Exactly. The Mayor has little choice but to play the game Ministers have set him. There's not much point in having a go at him for that (and none at all if you're not even a London resident).
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TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards
- Thread starter Mojo
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I remember when we used to go down to reception at work and they had a ticket machine to issue CCST!
He is begging them for money, so of course they have conditions!
jon81uk
Member
If TfL was given enough money to maintain the roads in the first place instead of needing to use Underground fare income to maintain roads then they wouldn’t need to ask.
What remains unclear is where that £40 million comes from:
1) How much is from net extra payments they expect people will be making once anticipated behavioural changes are taking into account?
1a) How much comes from conning people into paying twice for the National Rail element by deliberately forcing you to mix-and-match your ticket formats while not offering a way to consolidate them?
2) How much is transfer of revenue that is currently allocated to TOCs but which would now end up with TfL even if there was no change to the total each person was paying?
And then how does the timing of this interact with:
3) The long-delayed rolling out of railcard discounts onto contactless?
4) The rolling out of contactless/smartcard ticketing across a wider area?
In particular in respect of the elimination of fares that won't then need to be supported by those rollouts.
When will TfL be transparent about its out-boundary add-on fare elements used with capping? Perhaps it can help its case by publishing how travelcard revenue gets split either in general or through some representative examples?
When will the public sector give up this sort of stupid infighting over revenue distribution that leads to perverse outcomes and focus instead on changes that attract more passengers onto public transport so everyone benefits?
This is the wrong solution however you look at it.
1) How much is from net extra payments they expect people will be making once anticipated behavioural changes are taking into account?
1a) How much comes from conning people into paying twice for the National Rail element by deliberately forcing you to mix-and-match your ticket formats while not offering a way to consolidate them?
2) How much is transfer of revenue that is currently allocated to TOCs but which would now end up with TfL even if there was no change to the total each person was paying?
And then how does the timing of this interact with:
3) The long-delayed rolling out of railcard discounts onto contactless?
4) The rolling out of contactless/smartcard ticketing across a wider area?
In particular in respect of the elimination of fares that won't then need to be supported by those rollouts.
When will TfL be transparent about its out-boundary add-on fare elements used with capping? Perhaps it can help its case by publishing how travelcard revenue gets split either in general or through some representative examples?
When will the public sector give up this sort of stupid infighting over revenue distribution that leads to perverse outcomes and focus instead on changes that attract more passengers onto public transport so everyone benefits?
This is the wrong solution however you look at it.
Edsmith
Member
None of it's the mayor's fault eh? You'll have me in tears in a minute
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a result of central Government wishing not to pay TfL a load of extra money to cover for lost income due to reduced commuting and money lost during COVID.
It's not really anybody's "fault", though I'd be interested to know what other options were considered.
Edsmith
Member
I think TfL have had more than enough public money thrown at them.
That one is down to the DfT. It wasn't how TfL set things up until the Train Companies identified the resulting revenue loss and imposed higher add on fare elements.
It might not be ignored that this will be a fundamental part of the fare structure for Project Oval in order to recognise the discrepancy between fare caps within Zone 6 and those outside. There aren't any transparent ways which enable TfL to have a Zone 1-6 cap of £14.90 and the DfT operator to have a Zone 1-Merstham cap of £35.40, when the fare from Coulsdon South to Merstham is £4.00 each way.
My inference is that each flow on Oyster and Contactless has a revenue share identified. When a cap applies, the reduction in revenue is applied uniformly to the charges raised for the day. There is a very interesting spreadsheet released along with the FoI request for the Redhill line boundary fare issue which shows how the money was allocated to each point to point journey for each daily user.
ThameslinkUser
Member
On what basis? Certainly not on the basis of how much TfL contributes GVA. If we want to go down the route of only operating profitable systems with no subsidy or investment, be prepared to lose pretty much any branch line.
Can you provide a link please?
It is in the Zip file to one of the responses to your FoI request of 26 May 2016 - referenced as detail of CPAY allocations. I was able to identify my own journeys on the spreadsheet, as they are shown for each user who reached a cap at Redhill in a given week.
