn't show the payment from the morning, just the evening

However, I still have the screenshot from the Google wallet which shows the activity, that I tapped into the bus at 8.38am, before the inspection. I am not sure if there was a glitch or not, but that cannot be my fault because I did my part.

I've appealed today and I'll update once I hear back, fingers crossed!

Try not to worry too much about precisely what caused the problem, as above, it's really for TfL to determine that. It would just have been possibly useful if you were to second guess them.

If you're certain you touched in, and you say that you are, the Penalty Fare is incorrect, and as you've some form of evidence of touching in (not that it's a necessity) your appeal is overwhelmingly likely to be upheld. Once you have that in writing, if you'd like to, you can pursue the truth through some of the means I suggested above, or other means. We'll be happy to give further advice at that stage if you like. Of course you could also choose to drop it once you have the letter saying your PF appeal is successful - it'd be totally your choice.

 

[Damilia]

Thanks everyone for the help! I just got the response to my appeal and it has been allowed and the Penalty cancelled.

I didn't receive any apology or reasons why it happened.

I'm not sure if I want to take it further, but it's good to know I have options and at least I know I don't have to pay the penalty.

 

[MrJeeves]

Thanks everyone for the help! I just got the response to my appeal and it has been allowed and the Penalty cancelled.

I didn't receive any apology or reasons why it happened.

I'm not sure if I want to take it further, but it's good to know I have options and at least I know I don't have to pay the penalty.

I'm glad you (rightly) got it thrown out!

Up to you if you take it any further, but it might help kick TfL into realising the wider issue here.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for letting us know. A good result, but nothing less than I would have expected.

The concern is that this is the second time within a couple of weeks, that we’re aware of, that a Penalty Fare involving Google Wallet having to be cancelled. TfL really need to have a hard look at Penalty Fares issued that involve Google Wallet and consider cancelling them en-masse.

 

[stuu]

TfL need to make sure that Ticket Inspectors know that Google Wallet does not give your actual card number to the ticket machines, so comparing a person's actual card to a list from the machine will never show that you have tapped in and cannot be used for a penalty fare. Apple Pay is the same

 

[clagmonster]

Update: I still can't see the April 19th journeys on payment history on my TfL account, but I can see the "Failed Revenue Inspection" from the morning and my bus trip in the evening (I did it to test what will happen) on the Journey history.

On the activity page of the Google wallet app on the other hand I can still see both my bus trips from 19 April..

I'm going to wait until tomorrow and see what is charged and appeal regardless.

Surely, it's not my fault something went wrong if I've done my part and tapped in and it's is blatantly obvious I did, right?

How much was debited from your account for the failed revenue inspection?

 

[James H]

If you live in Greater London I would suggest asking your local London Assembly member (or a friendly pan-London member of the assembly) to raise questions about this matter at City Hall

 

[Starmill]

Thanks everyone for the help! I just got the response to my appeal and it has been allowed and the Penalty cancelled.

I didn't receive any apology or reasons why it happened.

I'm not sure if I want to take it further, but it's good to know I have options and at least I know I don't have to pay the penalty.

Good stuff!! As you say, it's 100% your choice whether to write back or to simply take the winning appeal. If you do want to write back we can help with that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

TfL really need to have a hard look at Penalty Fares issued that involve Google Wallet and consider cancelling them en-masse.

Agreed. It would be good if this issue were to be brought to the attention of London Travelwatch and members of the Assembly in my view.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

TfL need to make sure that Ticket Inspectors know that Google Wallet does not give your actual card number to the ticket machines, so comparing a person's actual card to a list from the machine will never show that you have tapped in and cannot be used for a penalty fare. Apple Pay is the same

It's astonishing that a workaround for this wasn't developed before the new revenue inspection devices went live. It's a serious dereliction of their duty not to have noticed it, or to have noticed it but not done anything about it.

 

[stuu]

It's astonishing that a workaround for this wasn't developed before the new revenue inspection devices went live. It's a serious dereliction of their duty not to have noticed it, or to have noticed it but not done anything about it.

Yes it's been known for years... I first found out when trying to get a refund in a shop in 2018. Given TfL have done lots of publicity with both Apple Pay and Google Wallet, they should be up to speed with how they actually work