XC - Leave our train early and use another company

[Dewedin]

The TM of the 13:05 Edinburgh - Plymouth, heavily loaded on approaching Leeds, suggested that passengers continuing to Wakefield or Sheffield alight and use other services.

Does anyone know if this is company policy and whether XC still claims the Orcats for journeys ending at Wakefield or Sheffield in these circumstances?

 

[Neptune]

The TM of the 13:05 Edinburgh - Plymouth, heavily loaded on approaching Leeds, suggested that passengers continuing to Wakefield or Sheffield alight and use other services.

Does anyone know if this is company policy and whether XC still claims the Orcats for journeys ending at Wakefield or Sheffield in these circumstances?

I’m guessing it was because it was a 4 car vice 9 today. I use it between York and Leeds and it is a busy train with 8 or 9 cars.

 

[swt_passenger]

The TM of the 13:05 Edinburgh - Plymouth, heavily loaded on approaching Leeds, suggested that passengers continuing to Wakefield or Sheffield alight and use other services.

Does anyone know if this is company policy and whether XC still claims the Orcats for journeys ending at Wakefield or Sheffield in these circumstances?

I very much doubt the ORCATS allocations are changed on a capacity basis, train by train. I dare say if a particular service didn’t run for weeks or months on end something might be done to fix it.

 

[Undiscovered]

I can see the reasoning.
There's a lot of trains to Wakefield and Sheffield from Leeds, however not many direct going to the XC ultimate destination.
Passengers can leave at Leeds to get to their destination on a local service in 5-10mins, while those travelling longer from Leeds may have to wait another hour for a train to come through. Passengers for the ultimate destination are prevented from boarding at Leeds as the service is full and standing, only for it to become virtually empty two stops down the line.

 

[Dewedin]

I very much doubt the ORCATS allocations are changed on a capacity basis, train by train. I dare say if a particular service didn’t run for weeks or months on end something might be done to fix it.

The service was running but passengers were being encouraged to get off it. Just looks like XC wanting all their usual revenue without having to carry all their usual passengers.
Would also be interesting to find out if XC would refuse delay repay to any passengers who followed the advice and ended up arriving 30+ minutes later.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Sounds like the TM was trying to make the journey more comfortable for all passengers.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

 

[43066]

The service was running but passengers were being encouraged to get off it. Just looks like XC wanting all their usual revenue without having to carry all their usual passengers.
Would also be interesting to find out if XC would refuse delay repay to any passengers who followed the advice and ended up arriving 30+ minutes later.

Interesting that you jump straight to criticism/assuming the worst. Has it occurred to you that, maybe just maybe, the guard was trying to make things easier for the passengers by making them aware of a way of travelling that avoided severe overcrowding?

What exactly is your objection to this?

 

[Iskra]

Sounds like the TM was trying to make the journey more comfortable for all passengers.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

Advising them on to other trains with poor capacity (Northern services to Sheffield) isn’t improving anything overall. It’s transferring the problem, not solving it.

 

[43066]

Forcing them on to other trains with poor capacity (Northern services to Sheffield) isn’t improving anything overall. It’s transferring the problem, not solving it.

Who exactly was being forced?

 

[Iskra]

Who exactly was being forced?

Edited before you replied It doesn’t detract from the point though does it?

 

[43066]

Edited before you replied It doesn’t detract from the point though does it?

So typical to see this kind of reaction on here, to someone trying to do the right thing by their passengers.

I really hope that TM reads this thread and doesn’t bother trying to be helpful next time…

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

So typical to see this kind of reaction on here, to someone trying to do the right thing by their passengers.

I really hope that TM reads this thread and doesn’t bother trying to be helpful next time…

Okay, but as well all know, some men’s are very revenue-happy, and what would happen if some poor sod got MG11’d for using an XC-only ticket on Northern, supposedly acting on a TM’s advice which can’t be proven - it’s not official ticket acceptance.

As we know, TOC restrictions can’t be excessed away.

 

[wilbers]

Well, for Wakefield at least it would have been a short wait for the next LNER to Wakefield, departed 8 minutes after the XC arrived.

Realtime Trains | 1536 Harrogate to London Kings Cross | 19/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 1536 departure from Harrogate to London Kings Cross on 19/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Iskra]

So typical to see this kind of reaction on here, to someone trying to do the right thing by their passengers.

I really hope that TM reads this thread and doesn’t bother trying to be helpful next time…

It’s not helping at all, it’s moving the problem to be someone else’s and abdicating XC’s responsibility to its passengers.

It’s poor practice at best, and I’m sure contractually ‘iffy’ too.

 

[Lockwood]

Better to squeeze everyone on like sardines than suggest a more comfortable alternative

 

[Iskra]

Better to squeeze everyone on like sardines than suggest a more comfortable alternative

Driving?

 

[Dr Day]

I'd be very surprised if another TOC would bother to dispute the default ORCATS allocation and claim revenue off XC for something like this unless it was a routine occurrence, particularly with all the revenue going to the DfT anyway.

 

[Bungle]

Good grief, this forum at times. Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The TM of a heavy-loaded short-formed long-distance train was obviously just trying to exercise a bit of common sense, in inviting passengers making shorter, more local journeys to use trains that were likely to be less busy. He/she is likely thoroughly uninterested in the revenue situation and far more bothered about the train not becoming dangerously crush-loaded.

Only on here could that be seen as somehow controversial or some sort of disingenuous tactic to collect more revenue without carrying the passengers.