Correspondance and meeting minutes relating to changes in contactless capping - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London
On Monday 16th May you changed the way the contactless system calculated caps and extension fares when journeys were made involving stations between Merstham and Gatwick Airport inclusive. Please provide copies of any correspondance between TfL and either the Department of Transport or Govia...
miklcct
Established Member
The mistake was that TfL didn't write into the agreement and promote to the passenger that the CPAY extension fare was always the extra-zonal single fare, which was the actual behaviour within zone 1-6.
Then once the system went live, it was politically impossible to pull that but it gave leeway for the TOC to mess up the fare structure.
gabrielhj07
Established Member
Money which, at least in part TfL would have had, had it not frozen its fares in 2016. Can't all be laid at government's door.
In addition to responding to the consultation, I will be writing to my MP about this. I think the more grief MPs get about this, particularly Conservative MPs in marginal seats, the more chance there is on them putting some pressure on the DfT to stop this from happening.
miklcct
Established Member
TfL expected that the additional productivity and increased ridership would fund the fare freeze.
COVID was just a temporary thing, and ridership would eventually return to a level if it didn't exist unless there is evidence that COVID has permanently destroyed the economy.
ThameslinkUser
Member
Total of £600m.
TfL running costs throughout Covid: £600m/month
Length of delay by DfT in offering an initial long-term funding settlement: at least 05 April 2022 - 22 July 2023. DfT then refused to provide an extension of approx 1 month to allow TfL to read over the letter in detail and come to a conclusion.
DfT dithering and incompetence directly caused much much more than £600m (not to mention indirect costs of delaying and uncertainty)
Seems that's the view of those who are relevant to his role, yes. The party of government are extraordinarily unpopular in London. Mr Khan is moderately popular.
Why do you have a problem with him?
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The bus industry outside of London has been made the grants without Ministers imposing micro-management on their policies. Same goes for all of the light railways.
But, because Ministers just can't stand the fact that they're going to lose nearly all of their London MPs at the next election, while Mr Khan remains moderately popular, they're just desperate to pick a fight with him.
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johncrossley
Established Member
The Brighton line is facing a double whammy by being excluded from the expansion of contactless and the withdrawal of Day Travelcards.
SussexSeagull
Member
I tend to get a One Day Travelcard whenever I visit to London but in all honesty I tend to just do one tube journey from Victoria or London Bridge to wherever I am going and back again so probably actually don't save much money if any.
However I went to Stamford Bridge to watch Brighton play last Saturday and due to engineering works I couldn't change at Clapham Junction to get to West Brompton. In the brave new world suggested presumably I could get a point to point ticket there in the future as it is a National Rail station?
As it happened I had to go into London Bridge and travel across to west London. A pain but no financial hardship due to my one day travelcard.
If in the future this scenario happens will ticket exchange be allowed on the underground or will TFL just wash their hands and say bad luck on having to travel during engineering works and you have to pay to use our service?
However I went to Stamford Bridge to watch Brighton play last Saturday and due to engineering works I couldn't change at Clapham Junction to get to West Brompton. In the brave new world suggested presumably I could get a point to point ticket there in the future as it is a National Rail station?
As it happened I had to go into London Bridge and travel across to west London. A pain but no financial hardship due to my one day travelcard.
If in the future this scenario happens will ticket exchange be allowed on the underground or will TFL just wash their hands and say bad luck on having to travel during engineering works and you have to pay to use our service?
CPAY's already valid out as far as Gatwick Airport, of course, which feels like a natural break point - albeit closer to London than the indicative map in the 2019 consultation showed for other TOCs. Not that that's any consolation for those living further South, admittedly.
Huh? Where has it been announced that the Brighton line will be excluded from the expansion of Contactless?
You would just pay more if the route taken requires it, as with PAYG you have made no contract in advance to have the ability to make any particular journey.
SussexSeagull
Member
As for scrapping cross London transfers, that would stop me being able to buy a combined ticket from, say, Worthing to Liverpool as there would be a bit in the middle it couldn't take me through. However I could change onto Thameslink and get a Derby or Leicester service from St Pancras entirely using National Rail services.
Frankly unworkable.
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Then surely they have to suspend all National Rail ticket sales to, in this example, West Brompton when engineering works are on or run a bus replacement service?
Frankly unworkable.
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Then surely they have to suspend all National Rail ticket sales to, in this example, West Brompton when engineering works are on or run a bus replacement service?
There is always a (slow) replacement bus service between East Croydon and Clapham Junction when the rail services don't run.
Anyway, at the moment there are too many unknowns. The one-day travelcard will be abolished but until the implementation plans for Project Oval are known, what the substitute fare arrangements will be is not at all clear.
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Funny you should mention zone 2. There has been in advert recently on LBC where TfL is promoting using the tube for a day out with mates. They quote the capped fare for zones 1 and 2.
Perhaps they prefer people to travel in zones 1 and 2, as it is cheaper*.
*buses also valid in other zones.
johncrossley
Established Member
Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards
TfL have won the DfT's contract to expand their contactless payment system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, which also includes the requirement to allow Railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards Phase 1 Contactless payments in 53 stations – majority due...
www.railforums.co.uk
shows no extension beyond Gatwick.
That map was indicated to be out of date as noted by an informed post later in the same thread.Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards
TfL have won the DfT's contract to expand their contactless payment system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, which also includes the requirement to allow Railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards Phase 1 Contactless payments in 53 stations – majority due...
shows no extension beyond Gatwick.
Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards
Huh? No. InterCity services (delivered by NS) are not surcharged - you pay the same if you get on a Sprinter or an InterCity. One just takes longer. There are different operators in some areas (open access, or concession) and for those you do need to check out with NS and then in with the other...
www.railforums.co.uk
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SussexSeagull
Member
Which would need to be dramatically increased if this plan ever came to fruition, meaning more Diesel buses in ULEZ.
Would be annoying but I can see how it would work for Underground services as they are self contained. Some of the overground services, like the one I outlined, are embedded into the wider rail network and are only really under the control of TFL for historical and logistical reasons. If London choose to, almost literally, take their train set home with them then they should be expecting push back from the rest of the country.
miklcct
Established Member
If this happens I'd advocate London independence as the Central Government policies don't take Londoner's benefit into consideration. Southeastern metro is already an example.
If we can keep all the taxes in London we can definitely fund a world-class transport system.
Also in many other aspects the interest of Londoners and the country are completely opposite as well like EU for example.
I wonder if they saw a limited number shift to Uber, not bother at all, car share with friends, go somewhere else and saw limited shift there tooo, trouble is lots of limited shifts add up.
As a rail enthusiast I buy dozens of day travelcards a year. Ive already concluded:
i. on family stuff Uber to London is cheaper.
ii. on personal nights out, uber is easier than dealing with lost late night services
iii. On enthusiast trips, I can revert to what i did in lockdown… find bridges, passes etc.
if tfl doesnt want my small contribution, fair enough.
People always have options, even if planners think they don’t.
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I think this is spot on.
its becoming harder to have a night out in London, later services have already been axed.
making it harder to have a flexible night out isnt going to win Passengers.
uber is the winner.
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Tap in, wait 10 mins or so for your EL to arrive, beyond Paddington.
Take a an EL from before Paddington to Farringdon, that arrives just after a TL to Sutton thats gone, 20 or so mins
wait 15 mins at Farringdon for a TL via LBG In the evening.
make your way to London Bridge 15 mins
wait 30 minutes at London Bridge for a Sutton train.
find it too is delayed 15 mins
travel for 30mins.
collect your penalty fare at Sutton on arrival.
everything but the last line has happened, because sensibly I had a day travelcard.
evening services are no longer what they used to be, indeed even tube services are less frequent.
for metro, services are ending earlier than they used to.
combine it together, its becoming a less than friendly railway…
for £25 I could have saved all the above, took an uber and be home in 45 mins…so it maybe I only go one way with the family to London on oyster, but come home another in future.. its becoming a hassle, only reason I didnt.. was having the travelcard already And being solo.. a journey I probably would not do in the future if I didnt have a travelcard… so both rationales are a double negative for tfl.
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