 

[AlterEgo]

whether XC still claims the Orcats for journeys ending at Wakefield or Sheffield in these circumstances?

That's not how ORCATS works.

 

[TUC]

Weary how people see the negative interpretation of everything. Life isn't about conspiracy theories.

 

[dk1]

Sounds sensible to me. Happens quite a lot with overcrowded trains I work where passengers are offered alternative more comfortable services departing either before or a little later.

 

[jamesst]

Good grief, this forum at times. Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The TM of a heavy-loaded short-formed long-distance train was obviously just trying to exercise a bit of common sense, in inviting passengers making shorter, more local journeys to use trains that were likely to be less busy. He/she is likely thoroughly uninterested in the revenue situation and far more bothered about the train not becoming dangerously crush-loaded.

Only on here could that be seen as somehow controversial or some sort of disingenuous tactic to collect more revenue without carrying the passengers.

Welcome to Rail forums, everything's a drama!!

 

[Kite159]

Better to squeeze everyone on like sardines than suggest a more comfortable alternative

Which won't be the 2 coach 195 on the Northern services, as if anything those are even worse for crush loading than the XC services.

Wakefield to use LNER makes sense, assuming XC has agreed ticket acceptance in case a LNER guard decides to take the details of someone trying to use a XC advance to Wakefield on their train, Northern for Sheffield passengers not so much.

 

[michael74]

A lot of swings and roundabouts here...... On the face of it, the TM has done the right thing, but as mentioned up-thread if someone's on a XC Advance all you need is an eager RPI ... XC do not do themselves a lot of favours mind, often curtailing services and literally abandoning PAX and not even liaising with other TOCs control. I had this recently at Bristol, they binned their last service to Plymouth and the TM advised them to get the next GWR service, which was mine and only went to Exeter which arrived after the last train to Plymouth

 

[driverd]

It’s not helping at all, it’s moving the problem to be someone else’s and abdicating XC’s responsibility to its passengers.

It’s poor practice at best, and I’m sure contractually ‘iffy’ too.

But, realistically, what's the solution?

The TM can't pull another 4 coach voyager out of their cash float to tag on the back, so extra capacity is out of the question.

Refunds wouldn't be offered by XC and no one at XC management will give a hoot about it (remember, 2010-2020 XC was 'get on the train if you're lucky' levels of capacity).

So those options out of the window, I don't think there's any harm done by offering anyone who'd care for some more space the option to disembark and take another service. Admittedly, yes, the TM should have specified that you must not be on a train specific ticket, but otherwise, I don't see the problem with a colleague thinking on their feet and doing what they can to help people have a more enjoyable journey (which, in this case, was to offer an alternative option).

 

[robbeech]

Certainly sounds like giving passengers an opportunity was sensible here.

If you’re approaching Leeds from York (or further North) and you’re going to Wakefield and you have the choice of staying on the full and standing train or getting off, waiting 10 minutes and getting a less heavily loaded one and in doing so you also make it more bearable for the people going through to Plymouth then any reasonable person would consider it. Of course, not everyone will be in a position to do that.

The way I see it, the guard has suggested an alternative that could help both passengers that are on the train, and passengers that are wanting to get on the train. If everyone did their bit etc ….

 

[InkyScrolls]

Sounds like the TM was trying to make the journey more comfortable for all passengers.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

Indeed. It's highly likely that the TM had no direct input from 'above' and was relying on his own discretion in making that suggestion. I have certainly done so myself when my train has been overloaded and I know that a) many more are about to board, and b) there's another direct train a few minutes behind to some of the destinations.

 

[DanNCL]

Generally I think this was a good idea. But it’s entirely dependent on this being communicated to the guard on said alternative train so that passengers with advance tickets don’t encounter issues - it should happen but sadly doesn’t always happen in practice.
If this is a regular occurrence however an alternative solution would be needed, for example strengthening the XC service or making the southbound Wakefield calls on XC pick up only.

With the DFT now getting the revenue ORCATs only really makes a difference where open access operators are involved.

A lot of swings and roundabouts here...... On the face of it, the TM has done the right thing, but as mentioned up-thread if someone's on a XC Advance all you need is an eager RPI ... XC do not do themselves a lot of favours mind, often curtailing services and literally abandoning PAX and not even liaising with other TOCs control. I had this recently at Bristol, they binned their last service to Plymouth and the TM advised them to get the next GWR service, which was mine and only went to Exeter which arrived after the last train to Plymouth

I’ve had the exact opposite experience in the North East, XC don’t usually leave passengers stranded and XC control routinely liases with LNER control. They’re miles ahead of TPE in that regard.

 

[AG1994]

It’s a bit sad that people (presumed enthusiasts) will go out of their way to potentially get railway workers in trouble.

You could have very easily asked this question without essentially allowing identification of the exact crew member in question. Posts like these are the exact reason many drivers and guards now refuse to deviate from the norm as whenever you try to help you’re put on social media and then taken in for tea and biscuits without tea and biscuits.

 

[dk1]

Good grief, this forum at times. Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The TM of a heavy-loaded short-formed long-distance train was obviously just trying to exercise a bit of common sense, in inviting passengers making shorter, more local journeys to use trains that were likely to be less busy. He/she is likely thoroughly uninterested in the revenue situation and far more bothered about the train not becoming dangerously crush-loaded.

Only on here could that be seen as somehow controversial or some sort of disingenuous tactic to collect more revenue without carrying the passengers.

It’s unbelievable mate. Talk about overreacting.